Alright, since I got in an accident with my 84, I bought an 86 today with the same engine and trans (LG4 700R4). I want to rebuild my 84 LG4 (90k miles) and swap it into the 86 (aging 140k miles). I'll do the same with the trans. I need ALL THE INFO I CAN GET! Where should I start? What do I need? Any experiences/problems/shortcuts? ANYthing. Thanks to everyone who helped me get another car, by the way. TGO rules!

 

your going to need alot of tools.........

 

Yup, and a garage. I haven't seen too many people swap in engine in a driveway.

 

haha you guys are a riot. Anyone with some real input?

 

Ok, well, first things first - what kind of space/tools do you have now, and how much experience do you have with actually working on cars??

 

The space and tools I'll deal with as I do this project, because I want to do it no matter what. I'd say I have novice experience with a big learning curve. I've read through the basic manuals a number of times (Haynes, Chiltons, etc) and read through countless posts on the various boards online, but haven't worked on an engine block before from the ground up. I'm mechanically inclined, and have no fear in jumping into this. It's how I learn. It's kinda like me asking "how should I disconnect a battery?" (neg terminal first, then positive, unbolt the clamp, done), just on a grander scale. I'm wondering if I should start with say the carb and work my way down to the block, or just take it all apart and build it up? Or should I start on the trans and swap that into the 86 first? Things like that.

 

hey man, that was REAL input, i wish somebody would have told me i would have spent $10,000 in one year on tools when i began wrenching on cars

 

Would it have stopped you?

 

considering i've used every single tool i own (and i still have to borrow tools from people) on my own car, i'd be down for the count if i didnt have them

 

Nah, I mean if you knew beforehand that you'd be spending 10 grand on tools, would you have turned the other cheek?

All I want is to figure out where to start and what directions I should take. Aside from porting whatever needs it, I don't plan on upgraded the motor with anything, just bringing it back up to new or like-new condition.

 

yes i still would have

 

errr i mean i still would have bought the tools

 

i removed my 350 from my car and completly tore it down with about 7 open end/box wrenches and maybe 10-15 sockets.

a basic mechanic tool set will be all you need really until you start building then you'll need other tools. ie ring compressor torque wrench etc

 

Personally, I wouldn't do anything with the '84 engine, for a couple of reasons:

1) It's a 305 (look at my sig before you knock that statement - and, mine has 152,623 miles on it right now).

2) The '86 LG4 is a better engine/package than the '84 LG4.

If you're thinking the '86 doesn't seem to run quite as well as the '84 did, then that's a slightly different story, but it probably means the '86 just needs some basic help. If it truly is "worn out", then I still say don't bother with the '84 engine.

I know you said that you don't plan on upgrading the engine - but, believe me, if you go through the expense of rebuilding either 305, you'll regret it later. A much more forward-looking approach would be to find a builder 350 and go through it instead. In the mean time, you could upgrade the exhaust on the '86, enjoy it now, and be prepared for the 350 when it's ready to go in.

If you plan on rebuilding/replacing both the engine and tranny, then do the installation at the same time. Much easier that way. But, neither the '84 nor '86 TH700 is a very good transmission as far as TH700's go, so consider an upgraded '88-later tranny and just have it ready to go in when the engine is ready.

And, Mark, just for the record, I did more than one swap in the driveway while I lived in San Diego. One wasn't my car, even. Rebuilt engines, too. And a couple of transmissions...

 

I do plan on eventually getting the ZZ4 pacakge for one of these cars. Probably the 86, just cause the body is in much better shape. But the 86 engine and trans are feeling pretty weak. Especially the trans. The 84 engine has 90k on it, while the 86 has 140k. I have two reasons for wanting to do this project: first and foremost to learn and prepare myself for building the ZZ4. I don't have experience doing a rebuild and would like to try it with the engine I'm not using now (the 84). And second, to try to restore the 84 car.

Admittedly, the 86 needs some electrical and fuel work, so maybe those are the only reasons for it feeling so weak. The trans is hopefully just needing a couple new parts; it sometimes will slip into neutral if it's in Drive (not OD). Basically I need to learn how to rebuild on the 84 and get the 86 to last me long enough to get the ZZ4 package. When that's all done, I'll restore the 84 back to stock and in like-new shape.

 

First of all you don't build a zz4 package, unless you're just getting the shortblock. It comes as a complete turn-key crate motor less a carburetor and plug wires. Second of all you are wasting your time going through the trouble with either of those motors. You've probably heard it before but i'll say it anyway: its cheaper and in your best interest in terms of performance to put a 350 in right off the bat. I'm surprised THAT point hasn't come up in this thread. Think about your time as well. Here's what i'd do, leave the LG4's in both cars. In the meantime while you drive those around, go to the local junkyard or whatever, get a 350 longblock for $200. Disassemble it, have it cleaned, have the necessary machine work done, replace the wearables, etc etc etc. Hell if you don't want to do that, go to kragen and order a reman 350 (you can get a 4-bolt as cheap as $700). For your core give them your old 305...those idiots won't be able to tell the difference esp. since all sbc's look the same. Then toss a suitable cam in there and if you have a little extra cash, pull the heads off and take them to a reputable machine shop have them port the heads, do a valve job, and even put it some bigger valves as your budget allows. Replace your stock manifold with a good dual-plane aftermarket version (ie edelbrock performer). This is an example of fairly cheap ($1200-$1500) mild build-up with basic parts. Nothing fancy. This would be a perfect replacement to put in your camaro. Not only will you have a fresh motor in there for now, you will have appreciably more power, and you will have a good foundation for further mods.

 

Interesting... I wasn't aware the ZZ4 was a turn-key package. I guess that solves a number of problems...

I still would like to keep one of these cars stock and just fix it up. Not for performance's sake, but for historical sake and again, just to learn my way around an engine.

Might as well hop on to the carb board. Gotta figure that out next.

 

I have. Some guy down the street swapped out motors in an eclipse in his driveway. i see his sone racing up and the down the street all the time. Some kids just wont ever appreciate what their parents do for them. He runs the hell out of that car. i saw his dad do it in five days. No carport, no garage, nothing but driveway. That car is still so slow its a shame....

 

not to burst your bubble but most thirdgens dont tend to be rare or collectable. I see 84-89's for sale all the time. They tend to go dirt cheap too.

 

get an iroc. then go for it

 

Well say I screw something up big time. I don't want to be blowing up 350 TPI engines, I just want to work on what I have here. Costs the least amount of money for me and I don't have to have a third engine laying around. And whether it's an IROC or not, another 20 years and it'll be a collectable. With 400,000 miles on it and running strong. LOL

 

that's why i rebuilt the 305 in my car.

if it were to grenade, so what.. it's a 305.

i'm inclined to agree about using the 86, as it has flat-tops.

the 81 LG4 i used had dished pistons. machinist gave me a deal on new flat-tops, but was still 90 bucks for 8 pistons.

 

Rob: do you know if the 84 has flat-top pistons, as well? Cause that's the engine I plan on rebuilding. I don't think I'll have time to swap the 84 LG4 into the 86 just to rebuild the 86 engine. The 86 has a lot of wear, so I don't even know if it'll be worth it to work on that one.

 

That is the most retarded arguement I have ever heard.

So What ? So you will have lost just as much money if the motor grenades as if you had built a 350, Yet if the motor dosent grenade, and all the time up and untill it does grenade, your going to be driving around with a sub-par engine.

There is NO REASON EVER TO REBUILD A 305. EVER.
.
350 blocks are cheap, plentiful, and easy to come by.

It will take you less time to source a rebuildable 350 than to Pull out your existing 305.

Im sick of this arguement, its absolutely ludicrous. There is no More idiotic of a Move than to spend all the money to get all the machine work done, and replace all the worn out parts, and end up with a sub par engine, for the same cost?

WHY ?

What sort of convoluted logic is that ?

The 305 has NO advantage over the 350 in terms of anything. None.

The only possible use for a 305 would be in a displacement limited racing class, like AS or CMC. If thats not you, Then don't.

 

Look, this is basic math here people. 0 dollars spent on getting a 305. Why? Because I already have one! I'm not gonna spend MORE money just to go get a 350. Cost of machining? The same for both engines. So I get to save at least $500 just cause I didn't get a 350. And if you think that's "only" 500 bucks, sorry but I'm not a rich man. Why do you think I own a third gen and not a fourth? It's certainly not nostalgia. I was 7 years old when the car I have came out.

And if you think there's no reason for having a 305 at ALL, let's talk gas mileage. A well-tuned carb and well-working 305 will give me more miles per gallon than any 350. This is a DAILY DRIVER. As are most of the f-bodies on this board. YES there are people who race. YES there are people who want performance. And I will get performance when I get the ZZ4. But that's not why I am rebuilding this engine. And if you think I should go get an inline 4, re-read the first paragraph.

Anyone can come on this post and say "you're wasting your time," but you're not offering any kind of help at all. I said I'm going to rebuild it, so if you have any help pertaining to it, please offer it. Otherwise, if you think I'm wasting my time, that's great, go build your 350 and keep your opinion to yourself. I'm not asking for opinions. I'm asking for assistance.

I apologize to anyone reading through this post for similar assistance. I felt it should've been said, though.

 

goddamnit bort.....

it's called using what you have. i didn't have a 350 with the car. plus, i wanted to see what the 305 could do.

stop the "sub-par engine" line. i'm sick of hearing people say it. i'm happy with my 305.

i chalk my rebuild up as learning experience. at least i won't end up trashing a perfectly good 350 core.

if you're sick of the arguing, then why did you just add more to the argument? goddamn, shut up already.

cayse.... the 84 305 should have dished pistons. flat-tops didn't come out in LG4's until 1986.

 

First I have to say this.... The 305 is a great engine. Good gas mileage, Nice torquie power band, and the damn things can run forever. That said it sucks for power. so f*ing what?

As for on topic comments the only thing I can say is to make some friends cause you are gonna need a stand and a hoist. F-bodies aren't hondas with motors that can be lifted out by hand...

btw stands go for ~$100
and a hoist ~$200

 

actually, i bought me engine stand at advance auto parts for $35.99, 750 pound capacity. it pays to shop around, there vary widely in price as i found out this spring. for example, i shopped at advance, autozone, and tractor supply company. tsc wanted $50, autozone wanted $69.99, advance had it for $35.99

a hoist will run you anywhere between $150-$250, but you can always rent one if need be. but a little bit more economical to buy one. i just borrow my friend's when i need it.


if you ended up building the 84 LG4, a set of flat-top pistons will run you about $150. this is what my machine shop initially quoted me. these are regular cast pistons, no hyperreutectics or anything fancy. if you're planning on nitrous or other power adder, you'll want a heavier piston, most likely a forging.

if anyone else has any 305 questions, just ask me.

 

350 tpi has good gas milage.

 

Sounds cool. Looks like I got some big projects heading my way. Rob, I ended up buying a reman. starter at Strauss cause when I tried to loosen one of the connections on the 84 starter, the plastic casing on the solenoid cracked in half! It just fell off. Haha... it must've been in there since 84. But all in all it went well, and it starts up like a dream.

I think I'm gonna first rebuild the carb on the 84 and put it on the 86, just to get some problems out of the way. Later I'll switch it back when the 84 is done.

It felt great firing up that car after 3 hours of oil-caked under-car work with those 20 pound starters. I got some help from a friend, so it all worked out great. My first real project complete!

 

glad your having fun

 

Thanks, Sinthetik. Today I Rain-Xed the windshield for the impending storms tomorrow. VROOM VROOMM!

 

Well after you get done Rain-Xing your windshield, click here.

http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...id=244&pid=132

It's a brand new 350 block. ~$520 And that's probably the norm at any GM dealer.

That may sound like a lot at first, but it cost me ~$400 to have my 350 block bored .030" over, honed for moly rings, the crank ground down .010", new freeze plugs and cam bearings installed, as well as all oil plugs. Everything else on the block checked out OK like deck straightness, main cap alignment, etc. If I would have needed any of that done...... it would have been more $$$$. EDIT: I forgot to mention that the block and crank cost me $100 used. I could have had a new block for that much.

I still have to get my pistons pressed on and new rod bolts installed for $100. I've also spent about another $400 for new pistons (hyper), rings (moly), rod and main bearings, cam, lifters, timing chain with gears, and oil pump. You can add another $100 on there for 305 parts.

For the money/time I probably would have gone with a crate motor instead of dealing with all this crap. Yea I get to say "I built it myself" , but I actually assembled it myself, not built it.

Here's a new 205 HP 350 for $1,495.
http://www.goautocenter.com/350_1971-85.htm
If you can swing another $230 ($1,725) you can get the 265HP one.

The 305 at 220HP costs $1,725!!! Which one would you rather have? http://www.goautocenter.com/305_v-8.htm

AJ

 

Thank you AJ! We have differd in opinion in the past, But you are dead on here.

For less than the cost of the nessicary machine work to your exisiting 305 block, you can get a NEW 350 Block wich will not require said machine work. You will be money ahead And Have a better Motor.

Your 305 Rotating assembly will work in this block. In addition you already will need to buy new pistons for your 305 if you take it .030 over ( wich would be nessicary at this point ) So the piston cost is a wash.

So Don't Give me that garbage about Cost. Its ludicrous.

Aj also brings up a good point about crate engines, But I see that Cayse is looking to learn here, and that motivation rules the crate engine route out.

AS far as gas mialge differance, don't even get me started. There is no appriciable Differance. The engines are not really that differant in displacement, we are not comparing a 460 to a 2.3L here. a 305 and a 350 with similar parts and similarly tuned will get nearly identical gas milage.

I appriciate your wish to learn, and I think you are on the right track with that, but Im only warning you that rebuilding that 305 is a poor investment of your time.

You are spending the Same, For less.

WHy ?

Worrying about ruining a "good 350 block" is unfounded as well. 350's are as Common as ****. There are probrably more 350 blocks sitting in junkyards than there are 305's in existance. I don't understand why people treat them as if it was a 427 SOHC or something.

Robg, Ill not stop the sub-par engine line because that is exactly what it is, a compromised design.

The Small bore size creates valve shrouding problems, plain and simple. Its not because of its displacement its slow, its because of the small bore.

As far as seeing what a 305 can do, Thats great. Thats what I have done with mine. For a total investment less than 1000 dollars I have got it running better (faster) than any 350 I could have built/bought for the same price, so that was a wise investment. But It was the motor already in My car, I did not have to rebuild anything.

I am Not trying to insult anyone here, I am trying to dispell these myths and add some logic to this discussion.

And RobG, I would be careful with that 35$ Engine Stand. 750 lbs Dosent give alot of lee-way on a Wet SBC. Generally those cheapo stands are designed with smaller engines in mind.

 

yeah. the engine stand works for what i need it to do.

i'll probably get a better one next engine i do.

however, i'll also quit my arguing about the subject.

truce?

 

Your last name dosent happen to be Glover Does it ?

 

i was thinkin the same about the 750pound stand. i got myself a 1000 pound for 55 bux at c.a.p

 

Wow... that is a really good point about the 350 block. Man that would be a pretty good idea IMHO.

Not to try to talk you out of your plans to go ahead with the 305, but how about this scenario.... You pick up the Goodwrench 350 block, buy a rotating assembly for it (pretty inexpensive) get some decent heads (Vortec?) and for a pretty reasonable amount that wouldn't be all that much more than the 305 rebuild, have better than the ZZ4 you plan in the future!!! This way, you can get all of what you want in the end....Learning about building an engine, and a fairly strong engine.

On top of all that, you can sell the lower mileage 305 to someone for a couple hundred (especially if they can hear it run!) to offset some of the parts cost.

Now, as for a plan of attack, it sounds like you may have carb troubles (the reason you want to start with it?) so that would be fine for a starting place. After that, it sounds as though the trans is about to die. Maybe that should be next! Just take care of the really urgent things, then get to the engine as soon as you can, just don't take 2 years like I have!

 

nope, not Glover.

Guthrie

 

Lucky, Or I really would have had some material against you

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by racereddy20
not to burst your bubble but most thirdgens dont tend to be rare or collectable. I see 84-89's for sale all the time. They tend to go dirt cheap too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



get an iroc. then go for it
....

n iroc is a 3rd gen and no where near being a rare car.. there is no such thing as a rare 3rd gen.. and as far as i can see i dont believe 3rd gen camaros/firebirds will ever be very valuable as collector items as they were in production for 10 years.. and to agree with raceready.. yeah 3rd gens are a dime a dozen pretty much.. but theres a reason for it.. 99.9% of 3rd gens are beat to ****.. its very very rare to find one in good shape that was never beaten.. its an f-body...you beat the living **** out of em n then rebuild em.. if ya dont wheres the fun? hehe if i had to recommend an f-body for someone to buy i'd say go with the nicest looking cheapest one.. or if u can find one without an motor/tranny get that n just rebuild or replace EVERYTHING..they're fun cars.. but stick with reality man. hehe

 

what do u mean?
over the past year i have seen the price of iroc's jump up. especially factory 350 irocs.
i have a factory 350 iroc. 87
i have offers all the time to sell the car. and it dont even run currently and needs a paintjob. yet people wanna give me a grand 1500 for it one guy 2 g's.

 

Turbo Trans Am, and to a lesser extent the 1LE IROC's.

Even the B4C RS' I would consider fairly Rare.

Additionally All Convertable IROC and Z28.

But thats Beside the Point )

 

they are rare as far as 3rd gens are concerned but compaired to real rare cars no.. with the few exceptions of cars such as the firehawk....

 

I like your idea of building a 350 with the GM block and Vortec heads. It certainly will cover all my bases, except one. Emissions. Now, I'm not sure that this setup wouldn't pass NJ emissions testing, but I do know that the ZZ4 conversion package will. I know I keep changing my mind back and forth, but I don't see a future for the 84 car, cause the body is so screwed up from the accident. So I want to make the 86 ZZ4 a daily driver. NJ emissions are not a friendly thing...

The 86 LG4 is having a number of fuel and spark issues. I know I should get the spark and timing done before heading off the carb, but since I have two, I will be rebuilding it in the meantime. Throwing on a cap, rotor, wires and plugs isn't that big of a deal.

The trans is definitely on its last legs. So that's gotta be the next thing to attack when I get this engine running normally.

You know, if I could just get the blueprints and parts list for the ZZ4 conversion, I'd go the route of building it from the ground up. I know the installation manual is GM part #12485074, but I haven't found that ANYwhere.

 

Your local GM dealer should be able to locate any parts you need! They can run it through "the finder" and look at I think any dealer in the country!

I'm not sure about the emissions testing, but I would bet it would pass the emissions as long as you keep any aftermarket stuff on it emissions legal. I know there are people out there running Vortec heads, and such on their cars and passing emissions.

In all actuality, your car may be better on the emissions than the original, as long as it is tuned properly. When you get right down to it, something you build for a daily driver, you will want to do the same thing that is required to pass emissions testing, and that is an ideal air/fuel ratio! And you should have exaclty that if everything is correct, such as timing, carb tuning, etc....

Good luck!

 

A couple other things:

www.gmpartsdirect.com is an online source for GM parts, and you can enter in just the part number to find it.


Also, this link:
https://www.spoperformanceparts.com/...119&CATID=1099 will give you the list for the 350 HO Camaro Conversion. The ZZ4 kit is no longer available.

One more www.spoperformanceparts.com is the main page for GM performance parts.