i now this isnt 3rd gen related, but it is my daily driver and i need some opinions on what is going on with it.its an 87 chrysler lebaron 2.5 4 cyl. one of the problems is that a couple days it threw code 17, which said that it was a bad thermostat and that it wasnt heating up fast enough. i dont understand how this can be right since it never has a problem heating up, and its cold here. so should i replace the thermostat?
Another this is lately after going over a steep incline i notice a smell like burnt radiator coolant, the level of coolant seems fine so i dont know what could be causing that smell, i am worried that maybe there is a leak somewhere and i am smelling the burnt fluid. i cant visably see any signs of this. lately after a short amount of running you can smell gas in the engine compartment. not outside or in the engine bay just wondering where that smell was coming from too. the car has 175,000. sorry for the lack of third gen content but you guys know alot about cars and i need some advise.:hail: any help appreciated

 

Disconnected CTS will look to the computer like the motor is at -40° or some such, and just refuses to warm up. It doesn't know it's unplugged, it just thinks the motor isn't warming up. Find the CTS and check the wiring.

A small amount ot coolant may be leaking from somewhere and dripping somewhere normally, but drip onto the exhaust when the car is inclined a particular way.

 

You have a Les-Baron? I've had a few experiences with a Die-Nasty or three (same basic POS). Let's see...

2.5L, inline 4-holer, aluminum head? Loss of coolant? Lubrication failure? Cam seizure? Sounds familiar. You should check the hundreds of TSBs and recalls regarding this problem on mid- late-‘80s and early '90s Nopars. It seems that Mitsubishi was still waging war on the U.S. by providing these engines for "domestic" cars of that era (Gee, thanks Mr. Iacocca....)_They are as bad if not worse than the ‘90-97 Ford 3.8L (232) V-6 heads for leakage. They are THAT bad - really.

Perform a cylinder leakage test. Pressure test the cooling system at 15-18 PSI. Analyze the oil for contamination. Once you determine that the head is warped and leaking, you'll see why you are having all your issues. How many mid-‘80s Mitsubishis do you see still driving around that DON'T smoke? It was/is a very common failure at about 80,000 miles. And that "wonderful" 7/70 Chrysler warranty program won't help you a bit.

Fortunately for you, there were so many of these failures that every parts store on the continent has a few of these replacement reman heads in their stock. Get an exchange price, swap heads, then find a home-schooling, soccer-mommy, tofu-eating patsy to sell your car to. Run away with the cash as fast as you can and never look back. Unless you are into S&M, don't even look at another one of these POS cars.

Just a few thoughts....

 

geeze man, i only asked what the problem could be not what you thought about my car. actually its my girlfriends car, she got it from her friend from the right price. we have had it since it had 115,000 miles on it and now it has 175,000 miles on it. it has had NO problems and it DOESNT smoke. so someone who would buy such a car must be a home-schooling, soccer-mommy, tofu-eating patsy) thats real cooli guess i must be to buy such a POS huh? why did you say all that crap about my car that's stupid and i dont appreciate it.

just a few thoughts....

 

Hmm I can understand what your saying but as Vader pointed out it is a POS and your very VERY lucky to have gotten as many trouble free miles as you have. The heads on these cars warp and crack between the valves, no amount of mantinence will prevent it and yes the cams snap in half for no reason infact I had one at work a couple weeks back with a snapped cam.
The best thing to do would be to fix it as cheaply as possible and dump it.

As far as the code 17, RB83L69 summed it up nicely. Another possibility for the antifreze smell could be a water pump starting to go that also (can) cause a code 17 as well by not circulating the coolant properly.

 

my defination of POS isnt exactly a car that has faithfully performed for 15 years/175,000 miles.i tink that anyone who has had a car put out that many miles should consider themselves lucky. i cant afford to just dump the car.money is tight and i cant just run out and find another good one. i appreciate the technical help, i will look at it this week. hopefully its just the water pump. how can i tell if it is?

 

84TA305,

Sorry if I came off as being a bit harsh, but I was just pointing out the facts. It wasn't meant as a personal affront, and I was just venting my own frustrations over similar experiences. At 175,000 miles, you may want to seriously consider the possibility of head sealing problems, since it was such a chronic problem on those engines.

As I said before, a quick compression test and cooling system pressure test might reveal some useful information. If the car has been reliable and not given you any problems for that long, it doesn't owe you anything, and you can expect some mechanical problems.

If it IS the water pump, and my memory is any good, there should be a water pump buried somewhere under the alternator and A/C compressor. The pump housing is held on by only a few of bolts, but they aren't very user-friendly. They thread right into the water jacket, so they require sealant on reasssembly. The pump also uses no gaskets, but is sealed to the pump housing with RTV, and the pump housing is sealed to the engine with an 'O' ring. There is also a special bleeding procedure to get all the air out of the cooling system on those engines. There is a plug on top of the thermostat water box that has to be removed to allow air to escape.

And if you do have to dig into the right side/front of the engine, it might be a very good idea to invest another twenty bucks and some time to replace the timing belt while you're in that far. If it hasn't been done in the last 70,000 miles, it's overdue.

Another FYI - all the temperature sensors for the fan, ECC, and dash are on the water box behind the thermostat.

Again, I apologize for the tone, but an '87 LeBaron isn't going to last forever. At 175,000 miles, you're probably getting to the point of encountering the wear limits of some critical components. Don't be too surprised if you start having nuisance problems due to the age/mileage. The best thing you can do is to keep it full of clean oil, full of coolant, and plan ahead for it's eventual demise. If you get another 50K out of it, you'll be really lucky.

And you're not alone - money is tight for all of us. No one likes to just throw it away, so you have to be very careful about getting some return on your investment.

 

its all good, no hard feelings, i appreciate the info very much, i just got around to looking at it today, i smelled the oil and couldnt smell anything that wasnt oil, and i looked in my haynes repair manual to see how to check my water pump, it said to squeeze the top radiator hose at normal operating temperature and when i let it go i would feel a rush, well i did that and didnt really feel anything, the hose was hot too. so does that mean its bad? it sounds like its a hard fix, my hands are big anyway so i might not be able to get in there. any idea how much a shop would charge?

 

hehe. sold my 86 chrylser labaron for $500! i could of gotten more for it, but i just wanted to get rid of it. amazingly it was one of the few chysler labaron's that DIDN"T smoke.!! it actualy ran pretty nice except for an extremely loud engine knock.. now that i think about it i should of sold it for more close to $1000. being it had nice working a\c. i tinted the windows (nicely) when i had it. and the inside was in good shape. but we were affraid that the engine knock was a rod that was about to break. but funny thing is i see that car EVERYDAY and it still sounds liek crap, but it keeps on moving! must have 200,000 miles on it by now..

 

I have no clue on the shop flat rate time (or cost), but the pump is buried in there pretty well. If there is no detectable flow through the top hose, that doesn't really indicate a lot. If it was warm, we can presume the thermostat was flowing at least something, but may not have been open enough to create the "surge" that the Haynes manual describes. And if the thermostat isn't opening (as the ECM is reporting) the water pump theory may be invalid. Has the cooling system been flushed recently? I can't hurt.

I'd suggest opening the radiator while the engine is cold, starting the engine, allow it to warm fully, then observe the radiator level when the RPMs are brought up. The radiator level should drop at higher RPM, then return to a higher level when the RPM returns to idle.

As for the source of the coolant odor, a pressure test would still be a good idea. If it isn't monkey-ball freezing cold there, you might try to clean off the engine as best you can with a hose or car wash high pressure spray, then monitor it for signs of leakage for a few days. It's also possible you could be smelling coolant inside the car, as from a leaking heater core.

Don't overlook the simple things, like a failing thermostat. I had one a week ago that wouldn't warm up. One shop guessed a bad pump, another "diagnosed" a failing CTS, saying that both the PCM and dash gauge senders had failed at the same time, but the owner had a hunch it was a sticky thermostat. A system check and flush revealed he was right - somewhat. Yeah, that's part of the seal/gasket in there holding it open:

 

how long did this head and valve train problem last into the early 90s? are 93 2.5Ls still susceptable to this problem?

 

Search the vehicle TSB database. You'll find all sorts of interesting information on the little engine (2.2/2.5). In 1994 there were some minor design changes that supposedly addressed the earlier models tendency to lose coolant, oil, and head gasket integrity. Included was a change to a one-piece "structural" valve cover to reinforce the head against warpage. They still hadn't fixed the valve guide problem, but intalled an oil restrictor to limit the amount of oil to the head and minimize the valve guide oil loss and smoking. Sounds like a band-aid fix instead of a real engineering change, but when you have all your eggs in one basket, you don't replace the basket that easily.

Incidentally, among the 70-80 recalls and TSBs for the '93 LeBaron, several deal with engine oil consumption and cooling system problems, but still not quite half of them.

 

thanks for the info, Vader. i never realized how poor those 2.5Ls are, i have never owned, let alone spent much time in a chrysler product until now. looks like i might have some work ahead me in the near future on my new winter beater, a 93 dodge spirit with a 2.5L. good thing i got it real cheap from my grandma and all it need to pass safety was a new muffler. hopefully it lasts the winter....thats all i ask....

 

I agree with vader 100 percent on his view on les-barons. I got one real cheap this summer and drove it for about 2 months while i was working on my roadrunner. I ended up selling it for 250 just to get rid of the damn thing. I had the 3.0 with....155,??? miles and no valve stem seals :lala: handled decent for a small chrysler though.

 

how much should the coolant level drop? i did it this morning, i let it sit for about 10 minutes and when the rpm's were brought up the coolant dropped about 1/4 inch, shouldnt it drop more than that? it was pretty cold this morning, in the 20's i think. can any shop around do a pressure test and what does the price range?

 

well i guess i will pick up a thermostat and put it in this week. what degree should i get? i have never done it before so do i have to replace all the coolant too? could changing the thermostat possibly make the smell go away?

 

i got a 91 dodge shadow with the 2.5 and 160,000 miles on it. The only complaints that i have is engine oil that gets black after 1500 miles and something that sounds to quiet to be a knock and louder than what a bad lifter would sound like. Engine is still holding strong for the most part but the POS dodge is falling apart all around it. Broken passenger seat, broken w.s. wipers, countless amounts of brake pads and occassionaly new rotors. and 2 weird clunks that come from the front and the back of the car, but what can i say, its my lovable BEATER.

 

and lets not forget a rear drivers side door that you have to yank up on so hard to get open, you think youre gonna rip the handle off.

 

84TA,

Sorry for the slow reply. I've been buried under a Vortec truck for a couple of days - friggin' pulsation damper on the fuel pump. Then I had to drop the tank again because the connector fell off the new AC pump when I installed the assembly.

Then I had to replace the connectors for the pump because the previous "mechanic" that replaced the pump bypassed the WeatherPack with bleedin' CRIMP terminals! How lazy/dumb can anyone get?


Anyway, enough of my woes. If the engine was fully warmed and the thermostat was opened, you should have seen the coolant level drop considerably more than ¼" when you raised the RPM. Usually on a SBC, the level will drop and inch or two - a very noticable drop.

Since the ECM is trying to tell you that you have a thermostat problem, and you are having difficulty getting flow, it might be a good idea to change the thermostat and possibly inspect the pump while you're in there. At least remove the thermostat and test it in a saucepan with boiling water. If you have a therometer to check water temperature, you should be able to cheeck the exact opening temperature of the thermostat (the rating temperature is the point at which is starts to open). I'm guessing your's is a 190-195°F, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it were a 180°F because of the aluminum head. If it isn't right, a new one is usually less than ten bucks. If you do replace it, a 180°F might be a good choice, since you'll still get warm enough to make heat, but will have a little insurance against overheating. Overheating one of those engines is even worse than running it low on oil, given all the head warpage/gasket sealing problems Chrysler has had.

If you have the fortitude to brave the weather, reinstall the thermostat housing without the stat in place, and test the pump operation/flow again. If you don't see a more significant drop in coolant level at higher RPM, you may have a worn inpeller on the pump or some sort of restriction.

As for your second question, if you are going to break into the cooling system fop any reason and the system hasn't been flushed in the last 36,000 miles / 3 years, it would be a really good idea to do that at the same time. Make sure you collect and dispose of the old coolant properly - especially if you have pets.

Good luck - keep us posted.

BTW - A shop should be able to pressure test the cooling system for next to nothing - should be less than ½ hour at whatever their rate is. Call around and ask. Maybe one would even let you rent/borrow their tester.

 

Well i got the new thermostat put in this weekend. I put in a 180 degree one and it seems to be working well. I didnt smell the burnt coolant smell before i changed it though, havent smelled it after either so that is a good sign. It was about 5 degrees when i did it but thats the only complaint i have about changing it, except when i dropped a bolt under the car in the snow and couldnt find it, me and my dad had to push the car backwards and get my brothers metal detector to finally find it. The level of coolant now drops and inch or two when the engine is reved. so the water pump is working. i still wonder where that smell was coming from.
I have a new question, i am thinking about having a cylinder compression test done, what will this show me and what should i look for? i am assuming that any shop can do this pretty inexpensively. thanks for all the help.

 

Well, waddyaknow? Your computer wasn't lying after all.

It's good that you got it taken care of. Too bad that the monkey had to sacrifice his ********* in the weather. That couldn't have been any fun - even with a warm engine. If you're now seeing the coolant level in the radiator drop like it should at increased RPM, you accomplished some positive changes.

Just a few hints, though. Since any engine will retain air when refilled, and even the water used to dilute the antifreeze contains some free air, monitor the cooling system level for a week or more, and add mixture as necessary to maintain the correct level. As sensitive as these engines are to overheating, that should be a habit anyway, but you don't want to take any chances. I'm just throwing it out there as a reminder.

And the coolant odor still has to be dealt with. It is possible that you have a small leak somewhere, including a hose, heater core, or gasket. You may also have only had a "burp" of overheated coolant purge from the overflow tank as a result of the sticking thermostat. Just maintain the level and keep watching it until you can check it thoroughly. It may already be solved with the new T-stat, but it's good to be certain about things like that.

As for the compression test, if you are going to pay someone actual money to do it, insist on a cylinder leakage test instead. You'll get a lot more quantifyable and useful information from it. Personally, unless the plugs were a real "******" to access, I would feel guilty about charging anyone more than the price of a plug change for performing the test. If they want more than that, they're whiners! (Mommy, it's so HARD to connect that air hose and find top dead center - WAA-AAHH!) Slap them away and find a different place. Or better yet, wait until the weather is just a little better and find someone to loan the tester to you.

As long as the engine doesn't leak or mix any critical fluids, runs normally, produces the normal power, and has no other symptoms, the impetus to get a compression or cylinder leakage test done was pretty much satisfied by your solving the problem with the new thermostat. For future reference, it would be nice to know where you stand with a leakage test, but it may not be worth the sacrifice of another monkey's progeny - certainly not to the poor monkey. Wait until the weather is just a little more bearable.

Thanks for updating us with the results. It's always good to see how a problem was resloved. And again, I'm sorry if I came off as harsh in my original reply. I was only stressing the tendency of these engines to self-destrtuct with little warning. Ignore the maintenance and signals, and you'll have a time-bomb, like so many others have had. Keep the engine cool, keep it full of clean oil, and take care of the little problems, and it will continue to run for you. Obviously, you're on track to keep it running. Just stay a step ahead and it shouldn't surprise you.