Ok, when I started my motor for the first time after putting it together one of the primary tubes started to get hot like it was about to glow(according to my brother). Anyway, it was only on the #5 cylinder. The carb was messed up and I got another one that has been rebuilt now and hopefully will try to start it up tonight or tomorrow if I dont have time tonight. I would imagine that this would be related to the valve lash since it was only on primary. If this is the case do would it be intake or exhaust? I didnt here any noise from the rockers but it was running on open headers so it would have been hard to tell. Would this mean that one of the was to tight and staying open? I have a valve cover cut out so I could adjust it, but I didnt finnish my cam break in time because I had to shut down(hope that doesnt screw anything up). Should I try to loosen or tighten a specific vavle(intake or exhaust) or should I run it and adjust it then bring the rpms up or what? I need to get it set, but I dont want to screw the cam either. If there is something else that could be the problem let me know. Like I said the carb was screwed up also so that could have been part of it but I dont think that would explain why it was only the one primary.

Ben

 

An exhaust staying open will cause a red-hot header; as will excessive gasoline to that cyl. #5 is one of those closest to the carb so if liquid fuel is dumping into the intake from whichever side of the carb feeds it, it may all go to that cyl.

Hook the exhaust up so you can tell what you're doing. It's pointless to start up a motor when it's not completely assembled. When you start the car next time, be ready before you start it up to adjust the valves; zero-lash them (loosen them until they tick, tighten them until they just barely quit) as fast as you can; then shut the motor off and put your chosen preload on all 16 (I'd suggest ½ turn), and put the valve covers on. Just keep the idle set kind of high while you're adjusting, like 1800 RPM or so. That way you can be sure the valves are set properly.

FYI: I have a personal discipline about putting an engine in my car: I simply don't start it until all fluids are in, exhaust is hooked up, every hose and wire and even the air cleaner is in place, etc. I then close the hood on a completed install, and only then start the car. I have found that if I do it that way, I don't end up with stuff half-done and forgotten to finish after the car is running, disasters during the initial test drive, loose bolts I forgot to tighten, and that sort of problems from a half-finished job. Usually I can install a motor (even a brand-new one), adjust the valves, time it, fill it, etc. etc. before it ever starts; then at the moment of truth, I can reach in through the window and start it up the first time, and get in and drive it off. Go see a factory assembly plant: that's how they do it. There's no half-finished cars with pieces strewn all over the floor and "mechanics" trying to piece half-running cars together; the engines come in sealed, timed, valves adjusted, and everything, they put them in, and the cars start the first time they turn the key. It's really not that hard if you just adopt the mental attitude that you're going to work that way.

 

Ok, I will get the valve lash adjusted first. I will let you know that this was the fist time I had set valve lash and I did it with the motor off. I did 0 lash and then half a turn this way. Also, the exhaust is on now. The exhaust was the only thing that wasnt ready when I started it the first time but the carb was having a problem also. I just wanted to hear it run being as the car has been down a little over a year now. This car is the first car I have done any real major mods on and everything in the sig except for the shift kit has been done since I stoped driving it when the 305 died.

Thanks

Ben

 

I agree with RB83L69, make sure you are "done" with the install before trying to start it, except maybe closing the hood (I like to watch for leaks, fires and general operation).

Setting the valve lash on a non running engine needs to be done carefully to avoid compressing a lifter while tightening the rockers. Just go slowly and check for "twizzle" on the push rod while tightening, as soon as it starts to drag, stop, then do 1/2 turn more.

 

twizzle? Other than not understanding that word that is exactly what I did

Ben

 

Heheh figured that would get someone.
Twizzle...is the side to side or spinning action of the pushrod as you roll it between your fingers.
Its a term used in aviation a lot.

 

Well, my cousin reset the valve lash for me. Didnt do a bit of good. It still glowed the #7 primary and the #1 appeared to get pretty hot. I also checked the compression I checked the 2 that got hot and one that didnt and they all read right about at 150 psi. The one thing that I noticed is that I cant hardly get it to run if I back the timing down to where its supposed to be. It seems to want to be off of the timing tab up towards the top to run(advanced?). I know timing can cause headers to glow, but I would think it would be causing them all to glow. One other thing I noticed was that when I would back the timing down it would it would die when I got to about 8* and backfire out the carb. I need some help really bad here.

Thanks

Ben

 

Sounds like the distributor is off a tooth or the chain slipped. One thing to check is the firing order. Put #1 at TDC and pull the cap off, make sure the rotor is pointing at #1 terminal with the distributor set so that the lug where the wires go points directly to the left side of the car (90 deg to the length of the engine). Then check that all of the wires are on the terminals in the proper order.

 

Sounds like either your timing mark is wrong (not uncommon), or you have the plug wires on the cap one cyl away from where they all need to be.

You can check your timing visually fairly easily.... the crank keyway lines up exactly with the #1 rod journal; so if you take out the damper bolt and turn the crank until the keyway is at exactly 1:30, 45° from straight up, the engine will be at #1 (or #6) firing. Set it there and see what your timing mark says. Then pop the dist cap off and check which wire the rotor is pointing to, see if it's either #1 or #6; if not, move them one place until #1 or #6 lines up with the rotor. At the same time, loosen the timing bolt; rotate the dist until the "teeth" on the star wheel exactly line up with the "teeth" on the fixed part of the pickup coil; then turn the dist body counter-clockwise a little less than ¼ of the way to the next line-up point. That will put you at about 10° static timing, some of which will go away when the engine starts and all the slack in everything gets taken up.

 

Well, that sounds like it would make sense, but why would the timing being off only cause the one or maybe 2 if I let it run longer primarys to glow? I will try and check it how you said but will probably not have time till at least tuesday but will keep you updated when I get a chance.

Ben

 

Also, my timing is not set correctly now because the timing mark woulnt line up so technically the rotor could be pointing at any cylinder that the distributer body was turned toward couldnt it? How will I know by taking the cap off that the cap is in the right position to judge the rotor by without the timing set?

Thanks

Ben

 

RB83L69, I did take the time to go out and set it to top dead center according to the timing mark and it appeared to be pointed toward the number 6 cylinderalmost. It was straight back but a little more toward the passenger side. I will possibly try taking out the crank bolt and seeing what angle the keyway is at right now. It should be exactly 45 degrees from straight up, correct? I did not understand what you meant when you said this:

"At the same time, loosen the timing bolt; rotate the dist until the "teeth" on the star wheel exactly line up with the "teeth" on the fixed part of the pickup coil; then turn the dist body counter-clockwise a little less than ¼ of the way to the next line-up point. That will put you at about 10° static timing"

The distributer that I am using is the stock one from the lg4 setup along with all of the ccc stuff. I took the cap and off and the rotor and didnt see these "teeth" are you referring to the rotor tip and the terminals on the cap. It didnt sound like it but thats all I could see.

Moley, I didnt even see your post until I was relplying to RB. Anyway, that is what i was afraid it could be(timing chain). I doubt it slipped being as it is brand new, but I cant guarantee that it is on right. I just lined up the 2 little dots. As far as the distributer being a tooth out I dont think it is. I did have it a tooth out the first time I went to start it but I think that if my timing mark is at least close to accurate it is in the right tooth. Actually if it was just a tooth off that would be fine and dandy becaus that is easy, but man the timing chain I dont want to think about. This is the first time I have ever really got into an engine, or done a motor swap in which I was the main person doing stuff and figuring stuff out. I just dont want to have to take all that stuff apart and try to do the timing chain again.

Anyway, I want to get this car on the road. Any help on figuring out what this problem is is greatly appreciated.

Ben

 

Sorry about these continuing posts before anyone replies, but I just went out and checked the keyway on the crank. Anyway, the timing mark was at top dead center(exhaust stroke I believe because the dist was pointing at 6. I took a protractor and used it to put a chalk mark on the crank pulley for 45*. I took out the crank bolt and I cant fit my fat head in there to see the keyway, but I could feel it and it seems to line up nearly exactly with my 45* chalkmark. How far off would it have to be to tell us anything?

Thanks again for the help and patience in reading all this.

Ben

 

The way I described is how I set my dist up. Then I use the first terminal forward of the lug for the wires as #1 and count around the cap from there.

 

Ok, well that could possibly be the problem. There is one that is directly forward of that lug(practically touching it) and I am using the one in front of that. Did you mean to use the one that is just up against it or the one that I am using? If you are supposed to use a different one than I am then I would have to change which tooth the distributer is in and then move all of the plug wires correct?

Ben

 

See the image. I have the lug point across the engine because of the TPI set up and close proximity of the firewall to the large cap.

 

Assuming you mean drivers side by left I circled the one that I currently have the #1 spark plug wire on. Yours is one different. Do you know if I have the motor at top dead on the compression stroke, what agle the rotor should be pointing in degrees?

Thanks

Ben

 

There is really no set angle that it has to be at. I use the lug at 90 deg to the engine for clearance purposes and for ease of identifying #1 and if the dist is in and seated properly. For me it is much easier to tell if I have the dist off a tooth.
So long as you are sure your rotor is pointing exactly at that terminal when the #1 is at TDC you should be ok, that and if all the wires are on the proper terminals.

 

Ok, well then it sounds like mine should be correct, but that worries me because I just am really hoping that it isnt my timing chain. Any suggestions on what to check next?

Ben

 

ttt

 

if its off like that then loosen the hold down strap with that bolt and turn the distributor until the rotor points at termanal #1, thats what i had to do, or pull the distributor and turn it backasswards so it will lign up.

 

I dont quite understand what your saying.

Ben

 

ttt

 

Actually, do these things have mechanical advance? If so how much, because I was trying to set it and keep the rpms up around 2 grand to keep the cam oiled good to break in. If it has mechanical advance that could be the problem. I may need to let it idle while I set it. Let me know if this is a possibility.

Ben

 

Heh, you were trying to set the timing to 8 deg at 2k rpm?
The timing needs to be set at idle and in gear (for auto's).
If you hace a computer controlled carb then I don't know what needs to be disconnected to set the timng. For a non CC carb/dist you disconnect the vacuum line to the vacum advance cannister and plug the line.

 

Yes, I was. I also asked about this on camaroz28.com. One guy said that these dont have mechanical advance. I dont know if he is right or not. What he seemed to think was my problem was the carb. He seemed to think that it was probably running lean on the passenger side of the carb on the primarys because it was the 2 furthest cylinders and they would be the last to get the fuel from that side of the carb. I think I will try setting the timing at idle and in gear when I have someone else here to help me but I dont know if that is the problem or not. Does anyone know if it could be what that guy said about the carb and if so how I adjust the primary mixture on a computer controlled q jet?

Ben

 

You can't adjust the mixture very much; certainly not enough to make it do that.

But, one side of the carb does not feed all the cyls on one side of the engine.... each half of the carb feeds 2 cyls on each side. Look at the intake manifold runners, you can see plainly which cyls are fed by which half of the carb.

 

So then in that case, is there any mechanical advance on these distributers? Man, I really need to figure out what I did wrong.

Ben

 

Unimportant question, but what does ttt stand for ? I see this on here all the time and cant figure it out. Anyways I am also following this post because I will be starting my car soon and the dist. is also out and I have never set valve lash or timing either.(new timing chain, rockers and cam, etc., etc...) I know I'm going to need help!

 

If you have the computer-controlled dist, then there's no mechanical advance.

You do know of course that you're supposed to disconnect the big 4-wire plug behind the dist that goes to the ESC to set the timing, and then hook it back up when you're through.... if you set the timing to the base spec with it hooked up then you'll be about 12° retarded, and if it's not hooked up at all, the timing will be as much as 35° retarded from where it should be under some circumstances.....


ttt = to the top

 

Yup, I have been disconnecting the 4 wire connector to set it and then plugging it back in. I guess that rules out my idea that it could have been from setting it with the car at 2000 rpms huh. Well, I am just clueless now. Could it be that I dont have the dwell set on the carb yet? Also, if the idle screws were a different ammount on each side of the motor what would that do? I was looking and the little idle adjustments in the base on both sides are out a different amount. Do you need a special tool to adjust those because they are oblong and I dont know what I would use to adjust them. I did notice that both of the primarys that got hot were coming from the same side of the carb and were the ones that were furthest away from the part of the carb that they were feeding. Also the one that actually glowed was the farthest. Also could someone tell me physically on the motor what kind of things could cause this timing to want to be so far off. Like I asked before is it possible it is the timing chain or not because it is more valve timing not ignition correct? If the carb was maladjusted or something was wrong with it could it cause these problems and it to die when I tried to set the timing correctly?

Thanks again

Ben

 

Well, I talked to a friend of mine's dad who is an ASE certified and trusted mechanic and he said that his guess would be a vacuum leak by the #7 cylinder. I am going to set the timing at idle and check for vacuum leaks.

Ben

 

Man this is pissing me off. I just tried to start it and get the timing set. It still didnt want to run very well with the timing down but I was able to get it set lower since I wasnt holding the rpms up. I plugged the connector back in and it still didnt want to run unless we kept the rpms up. Well, I do have to mention that it is currently like 25 degrees out. This time all 8 primarys started to glow and did it all at the same time. I couldnt even really check for a vacuum leak because it wouldnt idle well enough.

I dont know what to do next. I this is the first time that I have ever had to start up a new motor like this and I dont have anyone experienced around to help out. The thing that keeps sticking out in my mind is that it still wanted to be very advanced in order to start and run, though I was able to get it down more since I was setting the idle at a lower rpm.

On the quadrajets idle mixture, is farther in or out richer or leaner, and does this effect rpms above idle also? I set them to almost 7 turns out because that is what I read to set them to on these boards and they were both set at different amounts before. I did notice a black puff of smoke when the thing would first start each time but didnt seem to do it while running. I know that black smoke indicates a rich mixture, but glowing primarys is supposed to indicate a lean mixture.

I would really appreciate any more suggestions and will answer any questions to the best of my ability.

Thanks

Ben

 

Here's a picture of the "teeth" of the distributor shaft that
RB83L69 mentioned earlier. The pickup coil also has teeth like these that point inward toward the shaft.

 

Here's that pic.

 

Thanks for the picture. I dont know if timing is my main problem though. I think that the carb may be running to lean. Actually, I dont know anything for sure, but I think I got the timing set pretty close for a good starting point but it will hardly run(especially at idle) and it is causing all of the primarys to glow now.

Ben

 

I got her fixed. I think it was a combination of 2 things. I put a new ignition coil on and it started up a hell of a lot better, but the timing still didnt want to set down to where I thought it was supposed to. Anyway, I was looking at the old 305 balancer which I knew had the timing mark up behind the water pump and it got me thinking about how it compared to the keway vs how the one on the motor was. Well, I decided to go to the parts store to check out one like I had on the 350. I asked the guy to see it to see if the 78s was like that or if it used the old timing mark location. He tried to tell me that I needed to get rid of the computer because it was definately the problem and I wouldnt be able to figure out anything by looking at the balancer. He tried to tell me that my carb and my balancer was conflicting. What a jackass. I told him to just bring it out and he did. Well turns out that the balancer for the 78 truck motor used the same timing tab as my 305 and I was trying to set it with the other style. Runs great now.

On the other hand, I think that I really do need to set my valve lash now(at the real top dead center). I think I was getting some valve train noise.

Ok, now I am thinking about it and I dont understand why it runs when I set the timing there though unless I just got lucky. I put the distrubuter in with it at the other top dead center. It didnt seem to me like it was aiming exactly where it should have, but as close as I could get it. Do you think that it was on the right tooth and setting the timing to the right mark would line it up? It wouldnt run otherwise would it? If anyone has an explination I would really appreciate it.

I really appreciate everyones help, and do have to say it has quite a bit more get up than the wimpy lg4.

Ben