Ok guys I went and ran the car with the adjusted SA tables and I came up with the knock values below. SO CLOSE! I pulled another .5 out in the areas that knocked and will run again tomorrow.

This run also contained several WOT pulls.

One thing I noticed is that under WOT my trans shifted at like 4k! It cut me short. Any idea what that could be?

O2 Looks in the high 800's to low 900's at WOT with a DC of around 70ish

 

Probably just because he is running 93 and a richer mixture.

 

WOT shifting at 4,000 rpm sounds like a 700r4 with the stock TBI governor in it to me. If you can find a corvette L98 or LT1 governor it will get you closer to the 5,000-5,500 rpm range. I manually shifted the 700r4 in my G20 van if I wanted to run it higher than the 5,200 rpm shifts my stock governor gave.

 

I will probably just live with it for now. So fast, question for you, this morning I did a log in about 80* ambient temp and had 0 knock anywhere.

I just did another log right now in about 95* ambient and I have some knock in the same problem areas. Is there a table for IAT SA compensation?

 

Been forever since I have looked at the EBL .XDF file, but I seem to remember there being a table for it. PM RBob about it. I also seem to remember their being a CTS/IAT blend table as well to help adjust for the heat soak of the intake manifold at and around idle.

 

Saw the IAT/CTS table and the are all set to 9*. Took a little more timing out of it. We'll see how it runs

 

Yep, you found the table. It was set to all 9.84* (basically 10*) as this table has a bias value (also set to 9.84* for no change). This allow SA to be added or subtracted via the table. A value lower then the bias subtracts SA, a value greater then the bias adds SA.

A dump of the log file provides the IAT/CTS temperature value. This value will allow you to change the table in the correct areas.

RBob.

 

I will expand a little on what RBob said. You only want to pull timing at, above and a little below the temperature that you start seeing knock. If your knock sets in at 130*F, you would pull maybe 1* at 115*F, 2* at 130, 3* at 145. 4* at 160. I have found through experimentation on several vehicles that the IAT and CTS compensation tables have a very defined, near straight line to them. As temperature rises, timing needs to retard and vice versa. You are going to need progressively less timing as the IAT and CTS increase to keep from detonating, especially on 87 octane. A little experimentation in this are can allow for the engine to run REALLY nice on cool days, yet still have a safe tune for that run through the mountains on a hot day. In 40*F weather you may find you can run 2-4* more timing than a 70*F day and may have to run 4-6* less on a 110*F run through death valley.

 

I would smooth out the SA in the high load 2000-2800 rpm cells, and not have SA drop like that in the 2800 rpm cells https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...ap-satable.jpg.
Running at the edge of knock does not make best power. I would also try fast355's 059 SA table for comparison, can then always add some degrees to adjust for the lighter vehicle.

A loose TV cable can cause early shifts, stock should be in the 4400 range rpm shifts.

 

Thanks RBOb! RF made some change to it.

Had this happen today
Im close to Fasts tables now.


So today I did a log on the adjusted bin RF sent me this morning. I did a morning run and an afternoon run.

The morning ambient temp was ~78 with the afternoon at ~97. Definitely had knock in the afternoon but not much in the morning. See below.


Also still having starter issues. Turns out the trigger wire that goes to the remote post on the starter solenoid is experiencing voltage drop. It only shows ~8.10 volts!!! Under the dash shows ~10.8!
No idea what i'm going to do to correct this but it is a big issue! Any suggestions?


Afternoon


Morning

 

Is it getting 10 volts on the output side of the VATS relay? Sounds like it may need a new vats relay.

As for you knock counts in hot weather, I really do not see enough counts to concern me in either log. If you use the logg information you can retard the timing a degree or two at the hotter iAT and fix the issue.

 

Its at ~10.7 volts after the ignition switch before vats and before the neutral switch. Then at the post on the starter its at like 8.7

 

Just a little more diagnosis.

At the NSS I disconnected the connector and measured 12v from the green wire attached when cranking. What is weird is that when plugged in or even the terminals jumped, it drops to 10. Again unplugged with no load in cranking position reads 12.

Resistance on the purple wire at the connector was 16.7 ohm.

Probably going to run a new wire in place of the purple from the connector to the starter.

 

Car is down. Discovered today that the upper mounting ear for the alternator bracket broke. Possibly due to the belt I had on it. Was slightly too big and bouncing around under load.

New bracket ordered from Amazon. Replaced belt with a smaller 980K6 Duralast

 

Bracket delivered today. RF and myself will tackle this soon. Also need to wire in external relay for starter trigger.

 

Pics of how the bracket broke? Are you running the braces on the back of your serpentine set up?

 

Good question. I do run the compressor brace but not the alt since the CS144 is bigger. Well if you take a look at this pic here from earlier in the swap. It snapped EXACTLY the same.



So my initial theory was maybe heat and the lack of rear brace. However when I got the bracket today I HAD to put it on. I hate having my car down.

Upon removal I noticed quite a bit of play in the bottom torx bolt that secures the bottom portion of the alternator or in my case caprice bracket. Now here is the kicker. Refer to the picture below, you will see that the hole on the new bracket has a bushing. This takes up the play from the bolt to hole. Without this the play is considerable. This bracket that RF got me didn't have that bushing and I didn't realize it until now! I noticed this play when I installed the CS144, but didn't put the two together. Therefore I can only assume that the added play coupled with a loose belt put stress on the ear and broke it.

Heres the picture.


No its not RF's fault, it probably just got lost somewhere between destinations. My stock bracket had it, but I didn't pay attention to it when I put this one on.

To the install, due to my cooling fan setup I have to drain the radiator and pull it, anytime that I have to take the PS pulley off. Went to harbor freight, picked up a puller/installer and did the job.

It seems that the pulley came off A LOT easier this time than better. Re-Installing it was NIGHT AND DAY compared to when RF and I did it. I did use a generous amount of WD-40 on the pump shaft and pulley hole though. Here's a tip, have someone hold the pulley with the serp belt. Stopping the pulley from turning will help a ton. Took 5 minutes a piece to pull and install the pulley.

Replaced the bracket and buttoned everything back up. There is now ZERO play in the bracket and alternator. Added some brake fluid because the cylinder was nearly empty-worn pads-and did a 20 mile test drive. So far so good.

Car is back up and running! For now......

 

God only knows - I am no angel!! Good progress RS!

//RF

 

So here's the current issues left to address in order of priority

1) External Starter Relay
2) Brake Rebuild
3) Wrap up the tuning
4) Front end steering/suspension rebuild
5) Fuel Pump Whine


Let me elaborate on #5. Since switching to the TPI pump and replacing the fuel tank, filter, and strainer, when on hot days around 90*F+ after about 45 mins of driving, the pump begins to hum very loud. This is considerably louder than normal and overpowers the exhaust at idle and low speeds. Sounds like "wooooooooooooo" very loud.

I've been searching this issue and it seems common with tpi pumps but no real solution.

Fast and RF what do you recommend? Switch back to TBI pump? Will the TBI pump supply the 64LB injectors at 13psi?

 

My Vortec pump sounds like that and so does the CPI Astro pump in the 83. Its a gear rotor pump amd they are louder than a turbine style TBI pump. Honestly I wouldn't worry about it unless it is losing pressure. Your datalogs will show a pressure loss by the BLMs rising way above 128.

 

My concern fast is that it gets louder as it gets hotter. I hear this eventually leads to vapor lock.

Do you recommend replacement? Haven't monitored blms when it occurs

 

When its 100+ outside mine screams, especially after a long trip. I would monitor BLMs and wouldn't waste my time until it eithers shows signs of failure or fails.

 

I see. Hoping it doesnt fail, and if it does then hopefully it wont be at the worst time possible.

Nothing new here. Haven't driven the car in a few days.

 

Fast355, here's a question to ponder over. At WOT from 3200-4300 RPM I get voltage drop 14.1 to 12.9 ish according to the gauge.

At night the cluster will dim during this. It's almost as if the alternator kicks it self off for a second. As soon as you either let off or it shifts, volts come right back up.

 

Its either the belt slipping or the regulator cutting the alternator off. Check to make sure the positive wire is making a good connection. The way the regulator is setup it monitors voltage at the output stud. At higher RPMs an undersized charging wire very possible could cause condition what your are seeing.

 

Well as you recall, its got a CS144 now. The charge wire has been upgraded to a 4 gauge wire direct to the battery. Checked the regulator plug yesterday. Looked good

I just put a smaller belt on it. The one i initially had put on was way too big. This one seems tight.

 

Tuning Update:



So yesterday I began by wiring in an external relay and new trigger wire for the LT1 starter. Recall we were seeing bad voltage drop from the original trigger wire when hot under load. It would engage the solenoid. Ran new trigger wire and used the stock wire to trigger the relay. Problem appears to be solved for now seeing good voltage at the starter although a slight amount of drop. May replace the new wire that I ran with 8 gauge instead of the 10 I used.

I drove the car and did some logging in about 85* ambient temp. Still notice some knock beginning in the 3000-4000 RPM range at this temp. Again at lower ambient temps such as night time this knock isn't really present.

I also notice that the car really comes alive at about 3k which is also where it starts knocking. It may just be the difference in timing, recall we took a lot out of the 2800 range for knock issues.

Also performed VE learns but I think I will discard those changes as CCP is now enabled and VE was just showing subtraction of fuel in certain areas.

Any suggestions out there?

 

Took out a about 1deg in the worst offending areas and added a bit of fuel. Logs indicate some of the knock coming during WOT (TPS =100%) so it comes as no surprise....

//RF

 

Tuning update. Ran the new Bin RF supplied. Looks like we are still getting knock in high ambient temps of greater than 83ish. Lower than that and the knock is gone.

Looks like we need to adjust it to pull back timing when its hot outside. Here are some screen caps for day and night knock along with a zip of the logs.

Day


Night


Here is the link to the zip with the logs. Apparently the limit for files here is 1mb.
L30 Logs_07222014

 

Learning moment for me...

These charts are showing me RPM on the vertical, and vehicle speed on the horizontal?

So what is the goal here, as far as knock counts are concerned? Is zero the target? Do you want to see a little (1s and 2s are OK?) so you know you are pushing the timing as far as it will go, and letting the sensor do it's job, taking timing out to prevent it?

I must admit...while I'm sure you are anxious for this project to be done, and have the work behind you (and I'll be happy for you when it is), I'm really going to miss reading this thread regularly. It's been a great education.

 

Ideally you want to have zero knock counts. You want to continue to subtract small amounts until you achieve that. 1-2 counts are negligible but I would prefer zero in all conditions if possible.

The charts are showing you RPM vs MAP sensor value.

Glad I could help out and educate. It's been fun but the end isn't in sight yet. Tuning is getting close but then its just on to the next thing. Glad someone still reads it.

 

MAP. OK, so this is basically vacuum, or load, right?

What do the number values represent? 20 - 100. That's not a % is it? If so, a & of what?

 

Airflow essentially. Good questions. @RFMaster would be a better person to explain that one.

 

It is kilopascal, it is a metric unit of pressure such as bar or psi. I still read this too RS

 

Manifold Absolute Pressure in kPa

 

Ok so here's an update. Been talking to RBob and RF about correcting the timing issue. Will address that too.

Today I tested out the LT1 starter and new trigger wire I ran for it to solve the hot start issues. I drove the car for about 3 hours in 102*F ambient temp running errands. Had 7 restarts and it cranked like a champ every time!

Now regarding temperature. I've noticed that since I rebuilt this AC it runs the water temp runs a littler warmer than I would like. I was seeing high 220s on the gauge with ebl reading about 6-8* lower. Didnt have that issue before with the AC before the compressor died.

Car is running a taurus fan and has been for years. Never had an issue. Pulls like 3800cfm. Highway cools it down a few degrees but when its already that high it wont come down unless extended highway driving.

Otherwise AC works good. 40*F on highway and 50-55 in town on a 103* day. Not bad.

O and the fuel pump started screaming like a fighter jet about an hour in.

Fast355 or RF any suggestions?

 

How was your cooling system before the swap? How does the Taurus fan fit, does it have a shroud? What is your thermostat? What temp is your fan switch? Is your air dam in place and in good condition?

Spectra for the pump.

 

102* ? Yikes. I hate anything above 80*. I have an idea...move to S.E. Michigan. High here today was 71*.

I wouldn't think it's the Vortec design itself. I towed two summers ago through the mountains heading to Carlisle, PA. 100* + ambient temps, L31 4wd Suburban, about 5500 pounds dry. 42 gallons of gas, camping gear for two, 25' travel trailer at about 6k pounds, a/c blasting, at times on the floor in 2nd gear pulling grades. She got hot, but really only on those extreme long grades. I think I smoked the carrier bearings, as they started getting noisy a year or so after that. But aside from that, no problems. So I can't say that with a big enough radiator, oil and trans coolers, that the L31 is prone to running hot, even under extreme circumstances.

 

Yeah the air dam is intact. Actually brand new. Cooling system seemed adequate prior to install. Taurus fan required some mods to the shroud and to the top brace to fit. Pulls much more air though.

It was hot! The thing with the L30/L31s in trucks is the huge grill they have. As we know camaro has the opposite.

 

Must have missed the Express engine compartment boss. Huge grille, but nowhere for the air to exit. Even with the 34" wide dual Tahoe E-fans blasting on high and a 454 radiator with a 34" x 17.5" x 2.3" radiator core, I am hitting 210*F in the heat in stop and go traffic. But I am also on the floor a lot.

 

With ac?

 

I wonder if your radiator doesn't need a flush. My car had some orange sludge coating everything inside the radiator. I put in a prestone flush and fill kit and flushed the crap out of it. I then filled it with prestone radiator flush and ran it with just water and flush for the months leading up to my swap. It cleaned out really well and I have no cooling issues.

What does the rad look like inside?

 

Dual a/c running R-152a. Condensor covers every inch of the radiator.

I am sure the 4L80E and massive external trans cooler(with 8"thermostatically controlled pusher fan) and in-radiator trans and engine oil coolers dump alot of heat into the cooling system as well.

i have the transmission programmed to keep the converter locked as much as possible 2nd through 4th gear.

 

So in this thing you have three fans? 2 pullers 1 pusher? Crazy. I think one of my issues to is the condenser. Theres a few small sections of fins that are bent closed. But didn't have an issue until post swap. RF says it may be the added hp/tq generating more heat.

Its been drained and refilled about 2-3 times since the swap with the PS pump replacement and bracket replacement. However I did see a tint of orange on the inside IIRC. Think that would make that much of a difference?

 

Yep that would be 3 fans, two pullers and a small pusher. One of the reasons I had to upgrade to a 200 amp AD-244 alternator from a 140 amp CS-144.

I may have the heat buildup issue due to the higher than factory stall speed in the 4L80E, lack of gearing, heavy weight, and aluminum head monster making 400+ HP.

 

Hmm maybe I'm not that bad then. My Taurus fan is just a single 2 speed puller. Any ideas on a fan that pulls more CFM?

 

LT1 or LS1 F-car dual fans. They have a shroud that will totally cover your radiator and fit in a 3rd gen with a little trimming. You can wire them up in series/parallel arrangement with 3 relays like a F-car.

The 3rd gen I setup with the LS1 fans was a L69 carb car. I used a Volvo dual temperature fan switch for engine temperature control. Found a newer 3rd gen car that had a pressure switch in the high pressure liquid line. I tied the ECM controlled A/C clutch relay to the low speed fan relay through a diode and the high pressure switch to the high fan relay.

When you first started the car the fans were off.

Low fans (6v to each through series wiring) were triggered either by turning the a/c on or reaching the coolant temperature for the low side of the volvo switch. 200*F IIRC.

High fans (12v to each through parallel wiring) were triggered if the a/c pressure exceeded 220ish psi or the engine reach 210*F.

I later hooked a normally closed relay to the power side of the relay coil on the fan relays. Tied the normally closed relay to the TCC circuit of the 700r4. Going down the highway with the TCC locked the fans stayed off.

 

That wiring sounds amazing. I would honestly princely just wire it the same way it is now. To a switch.

Well which is a better fit LT1 or LS1? I know rockauto sells the assembly complete IIRC.

 

Did some tuning today. Made adjustments to the IAT/CTS table based off of RBobs suggestions. Noticed less knock in hot ambient temp and a nearly no knock at all at night. Removed another .5 degree in the main SA to address the night know. Also removed another .5 from all areas of IAT/CTS comp to try and cut more hot ambient knock out.

Also noticed the DC hit above 80 about 3 times during wot. Kicked the bin back to RF for fueling adjustments.

Fast355 how do you feel about this knock I'm seeing?


Day Knock

 

Just because you see a knock count does not mean its even retarding the timing. What is the peak and average knock retard in those areas? If you are between 0-2* in those areas with that few counts I wouldn't even worry about it!