Tech / General Engine Is your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: CARiD

More Conceptual Help Needed!!

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Apr 20, 2003 | 08:17 PM
  #1  
GofasterFirebird's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,287
Likes: 0
From: Warsaw, Indiana
Car: 1991 Firebird
Engine: 427 LSX
Transmission: Turbo 400
More Conceptual Help Needed!!

OK, I am doing a report on the DIY WB O2 sensor. My question is that in an ideal world the proper air/fuel ratio is 14.7 to one. When max power is desired, the a/f ratio drops to around 12 to one or so. Could someone please enlighten me to the reasons for this?


My hypothesis is that the mixture at WOT is not perfectly homogenous and more fuel is needed to mix with the oxygen in the intake charge. Once the a/f ratio becomes too rich, the fuel displaces the oxygen and thus results in power loss. Too lean, and there is not enough fuel i enough time to mix with the oxygen. Thanks!!
Reply
Old Apr 20, 2003 | 09:16 PM
  #2  
OMINOUS_87's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,824
Likes: 0
From: Mesa, AZ: Transplanted from Chicago, IL
Fuel helps cool the chambers so I imagine it may have something to do with the affect of temp on the mixture but also has something to do with not exploding pistons with runaway detonation that can be induced from the sudden rise in temp.

Dont know for sure.
Reply
Old Apr 21, 2003 | 10:59 AM
  #3  
GofasterFirebird's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,287
Likes: 0
From: Warsaw, Indiana
Car: 1991 Firebird
Engine: 427 LSX
Transmission: Turbo 400
Vader, Ed? Anyone?
Reply
Old Apr 21, 2003 | 12:08 PM
  #4  
rustybluebird's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Car: 87 Firebird
Engine: 350, 416's, 230/230 cam, torkerII, q-jet
Transmission: T5
14.7:1 is the best balance of power and efficiency.
15:1 , better milage. 14:1 , better power.
you have to sacrifice some fuel economy to achive the best a/f ratio for power and vice versa.
Reply
Old Apr 21, 2003 | 05:27 PM
  #5  
GofasterFirebird's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,287
Likes: 0
From: Warsaw, Indiana
Car: 1991 Firebird
Engine: 427 LSX
Transmission: Turbo 400
Thanks for responding but I know that. But why?
Reply
Old Apr 21, 2003 | 07:06 PM
  #6  
kevinc's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,963
Likes: 3
Car: 1982 Z28
Engine: LS1
Transmission: T56
Originally posted by GofasterFirebird
Thanks for responding but I know that. But why?
It's all about the chemistry...a given number of moles of oxygen will oxidize a given quantity of gasoline. Compromises are made in automotive design, even the ideal 12.8:1 WOT ratio (richer than stoich) is a compromise to prevent engine failure.

Whip out a chemistry book and go to town, you'll learn everything you need to know about stoichiometric air:fuel ratio.
Reply
Old Apr 22, 2003 | 08:59 PM
  #7  
GofasterFirebird's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,287
Likes: 0
From: Warsaw, Indiana
Car: 1991 Firebird
Engine: 427 LSX
Transmission: Turbo 400
Even my Internal COmbustion book is unclear why this compromise is made. How does it prevent engine failure? So a pro stock car or somehthing would run leaner ratios b/c of less concern with engine failure? I was under the impression that the richer than stoich ratio actually did make more power. Thanks
Reply
Old Apr 22, 2003 | 09:41 PM
  #8  
rustybluebird's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Car: 87 Firebird
Engine: 350, 416's, 230/230 cam, torkerII, q-jet
Transmission: T5
alot of people forget that stoichometric is "theoretical optimum" and also assuming "ideal conditions".
in theory if you mix air/fuel 14.7:1 and ignite it there will be no extra fuel or oxygen left over.
in a real engine it takes an air/fuel ratio of between 12.5-12.8:1 to burn all the oxygen, due to real world conditions.
runnning stoich in a real engine leaves unburnt oxygen in the exhaust.
hope this clears up a few things.
Reply
Old Apr 22, 2003 | 10:29 PM
  #9  
Ace_Murdock's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
From: Peoria, IL
Car: 1985 Z-28
Engine: a big one
Transmission: 4 spd auto soon to be a 6 speed
if you lean out the mix to something like 15:1 the temperature of the flame will increase. when you richen up the mix, it will cool down the flame.

i believe what happens, is when you make the mixture rich like 12:1 it takes longer for the flame to completely burn through, and i suspect that only lower rpms can benifit from this. the higher rpms will just spit out flames out of the exhaust port.

just my .02

if you want to find more information on this, you need to crack open a thermodynamics book. if you look in the back in the chemical reactions chapter you can find what you are looking for.

andrew
Reply
Old Apr 24, 2003 | 04:11 PM
  #10  
Ace_Murdock's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
From: Peoria, IL
Car: 1985 Z-28
Engine: a big one
Transmission: 4 spd auto soon to be a 6 speed
ok, last night i talked to one of the M.E. seniors here at my college and he gave me a reason for your question in a very simplified way.

if you run an engine slightly lean, you get good emissions and a better flame burn, but it is not good for the overall life and dexterity of the engine. now when you run lean, the flame gets colder, but heat transfer inside of the engine increases, making the cylinder, heads, and exhaust valve hotter.

if you run the engine slightly rich, you get more power, but loose on the emissions and fuel economy. the flame also burns hotter when the engine is run rich.

stoich is all around optimal, but there are many variables that define what stoich is for a particular engine. these include fuel type, inlet temp, humidity, and who knows what else.

hope this is correct, and that it helps with your paper

andrew
Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
IROCZ1989
North East Region
7
Jan 24, 2016 03:55 PM
kitt23
Exterior Parts Wanted
2
Aug 15, 2015 12:37 PM
Zachattack0925
Transmissions and Drivetrain
4
Aug 12, 2015 09:52 PM
86camaroman201
Fabrication
0
Aug 11, 2015 10:39 PM
GEmrsn
Interior Parts Wanted
3
Aug 8, 2015 03:15 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49 AM.