Hey all... I'm currently changing my system from a 2bbl TBI system to a 4 bbl TBI system......EBL flash.... This is the throttle body I'm going to use.
http://www.compperformancegroupstore...Code=4150Style
It just occured to me that the injectors are below the throttle plates on this one. Am I correct to think I have to use a VRFPR also?
This is actually a good thing. I thought I had to change the linkage so all 4 open at once to avoid staging injectors but I think this will work better just like it is.
Thoughts?

 

:Edit: Like a newb I posted in the wrong sub forum and RBob moved it here. Thanks! :Edit:

 

With the injectors below the throttle plates, yes, need to use a VRFPR. However, do not set up the EBL Flash calibration for one. The BPC - BPC vs VAC table will get the same value in all entries.

Moving to the TBI board...

RBob.

 

Thanks RBob, good to know!..
More specifically I'm changing from a Holley TB with 85 lb injectors at 13 PSI to these 4 injectors which are 85 lb at 58 PSI. Attached is the injector sizing chart which tells me to change the BPW to 128.1.
My old BPW was 124 so that's not much of a change there.
Other mods are being done to the engine as well, cam, bore, stroke, etc. so a new tune will be required.
I plan to start with my old bin file with adjusted BPW and go from there WB tuning.
Sound right?

 

Something isn't correct with Ben's SS. Apparently it isn't taking into account that there are four injectors, not two.

The BPC - BPC vs VAC table values should be half that at 64.

RBob.

 

Thanks again. That would have caused me all kinds of headache to figure out.

 

$800 plus dollars ! That is a big investment.

Have you considered going MPFI? 4B Throttle bodyis $269
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1200-CFM-4-B...sories&vxp=mtr

or $100 for an LS. Then a single plane pro products intake with rails with a Edel elbow.

add the port mod EBL.

Would not MPFI be an upgrade?

 

Yes great ideas thanks! I looked at going the MPFI route also and ended up getting this throttle body in good used condition for quite a savings......My first idea was modified LT1 system but I have space issues in my engine compartment.

 

OK I have to ask, why not set up the EBL for the VRFPR? It seems to me (and yes I know I don't know sh*t) that with the injectors subject to vacuum the fuel pressure needs to vary with the changing vacuum. Could you please elaborate?
Where I'm at now..... I adjusted the BPW to 64 as advised which now that I think about it makes perfect sense. Also the fuel pressure is set to 43psi not the 58 I had in mind. Following the math given on the EBL web site and using a 550 max hp (a generouse guess at this point) 43 should be about right...... Now I'm having a heck of a time getting it to run much at all. If I get it to start which usually requires starting fluid it will only run at higher rpm~ 3000- 5000 and surges badly with or without the vacuum line hooked to the VRFPR.
Oh yeah, the IAC is temporarily plugged,
I think I need to be sure I have the basics right in order to move on.

Anyone have input?
Thanks!

 

BTW "Rick W" and "Binder" are the same person. I thought I had lost "Binder" and re registered.... Somehow my old title is back......

 

With the VRFPR the fuel pressure will vary, but the injector flow rate will not. As the outlets of the injectors are exposed to manifold vacuum. So the BPC table gets all the same value.

Sounds like it is lean. Due to the injectors being high impedance will need to increase the injector offset compensation. They open much slower then TBI injectors. FAST or the distributor should be able to provide the offset data.

RBob.

 

I'll have to get hold of them tomorrow when they're open.....
The injectors are supposed to be a replacement for ls-3 ls-7 engines. Would that be a common value?

 

OK I see what you're saying, the vacuum the injectors are exposed to would be the same vacuum the regulator is exposed to and that's where the fuel is reduced... but... would the regulator reduce the fuel at the same ratio as the injectors would add fuel? I guess I'm asking if I might still need to fine tune this with the The BPC - BPC vs VAC table or should it all be done with the main VE table? Or does it really matter?

 

Searching around on the net it seems FAST doesn't have or won't supply this information as there are many people also asking with no results. I pulled a injector to get the numbers and hopefully find the manufacturer but the numbers don't get me far.
7-22-09-10
140748
80527
1092203233
Fast part number from the web- 30857-1 which is a EV-6 from what I can tell.

 

Found this info on another board where someone was asking for the same information but I don't know how reliable it is.
Also these values are far different than the values in the EBL. The EBL is usec and maybe the other values are ????????

 

OK I converted these values from msec to usec and plugged them in which made things much better. Still not good but better. Attached is a data log of the best results I could get screwing around with it aimlessly. I hooked up a wideband too which showed things were very lean. A couple times during this log I added fuel to the main VE tables bringing it closer to stoich each time but the upper values are over 100 so this will have to be worked out. For now I just need to get it onto a trailer and to the exhaust shop.
Couple things about this log.
Open loop is commanded in the bin which I'll change when tuning VE with NB.
I noticed the IAT is up around 70 deg F but it's like 30 deg outside.
IAC is working during the log as I unblocked it.
Base time is not set as it still doesn't idle well enough to adjust.
Before this log I had disabled AE and launch mode (at different times) in the bin but changed them back as it didn't make things better.

:edit: It looks like I can't upload a .dat file to attach the data log.

 

zip it then attach.

If you post a .dat file only a few folks can look at it. If you attach a .csv file then many can look at it.

RBob.

 

Lets try this though something tells me I zipped the wrong file....
When a dump file is created where is it stored?

 

The dump files are placed into the same folder as the data log that was dumped. You found the .EBL file which is a text output dump.

Couple of things, there may be something loose that is causing false knock, the knock counts keep going up.

Need to increase the idle speed, it appears that it wants to idle at around 650 RPM, with a MAP of 85 KPa. May also need to open the throttle blades some. The IAC is high at 60 - 65 steps. Although this can be due to the engine struggling to run.

This may also be (likely is) a MAP high error. When the ECM thinks the MAP is bad it uses a default value based on TPS & RPM, which is not going to be near correct with the cam that is in that engine.

RBob.

 

Probably the loose exhaust pipes. It's at the shop now being fixed.

Will do!

There were no trouble codes??
Maybe I should adjust some thresholds?
Map hi TPS limit-3.92
Map hi baro limit 1 bar-80.16
Map high baro limit 2 bar-155.61
Map high time limit 5.0

 

This is the one to increase:

Map hi baro limit 1 bar-80.16

After increasing the idle speed it may not be necessary to do so. The higher idle speed will lower the MAP at idle.

RBob.

 

OK here's another question. Based on this,
My old injectors were 85 lb at I think 14 psi (tbi injectors). My new injectors are also 85lb but at 58psi and there are 4 of them leaving me a new injector flow rate of 64.... And I'm now running them at 43 psi.
Given all of this I THINK my math would be 85/64/2=.664?????
It seems to me the ratio should be flow rate/ flow rate/2 because there's twice as many injectors?
The correct answer would be used for a multiplier of the two AE PW tables?

I finally get it back from the exhaust shop tomorrow.

 

That is correct.

RBob.

 

I just ran the EBL utility and it says BPC should be 34???? Should I change it?

 

Well I made some progress after getting it back from the exhaust shop late Saturday. I now have a somewhat unsteady yet reliable idle. Starts fine without starting fluid too. Ignore the WB as it's configured wrong. I need to figure out the "user device" settings. This weekend I'll be able to drive it and do some real tuning.

 

Hi guys,....when i was younger learning the mechanical world i thought i could just put a 4 bbl carb on a 2 bbl until i finally figured out that MORE fuel meant BIGGER valves.In other words a 4bbl wont work with 2bbl heads.So will this be the same with the TBI's? from 2 to 4 ?

 

I think the classic quote "give it what it needs not what you think it should need" or some such. Who was that quote, Grumpy?.... Anyway yes too much TB isn’t going to make it magically more powerful. In this case I installed the larger TB because the 2" 2bbl was barely making it for the old engine and not enough to power this one. This one has larger valves and ported heads too along with other things.

 

No, you likely put the fuel pressure in that it is actually at. You want to use the injector flow rate at the fuel pressure it is set to, then plug in the fuel pressure as 13 psi.

RBob.

 

I just got this reply from FAST (or whoever they foreworded my question to) about the injector offset information.
Kinda bizzare I think but oh well.

 

And today I got an E mail from a different person with the injector information I asked for. It's the same as I posted in post number 15.

 

OK..... Having some troubles configuring the WB but that's not a huge deal. Bigger deal is now I can't get it to go into closed loop. Old engine ran open loop all the time so closed loop hasn't been used in some time. I know when I disabled it I did so by maxing out the CTS threshold. Now when I lower it, it stays in open loop. What am I missing?
Attached is a data log and the .bin file.

 

NB O2 sensor is inactive.

RBob.

 

Inactive like as in broken? I'll get a new one.

 

Broken, not wired in, or cold. Is it a 1-wire and how far from the engine is it? Long tubes will require a heated O2 sensor.

RBob.

 

Its a 3 wire. Just reinstalled this week with new exhaust. I'll recheck plug and wireing before replacing it.

 

Yup O2 had a broken ground wire. Replaced the sensor while I was under there and now all is good. Did a log with o2 working and what has me baffled now is although it's running rich (also shown rich on the LM-1 display) while doing a VE learn there were no corrections to speak of??????
Tomorrow I get to drive it for the first time.

 

Increase the RPM threshold for idle BLM mode:

BLM - Idle Cell RPM Threshold

The bouncy idle is tripping the ECM into BLM cell 2 which resets the INT. That will help in getting a more stable idle.

As for corrections, the BLM for the most part is at 128, same with the INT.

RBob.

 

Bumped it up from 800 to 900. Out in a bit to see how it works.
Thanks again!

 

I'm having a heck of a time with the engine flooding out before it fires. From what I read I should adjust the Crank- AFR table values. I assume these values must be subtracted from the running AFR, correct? So a 1 would lower the crank AFR by 1 point richer?

Edit- I see that's wrong when I open the graph it's actual AFR shown.

 

I noticed that the updated EBL has an auto smoothing function for the VE tables, I don't remember the old version doing that. Is there a way to turn off or adjust the settings for auto smoothing?

:edit: I found this in the instructions...

 

What exactly is "BLM idle cell 2"? Is this a user perameter?......
I have the WB configured now and doing VE learns with it. I'm not sure what's going on but the fueling seems to be just going around in circles. One log it takes away fuel then the next it adds back to those same cells (with smoothing turned off).......
Idle has gotten better than last week but still very irregular. I don't know if the bouncy MAP is as a result of the irregular idle or if it's causing it. I know the cam won't let it idle smoothe but it should be steady at least....
Log attached.

 

BLM cells: 0 is idle, 1 is cruise, and 2 is decel. You can somewhat change parameters to define when to switch between them, but that is all.

You should use some smoothing when doing VE Learns, even if it is only set to 4 - 6.

As for adding then removing and vice-verse, if it occurs in low load areas it is likely due to the injector compensations not being correct. As long as the swings aren't large I'd be done.

RBob.

 

First off , thanks so much for your help!....

So... I need to put a little more time into the tuning but won't be able to do so until maybe the weekend after next. This weekend I have an offroad competition to be at where I won't be near a computer.... It seems to run fairly well in closed loop but surges a bit at times. I would like to try and run it this weekend in closed loop just for safety but if it gets out of hand maybe just unhook the NB O2 to force open loop. Would there be a problem doing this? I'm sure the SES light would come on but would there be any other runability issues different than if I had commanded open loop in the bin?

Same subject sort of.... I haven't put much time into the spark tables either. For what I've run it there's been little knock other than some at idle occasionally but haven't been able to test it at high loads like will happen Saturday. 11.0:1 compression and running on 10% toluene to get octane to about 96 or so. Would it be wise to set some knock settings to extra cautious just in case?

Ideally I would have bought one of your bin switchers last week but it's a little late for that now.

 

Unplugging the O2 sensor will usually force open loop. As long as the fueling is close it is OK to do that.

If you are worried about knock causing damage, can increase the attack rate table (SA - Attack Rate), and possibly the two max retard tables.

The only downside will be if you get false knock, it will kill the performance.

RBob.

 

I don't know what I'm doing but I took a stab at it. These are the changes I made.......

SA attack rate
from.......... to
800 -0.23.... .1.23
1600 -0.23.... 1.23
2400 -0.28 ... 1.28
3200 -0.33 ....1.33
4000 -0.38 ... 1.38
4800 -0.43 ... 1.43
5600 -0.43 ... 1.43
6375 -0.43 ... 1.43

SA PE max retard
from.......... to
800 -8.09... . 18.09
1600 -8.09... 18.09
2400 -8.09... 18.09
3200 -8.09... 18.09
4000 -8.09 ...18.09
4800 -10.02 ..20.02
5600 -10.02 ..20.02
6375 -10.02 .. 20.02

 

It may be easier to set the coolant temp to allow CL to 255dF. It will be OL then.

Swings in BLM and thus VE-L (+ or -) are to be expected for daily hourly changes in ambient temps and baro pressure. It is what it does and is supposed to do. In mornin it may add fuel and in mid afternoon remove.

 

I just had a thought. Would it be possible/ practical/ worthwhile for me to send one of my injectors out to have it tested to see what the compensations really are?

 

Well I thought I would report back that the race went well over the weekend. The engine ran well but I think it could run better given the retarded knock tables and such. I need to take a break from it for a few days before continuing with the tuning.

 

OK I've been running this setup for a while now and overall it seems to work well. I do have a high RPM issue I've not been able to figure out though... As far as syptoms it has a high RPM "pop" out of the exhaust at times under load. EBL dump file shows that the commanded AFR is around 12.5 with AE active but WB shows it's dipping richer than 10.0... Why the heck??
Scroll towards the end of the attached file..

 

Need to reduce the AE, that is what is making the engine go so rich.

RBob.