OK guys I am about to go to Carb unless I can get this fixed. I have a RICH problem that will not go away. It is so rich it is blowing blue smoke. I have tried to get this corrected with the fuel pressure adjustment. I have had the bulk of the problem at startup


ANY IDEAS?

Brian Felts

 

I see that you've got a custom chip. Are you sure that the BPW is correct?

 

NO I am not sure about anything in it. It was burned my Ed Wright. I will say that the car runs strong and very powerful just so rich there is a slight blue smoke when its cold and under load and idle. I don't care to buy a new chip if thats all it is.



Thanks
Brian

 

I'm about to go carb, too. Having similar problems.

 

I had a custom chip that Ed Wright did too. I can't say anything but good stuff for the operation that he runs. Write him an e-mail and describe the problem your having to him. Get his input. He doesn't have any problem re-doing custom chips if he got one or more parameters wrong on the first try.

 

Well I tried to get him to re-do it for me and they told me that they will not do them for the Holley 670 TBI because they keep coming back and not being consistant . Now if he will not help thats where the carb will have to work.


Thanks
Brian

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't blue smoke an idicator of worn valve seals and/or rings, and if you were rich, it would be black smoke?

Blue smoke at start up is a common symptom of your valve seals starting to go.

 

Brian, if no snow, I'm driving down to your place. Trust me, I'll bring ALL my equipment with me and we'll get it near perfect!
Do you have Excel on your desktop? I hope you do. It'll make tuning faster. I have to work out some timing problems.
I'll give you a call if it looks like a decent day and no snow.
, Jon

 

i believe you're right Ray

 

Blue smoke is burning oil. You have a PCV, valve guide, failed intake gasket, or rings problem.

 

lol, i am about to go to carb too....... if i cannt get this stuff runnig withing 2 weeks my next paycheck is going to a gas guzzeling hunk of metal, but hey if you look at it this way gas milage dont matter if you dont even get any mileage because its "broken" every other day

 

Blue smoke = burning oil
Black smoke = VERY rich
white smoke = coolant

Mine puffs a cloud of blue smoke every time I start it, I'm going to have the valve seals replaced. I'm also gonna have the valvesprings replaced while they're at it, since I got a brand new set off a freind as a trade for a couple year old 10" rockford fosgate sub in a homemade box that dosen't fit my car.

BTW, anybody got a guestimate on how much a valve seal job normally runs?

 

Valve seal job: free (do it yourself! that way you know it's done right.)

 

An over rich conditin will create a blue haze to the exhaust. The Motor in my car is new.


Brian

 

No, an overrich condition will NOT cause a blue haze. I have had cars that were running so rich they'd bring a tear to your eye... the smoke was BLACK, like soot.

Blue smoke is OIL burning.

 

Yup Blue smoke is oil burning.

 

OK then why when the computer goes into closed loop and the BLM and Block learn began to come up does it go away. and the blue smoke will go away as I play with the fuel pressure at any temp.


Brian

 

i agree with everyone that its oil burning.i had an 88 monte carlo that had 142000 on its LG4 and it burned soo much oil at startup that it barely ran,most likley due to the aforementioned valve seals,rings,or both.and it also burned really really rich after it warmed up.it would go from blue smoke at startup to black smoke at warm up.both would go away as it warmed up and all the oil burned up and the seals and rings expanded,and as the choke opened up.why it goes away when your playing with fuel pressure,i cant think of any reason .does it go away when you move it both up and down,or just one way?

 

Well,everyone can agree and follow the leader,but Im sticking to a RICH condition. I WAS THERE YOU WASNT. You can smell the raw fuel coming from the exhaust.You dont have to harp on valve seals,rings,guides etc.... Everybody in here should know that a common problem on high mile(over 100k) chevys is dried up seals or worn guides,that smoke on start up.The guy just spent 3k on a NEW motor! Granted,not every motor is perfect,but I would say the odds of this being worn out is like you winning the lottery! So I think we can rule out rings or valve seals.Also it does clear up when fuel pressure is reduced,so I think we have narrowed it down to the prom.Its just getting to much fuel at idle,and when it is turned down its not enough and loses power. I suggested a prom from a 350 pickup,just to see where he is,it would be cheaper than 300 for a custom one. But he is not convinced,course its not my money either.What do you think? Also the guy, 91rsrider is way off base comparing a 142k mile oil burner to a brand new crate motor! BUY A MOTOR!!

 

Just go carb. That's what I'm gonna do. People say it's cheaper to stick with what you have. Not when you buy 2 sets of injectors, 3 chips, a vacuum controlled fuel pressure regulator, a decent intake, new TPS and IAC valves, new ESC module (for a 350), a buttload of vacuum and fuel line, a new fuel pump, not to mention all the time spent tweaking this crap, and more than a year later it still isn't running right!! I can go carb for about 600 bucks. Cheaper if I shop around and buy used stuff (much cheaper). And I can make a good bit of that back by selling my TBI stuff. Not trying to flame anyone. TBI just didn't work for me. I wish that it had. I really do. I really don't want the hassle of bad gas mileage, sensitivity to climate and altitude. There are just more people in my area that know how to help me tune a carb than TBI. I can't afford to spend a year burning hundreds of chips just to find the 'magic' one. To get TBI running right, you have to do chip work. And if you do another mod like a cam change/ head change/ torque converter change, that's more work burning chips. That's an added expense that I (and perhaps Brian) don't want to deal with. OK, sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of TBI, too. I wish you guys luck with the TBI motors, and I will definitely keep an eye out on you. I will probably send in my official "resignation" to TBI next week or so.

 

lugnut is correct!
(BTW, you the guy with the 87 on the juice?)
Anyways, let me put some insight into the problem
Yes white, blue, black, smoke all mean different things just like when does it smoke. What makes it stop, etc.
Yes blue smoke is oil but believe it or not, some black smoke is actually really blue! I was sitting around today thinking about it and this is what I've come up with. Black smoke is actually really dark blue AND black. The black comes from the unburnt fuel "washing" off the engine, cat converter, exhuast pipes. The black is carbon build up. You want to see a lot of black smoke! Take an old engine with lots of miles and get a spray bottle with water. Reve the engine to like 2500-3000rpm and spray a BUNCH of water into the throttle body or carb, whatever. Play with the throttle and spray lots of water (don't dump water in!) and you'll get black smoke. Sit behind a car that has a REALLY rich open loop and you'll get black wet carbon pieces.
Fuel and oil are both patrol so if it's a light bright blue or a really dark blue/black it's still something wrong. Since it is a new engine, and since the SMOKE (blue or black, I don't care) goes away when you lower the fuel pressure then that must tell you something about it running rich.
It could be oil burning, I don't know, I'm not an expert. Maybe it has something to do with too much fuel.
Brian has run diagnostics and it's turning a BLM of about 108. This means his ecm is pulling the MOST fuel out from the tables as possible (108 is the BLM limit in the ecm by default).
What he needs is a custom eprom from me or anybody that has the ability to work hands on.
I already talked to him, weather permiting I'll be at his place friday afternoon. We'll run winaldl and diacom. I'll do my buisness and see where that gets him.
As for the intalling a truck eprom from a 350. That's a good idea and a bad one. The main problems with that is the compatibility. Trucks with the 350 have the 7747 ecm, use the same style/size eprom (2732a) but the code is in different order so to speak. Not to mention the truck 350 is still way off AND was programmed for a heavier vehicle! Now if you said get a 350 prom from a cop car caprice with the Lo5 350 then yes. That'll work better. Infact I noticed a difference instantly when I went from the stock hypertech to the ANLU.bin (cop car eprom).
Brian, now that your engine is very similar to mine, it shouldn't take much time getting your car to run GREAT.
You'll be very happy. BTW, if you think I want money for my services think again. You're local, and the only thing I want in return is a ride in Kyles TTA. Well, that and your car of course. Gotta take it to the track this spring. I'd love to have a couple 350 TBI cars running mid 13's or better :-)

 

With nice guys like you around, JPrevost, it makes me wish I lived in NJ or Ohio! . Maybe I wouldn't be so timid about TBI. Oh, well, good luck you guys, I want to see you run low 13's by the end of race season! .

 

if the problem is worse at start up but stays bad you are looking at either a dead sensor or a mis read. check the water temp sensor and O2 sensor to make sure they are good and have good connections. they are the 2 most common to fail in any GM vehicle, both will also result in a "LEAN" read in the ecm and cause it to throw gas at the problem.
hope this helps.

later
tim

 

I stick by my theory that it's oil. If it is a fairly new motor, the rings may not be seated completely yet, and the extra fuel could be washing down the cylinder walls just enough to allow some oil past the rings.

 

I know this seems obvious, but if it has been running rich, don't forget to change out the spark plugs. It makes a huge difference as I found it this weekend. I may keep TBI afterall!