I think its the rear gear. 2.77:1.
that plus the TH350 is 2.5:1 first gear.
1st gear ends @ 60 MPH. yeah thats what i said. WTF.

it, er, IS my rear gear holding me back right? not somthing undeterminable?

 

that was not in your car with the blower was it?

 

the gears are definetly a problem. but some more specs and info would be great.

 

also hows traction? cause that seems to be a pretty high mph for such a slow ET.

 

no there is no blower on THIS motor! heh. thank ***!

traction? i couldnt spin the tires if i tried. I powerbraked the motor till it turned blue (well the tranny temp guage started to move) but i could not spin the tires. *sigh

Heres more specs on this motor.

9.5:1 compression, aluminum 175CC heads, performer RPM intake, 650 Holley, XE262 Comp Cam (218/224@.050 110LSA), headers, no cat.
15* initial, 36* total. 93 octane.

2400 Stall 12" converter. Th350 tranny. 2.77 rear gear. no posi.

thing moves good from a roll. but my sorry 305 can take it from a stop.

 

Those gears are bad, but nonethelesss you should be able to do a lot better than that, especially given you at least have some converter going.

I think your problem is simple. Probably completely out of tune. Even a 305 with a stock converter can light up the rears with a 2.73 rear. If you can't do that, then something is just way wrong. I mean, have you even tried rejetting the carb or playing with timing yet?

 

Something's wrong. You should be able to burn the tires to the cords, even with those gears. 2.77s aren't that bad. I used to run low 14s @ 97 in a car with 2.29 rear gears.

 

sounds like a serious tuning issue... even with those gears you should be able to pull a much more respectable time then that.. and if you cant melt the tires something defently wrong... with a very similiar set up and a th350 i was able to red line the car in one spot in 3rd gear powerbraking.. had a little more cam and compression 2 it but not much.. what kinda shape is your torque converter and trans in? is it possible that the trans is slippin? broken stator in the tc?

 

You may have a bad converter.
If it's a towing converter then consider switching to a
vig or yank 3000

 

Are those G-Tech numbers or track numbers?My buddys G-Tech
is close on e.t. but always high on mph.Your carb is it a d.p. or
a v.s.?

 

my buddies 69 granFury 440 ran a 14.9 with a 2.92 (something like that) rear....his traps were like 94s but his 60' times were like 2.7.....whereas my 60' times were like 2.01 but my traps were like 88....gotta love those 305's.....as for out of tune, if it's running 15.5 @ 97MPH i don't think it's a tuning problem....it's probably traction....i had a long discussion over the rear of that fury and the rear is probably why your times are so bad....youd probably drop a full second or more with 3.43s or something like that.....i mean....the launch is everything.....what were your 60' times?

besides, with a 2.77 rear, it's pointless to smoke your tires because your low end is so weak you wont' even spin tires with those gears, you don't have a posi rear either which isn't helping the fight.....switch the rear...go from there...

 

2.77 in an 83? this would make sense on the numbers if it was a g-tech time.

 

my times are just the oposite 14.3 @ 93 mph

 

I know what you mean. I've run (not in this car) a 14.5 @ 96 mph and I was having traction problems.

King...... you certainly have some traction problems, whether you know it or not.

 

yeah its a G-tech time for you. I knew the MPH was a bit high, but even if you subtract a few MPH its still a really high MPH for the E.T.

Consider this. My stock 305 runs a 15.7 E.T.
If both cars are moving about 15 MPH, and they race, the 305 dies horrably. not only does the 305 INSTANTLY fall behind, it falls further and further away.

The car is no slug from a role. I can take a stock LS-1 from a 25 MPH roll. its not slow by any means.

But its launch is absolutelly disgusting. it takes a few seconds for it to get out of its "converter" zone and into the power band where it can start moving the car. thats where its dying.

I've tried a few different things with it to help it out. I swapped the camshaft from a performer RPM cam to this XE262 hoping for more torque. I swapped from a 650 DP to a 650 VS, then back because it was even slower with the VS carb. I swapped from a probillet to a different pro billet with Vacuum advance. I went from a 4-speed muncie to this Th350. I changed tire sizes, these are much bigger and taller and wider, thus ALOT harder to spin i suppose. 275/65/15. I've messed with the advance ALOT anything over 36 makes me nervous at WOT because you cant hear ping its too loud.

all in all, in runs good, gets decent fuel economy, and has Excellent power from a roll.
it just cant manage from a stop. I wish i could Gtech it from a roll.

 

I'd have to agree with Ed Maher. My basically bone-stock '86 305 and 2.77 gears will blister tires if I stay on the throttle. You have an issue or two with power production or transmission, but you can't blame the gears themselves.

 

yes vader so can my 89' 305. but it also has a better 1st gear 3.07:1 instead of 2.5:1. and it also has a peanut cam which is ONLY good for low end torque, and makes gobs of it compared to most hot 350's, up until a certain point.

its still not FASTER nor does it have as much POWER but the gearing is a bit better, and so is the engine/drivetrain combo.

if it was the trans it woulda been quicker with my muncie 4 speed. if it was the carb it woulda been quicker with the other 4 carbs its had. it even had a blower for a short short period, and still, could NOT spin the tires from a stand still. with a blower.

 

i don't think you have any traction problem. i've driven more third gen cars than i care to count and while most of them would spin the tires, a third gen with any decent tire wouldn't. on the stock suspension set up i've seen them cut 1.9x 60's on good street tires. any 305 blistering the tires might want to get something actually soft. even some of the 350 cars i've driven/worked on would barely light the tires and a few of them were far from slow. just people not being cheap when they bought tires. the trap speed is high, but what you may want to do to check it over a bit is compare 0 to 60 times along with the 1/4 times. the g-tech is more accurate on the time than it is the speed most often, although still not a great timing device. obviously, the remedy would be more stall speed. as for beating a stock LS1, no offense but i don't see enough engine there to play with one of them.

 

theres still the fact that you say no matter what it cant spin tires.. i had a very similiar set up with a 277 posi with new radial ta's 275 65's on 15x10's and it would litterly melt em til you felt like stoppin through all 3 gears on a stock geared th350......it really sounds like a bad converter or maybe your stall is way too low for your power band?

 

how many CC's are the dishes on your pistons?
how much piston/deck height are you running?
what's the CC's on your combustion chambers?
What kind of intake manifold?

 

alright. let me add that it WILL actually spin the tires pretty good so long as you can break them loose. such as coming around a corner. If i come around a corner near full throttle it will break them loose, and get into its powerband, and keep them spinning through first gear.

<b>obviously, the remedy would be more stall speed.</b>

Been there, done that. I had a 3800 10" Converter on there, and it was even SLOWER than it is now! the converter would just slip and slip trying to move the car, but it would just sit there. no, more stall speed will NOT help. it will HURT. thats why i dropped from 3800 to 2400, the 3800 was killing my car.

<b>LS-1, no offense but i don't see enough engine there to play with one of them.</b>

I'll admit its not exactly a monster now. When the other cam was in it, it made over 520 Ft. Lbs of torque on a engine dyno... and it WAS dropped into a 700R4 / 2.73 car at that point and it did run pretty good. then the blower was removed for my other motor, and it was put into THIS car. the cam was a bit too big for gear, so i thought, so i put in this XE262. When the engine had the bigger cam it would own LS1's all day long. I would take it to the F-body meet locally and play with them during the drive.

I havnt tried since i swapped the cam though. it may have lost a bunch of top end, but unfortunatelly there still seems to be no low end available.

Thanks for the replys, im going to swap the motor into a 700R4/3.73 car soon and maybe that will wake it up. ill probably put the AFR 195's back on and the blower too.

 

It sounds to me like a carb that is jetted to rich for the bottom end or if running a VS carb the wrong spring. When you had the VS carb on there did you do any tuning to it.

If your used to running a supercharger you probably had the carbs jetted rich already. Just a thought.

 

OK, so you tried swapping a bunch of parts, but i don't see any mention of rejetting the carb or recurving or even playing with base timing. The funniest line of all is "...if it was the carb it woulda been quicker with the other 4 carbs its had..."

ROFLMAO at that one. It is now very clear to anyone reading this thread what your problem (most likely) is. Swapping carbs is not tuning, it's guessing. Until you start rejetting and reworking the carb, you are NOWHERE and are just WASTING everybody's time, including your own.

If tuning the carb is too much work, get a Q-jet. It might make 5 less hp than a perfectly tuned holley, but it'll have 1000x the driveability and low end of an out of the box holley, that isn't matched to the engine at all.

Then again, the nearly 29" tall rear tires aren't helping you much either. You building this thing to do tractor pulls or something?

 

15.5 @ 92, (subtract 5mph for the gtech, and what do you have,) a very ordinary looking time for a completely untuned and cobbled together combo. Hangs with LS1s huh? I bet, 15 second cars that are giving up 120hp always give LS1s a run for their money .

I have an idea. Since you already have the 29" tires in the back you're halfway to being jacked up like a mother already (or halfway to the mud bog event anyway, good catch on that one ED. Tractor pulls. lol, i'm in tears here). All you need now is a 334 stroker with TBI. Then you'll be roasting rustnags all over the place, and be waxing LS1s as long as you get get a crapload of tunning into it. Those 334s really fly, something about the piston to gripshun ratio really makes it go vrooooooom like dirk's gat.

 

Ghostbuster is right on the money, but you may have too much gription
You have 2.77s and put on a 29" tire? My lord.
Gee Cletus, I wonder why dis damn car is slow out da hole.

 

From the looks of your situation, You should probrably just convert to TBI.

your performance is about par for that side of the tracks.

 

<b> "...if it was the carb it woulda been quicker with the other 4 carbs its had..."
</b>

the point wasnt that I didn't tune them. the point was if the carbeurator was broken, causing it to run like crap, it would have worked a bit better with the other carbs. The original carb was an edelbrock. it was matched to the performer RPM package crap. you know, "420 horsepower" thing. its gone because i like holleys.

the next carb was for the blower. it was an 850 blower carb. obviouselly too much for a N/A 355 with a 5500 RPM redline. its in storage.

The next carb was the VS 650. I took it off simply because the secondaries were sticking open, causing it to idle high until you played with the throttle. I've got a rebuild kit on order for it as we speak, I dont have springs or squirters to change for it.

then theres the carb im using now. its been mine since before i built this motor. 650 DP, with all the silly upgrades like extended jets, notched floats, titanium needle/seat etc... and it even has the quick change float bowls. I've tuned the living heck out of this carb, for this motor, and it could use a bigger shot off the line of fuel for sure, but otherwise its perfectly in tune, (my idea of perfectly tuned anyways).

As for the timing, I've messed with it a TON. The car just doesnt run better with more than 36* of timing. the base timing I was running @ 10, now im running 15. I changed the advance stop bushing to compensate, and the springs allow full advance by 2400 RPMS.

<b>Until you start rejetting and reworking the carb, you are NOWHERE and are just WASTING everybody's time, including your own.
</b>
So you see, I have seriouselly messed with this motor. Hours and hours of time devoted to tuning. not saying its on the money, But I AM SAYING I HAVE messed with it, tuned it as best as I know how.

<b>the nearly 29" tall rear tires aren't helping you much either.</b>

Its all I've got right now. They are the tires that came on the car, and they are perfectly fine as far as tread. I didnt buy them, I just dont want to replace a perfectly good set of tires because they are too tall. I'd rather live with a slow car than throw away a good set of tires. Bash the previous owner, Not me.

<b>15 second cars that are giving up 120hp always give LS1s a run for their money</b>

Did you miss the part about "from a roll" and "520 Ft.Lbs of torque" ? how about "performer RPM" or "blower" ?

 

Okay so I take it you're running the dualplane RPM intake,
but let's figure what kind of compression you have.

 

in a previous statement, you said you can take LS1's all day long from a roll, yet later you say that was with the other cam. well, right now your running the other cam and certainly not making 520 ft. lbs of torque. as for the converter, more would help, just not going rediculous like a 3800. i have to agree, cobbled mess.

 

Hey, everyone pile on and wreck this guys thread.

Don't post if you can't add anything valuable. This guy has spent hard earned money on his car. That car is not running near his expectations. He needs help. If you can't help, **** off.

Here's my thoughts........

You're MPH is low. Those 29" tires and 2.77 gears are better suited for speed trials at Bonneville.

Is the cam timing off? Was the g-tech setup properly?

You may want to take the car to someone that has experience with setting up new engines. It's kind of an art. Maybe you know someone that'll work with you and help you do it.

 

what your not seeing is this guy isn't going to be helped by anyone here. he posts times from a g-tech, referr's to how fast the car once was and really doesn't seem to be up for tuning it. anyone here could have told him to bring it to someone else like you did. that is not a usefull post so you **** off. i know i'm not the only one seeing how little help anyone's suggestions or idea's have been to him.

 

Then don't bother posting. What's the point in flaming him? You just don't get the whole idea behind thirdgen.org.

 

I'm still trying to figure out the problems, but I got no answers to my questions yet.
It says he has 9:1 blower pistons which
in my mind probably equate to an actual 8:1 compression ratio.
Combine that with an aggressive cam with a good bit of
overlap and it makes sense to have a huge loss in bottom end power & poor power all around.

Aluminum heads + 8:1 compression just don't go together period.
You need around 11:1 static compression to run well with 93 octane pump gas with aluminum heads even with a low overlap near stock camshaft.

Another thing is that when you use 28" tires with 2.73 gears, it acts just like 2.44 gears & that just doesn't work well with an agressive cam and a carburetor period.

To keep those gears in place means you have to have a much better stall. He said that he tried a bigger stall, but I'd say how about trying a much better stall next time like a Yank or Vig? You know something that actually increases the stall/torque ratio up over 2:1 because that's what it needs.
I think a Vig3400 or Vig3600 would work great.
cheapo stall converters just don't do a lot of good.

 

I appreciate <b>everyones</b> feedback, good or negative, this <i>IS</i> the internet so what else can you expect?

For zippy and everyone else that sees the car as a cobbled mess, <b> I AGREE </b> this is NOT my idea of a perfect car. the motor was built the way I wanted it, to a degree, then i tore it apart to put parts on my other car, the one with the blower and EFI that makes good power and fuel economy. this is just an "extra" that I was hoping to move towards "daily driver status" with some old parts I had leftover, and some new ones I thought would help.

So far, the engine has done its job. I've tuned and worked it over, although I havn't dynoed it with the new cam / carb / intake etc.. I beleive its doing pretty good.

Its the car, thats the cobbled mess.

<b>305sbc</b>
My motor is about 9.5:1 compression with its 72CC heads.
when i assembled the motor for the second time I got rid of the blower pistons, they are TRW flat-tops. Almost zero deck, single trough valve releif, and I even play-doh'd the valve clearances. attention to detail right? This isnt my first motor, but it IS my third motor. I DID have somone help me out with the first two, and Ill be building a fourth here in about a week.

I should mention this cam is not exactly "agressive" its comp's idea of a stock replacment cam, with a little umph. it's supposed to be used with stock gears / converter, thats why I chose it. Lots of people on this board run that cam with stock gears / converter and have good luck. So far, its worked out ok as far as drivability and fuel economy (for a carbed 350) but the power off the line just isnt there.

<b>ok</b> seeing how everyone seems to think my tires / gear is so horrable, (and i agreed from the start) first im going to put some of the smallest tires i can find on the back and see what happens.

In less than 2 weeks I'll have my 383 built, with a blower, and it will be going into THIS car (yes with 2.77 gears) but will have a 700R4 and 2800 9.5" stall behind it.
THIS current motor will be going to my Stock 305RS camaro which has a nasty 700R4, 2800 Stall, and 3.73 gears. the old blower will probably go onto this motor again, and ill probably swap the pistons back to it for 9:1 compression again.

It sounds like a plan to me. lots of work, and time, but it will solve a couple problems and make a few new ones.

and one more thing I would like to point out.
<b>Was the g-tech setup properly? </b>
I used it on my 305RS and got 16.9 @ 82 MPH I used it on my dad's F-150 and got 16.5 @ 85 MPH (i think?) do these times sound accurate? My 305 WAS running low 16's at the track, but that was 30,000 miles ago....

 

rear

 

Any perticular reason you like the 2.77 or what ever they are . I get the impression you are striveing for economy . To each there own . I see alot of G-tech's for sale ( for a good reason ) . If you really like THAT motor setup .....try changeing those rear end gears ( along with those tires ) . who knows ...... it might work . I wish I had the time on my hands that you do

Don't let anyone get ya down . Especially those little Buggers who got nothing better to do than aggre with the mods ....but really have know clue !!!!



Believe it or not .....there are a couple guys on this thread that probably could have designed the freaking space shuttle so take there advice ....IT DON'T GET ANY BETTER


good luck man

 

this is weird becuse my gtech ses im running 15.3@93 and i have a L98 gta with a bunch of bolt ons and stuff but my tires are allmost bald so maybe traction is my and your problem would be my guess the gears should be fine i also agree that it may need a little tuning.

 

that isnt that bad of a time for a gta with "bolt ons" i would think it should be about half a second or a sec faster though.. the type of bolt ons you have would be a factor 2..

 

i know somethings listed are just not performance related its my own list of things i have done.



Date Description of Work
new brakes
air foil
under drive pulleys
b&m shift kit
flow master muffler
400 h.p. fuel pump
bbk fuel presure regulator set @45lbs
timing advanced to 8*btdc
hollowed out cat
new 2 1/2 ex. pipe
new mass air meter
new computer
new ignition module
new plugs
polly graphite trany mount
new m.a.f. relay
ported upper plenum
a.i.r removed
160,fan switch
180,thermostat
high performance ignition (accell)
homemade air induction

 

<b>Any perticular reason you like the 2.77 or what ever they are . </b>

I HATE these 2.77 gears. Its a 9 bolt, so a gear swap isnt in my price range. a rear end swap is, but its not in the near future. I would love 3.73's, thats why the motors going to a 3.73 body. heh if you cant change the gears, try changing the motor right?

<b>update</b>
I can officially leave rubber. going from my 28" 275/60 tires to my 215/60 26" tires allows for a bit more "gearing" artificial as it is. i can spin em anytime in 1st, but not in 2nd. well its getting better.

<b>I've also</b> compiled a video of the cam swap and the Gtech run, which I found to be <b>false</b>

The <b>Gtech</b> reports a 15.5 @ <b>95 MPH</b> while I know for a fact 2nd gear @ 6000 RPMS is about <b>115</b> Mph, which means my car hit the end of the 1/4 mile way before the Gtech said anything. it also assume a lower speed. the <b>Gtech is wrong / incorrect</b> so my car is probably running better than 15.5. You can see the run in the video, it should be on my website by tonight. its 4.5MB, super low quality.
Instant message me for high quality video(s) of my car if you like.
Kingtal0n is the aim name.

Www.geocities.com/kingtaling
Just hit the link

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