Hello folks,

I've got one dead ragtop sitting in my driveway and I'm flat stumped as to what is causing the problem.

Here's some history and what happened the day it died.
It's a 1991 RS with a 305 VIN E TBI engine, auto tranny, and everything is stock, no major mods or anything fancy done to it other than a stereo which was installed 5 years ago and a open air filter element added over a year ago.

The car whether cold or at operating temperature takes about 3 to 5 seconds to start. (could be signs of a failing starter that is 12 years old.) Other than that it ran just fine. Well Saturday June 7th we hopped in the car and headed out for breakfast which was a 5 minute drive. We then drove over to Walmart which was about a 1 minute drive. Did our shopping and loaded the car, hopped in and the car turned over for about 3 seconds and then just died, the starter just would not turn over.
I immediately thought starter or fusible link.

I shifted the auto tranny in park and neutral several times to no avail. We then called AAA and the guy jacked up the car and banged on the starter several times while I turned the key, and again nothing.
So we put it on the stretcher and hauled it home. It sat for a week and I tried again and still nothing.

Since then I've been researching past messages here and have come up with some leads, but nothing that truly solves my problem, nor gets the car to turn over.

Here's what does and does not happen with the car.
All electrical devices in the car are functional. Power windows, headlights, blower motor, windshield wipers, stereo, power door locks, buzzer and anything else work fine.
Insert key and key alert buzzer actives while driver door is open, turn key to start position and all gauges and lights come on like normal.
I'll answer some of the questions ahead of time from other posts?.
1. Does the car have VATS? (Is there a black resistor pellet in the key?)
YES
2. If so, what does the SECURITY light do when you try to crank?
Comes on for 2 seconds and then goes off.
3. Does the temperature gauge needle move when you try to crank the engine?
Yes, pegs all the way to the right.
4. Do the indicator lights illuminate (test mode) when you try to crank?
Yes, check engine light stays on at all times and park brake light comes on.
5. Have you tried to tilt the column to different positions to start it?
Yes, and no difference.

Today June 14th I grabbed my 1991 Chevrolet Camaro Service manual and started digging to see what the problem might be.

My first tasks were to rule out all the simple things including, checking the battery and cables, checking all the fuses, inspecting the fusible links, and checking for possible codes. The only code that came up was a code 12 which means everything tests ok.

Then I started my 7 hour journey through the service manual. I mainly focused on the wiring since that is a common problem amongst thirdgen cars. I followed all the wires coming from the battery to the starter into the car.
I tested the starter enable relay, gear selector switch and ignition switch and all 3 tested fine except for the black and yellow wire on the starter enable relay switch.

And here is where I get stumped.
If you have a manual like this perhaps you can help me understand the testing procedure.
Page 8A-30-5 step # 3 reads??

Turn ignition switch to START.
1) If there is battery voltage at terminal B (which is the black and yellow wire) in the START, go to section 8A-133 PASS Key System Diagnosis.

2)If terminal B has 0-1.5 volts in START, continue with diagnosis on the following pages. The condition exists in the Ignition Switch or Starter System.

Testing the starter enable relay left me with option #2, I only had 1.5 volts reading on my meter.
So I proceeded as the book says to do. It reads??..

Page 8A-30-6.?.
A: Engine does not crank and the starter solenoid does not click (table one)
Measure: VOLTAGE
At: Starter Solenoid
Conditions:
1) Ignition Switch: START
2) Gear selector switch: PARK (auto)
3) Clutch depressed (manual)

Measure between Correct Voltage For Diagnosis

S (ppl) & ground Battery See 1

S (ppl) & starter Battery See 2
Motor mounting
Bolts

* If the voltages are correct, replace the starter solenoid. Refer to section 6D
1) Go to table 2 (auto) or table 3 (manual)

2) Clean starter Motor mounting bolts and starter motor to create a good ground to engine block.
Scrape away any excess paint, rust, or dirt.

Well, I did the step above and I get nothing at the starter solenoid. (aka purple wire on the starter)
But the book leaves you with nothing to go on from this point. And there are several other points you must go through and pass before you get to this point. All of which checked out just fine.

Ok first thought was that the purple wire going from the gear selector switch to the starter solenoid is bad.
So I did a ohm meter check on it and everything is fine with the purple wire going to the starter, but I get no juice at all when I try to start the car. Both the gear selector switch and the ignition relay check out fine.

Other things I have checked include:
Fusible link (G) which goes from the starter to the alternator and it checks out just fine.
Fusible link (J) is also operative and working properly.
Inline fuse located near battery is also fine.
I also checked the wire harness on the gear selector and starter relay. All wires check out fine.

The only thing I have not checked at this point is the starter and the fusible link (B) which leads to the ignition switch and the fuse block. This is the double fusible link located on the starter.

I?ve not tested the starter simply because I found the solenoid is not getting any juice anyway. So dead solenoid or not the thing won?t fire if there?s no juice getting there in the first place.

Is there a easy way to test fusible link (B) without having to yank down the fuse block?
Is there something I?m missing all together?

Sorry this is soooooo long, but at least you have some info rather than a few lines saying "car won?t start"
Signed?..
Scratching my head in Southern California.

(edit)
I forgot to mention that the car died while I was cranking it. With the key in the run position.

 

Short and sweet, check the fuseable links on the starter, next check the starter realy, not sure where it is on your car but on mine it is behind the driver side kick panel.
If all this fails, start at the ignition switch, make sure power is going out in the crank position, if it is, folow that wire to every connection it makes and keep looking for voltage.

 

you could always take the starter to be tested to illiminate that possiblility

 

I agree with 89RS, start simple. Bench test your starter or take it in to get tested.

 

I agree with both of you and next weekend I'm going to do just that.
But it still will not solve the problem of no power getting to the starter solenoid via the purple wire. (of which I tested, and it's fine from the starter to the gear switch, where it ends)

I just checked all my fusible links something like 6 of them and they all tested fine.

So now I'm starting to think the problem may be in the ECM or one of the four grounds are bad. And I'm really gonna hate working on the two grounds located on the back of each head.

well, I'm done for the weekend as far as working on it. Now it's time to head to the mountains and sit by a stream and ponder over this.
I'll be checking in here throughout the week to see if there are any more things that I may be missing.

Thanks for the tips to this point.
When I get this solved I'll definately post my solution. I'm sure others have either had or will have the same problem down the road.

Sincerely
Holger

 

Just got back from the mini vacation and I did some thinking.

There is another problem with the car...
Leaking coolant, and has been for several months.

It's leaking coolant on the T pipe that is located on the pass side near the exhaust manifold by the strut tower.

You know, the one that goes towards the heater core, way down low in the car.

Well, when I first "creepered" under the car I saw fluid on the pass side Y pipe and some on the starter. It's clear and has no oder. First thought was coolant.

Now here's my question.......

If this coolant got into the starter would it cause the internal wiring in the starter to go kaput?

Because I'm now thinking that a wire fried inside the starter causing me to lose my ground from the starter to the engine.
Thus not completing "the loop" and causing me to get a zero reading on the purple "S" terminal on the solenoid.

Everything else at this point checks out fine.

Keep in mind here folks, I get a zero reading at the purple wire at the starter, with the key in the ignition and in start/run mode.

My bet it is the starter and I pray that I'm right. But I won't find out till next weekend.

Who do you think sells a better starter?
Autozone, Pecker boys, or Kragen?

I researched some threads on starters and it's a big whawhoo as to which sells a decent starter. And from the threads I've read on the mini high power starters....... they seem like a big hassle for the higher price. Gotta get this and that because of the heat thing.

Thanks for the support here guys!

 

Starters are expensive and its hard to get good rebuilt ones from auto parts stores. If you are going to pull it anyway, have it tested. I really doubt that the coolant did anything to the starter, think about where it sits and what all gets thrown on it while driving. I've had leaks in the past that ran down over the started and they did nothing to it, in fact I'm still running the same starter the car came with 18 years ago.
If it happens to test bad, i would look into getting a brand new one from GM, it will cost more, but the chance of you having to pull it out a month later are slim to none.

 

Pull your starter, goto Autozone, have them test it, it passes, then good, it's not the starter, if it fails, then you don't have to pay the core charge =)

Don't go too deep with your problem, mine turned out to be a stat incorrectly put in, the intake connector, and (more than likely not) relays.

Short and sweet. (and frustrating as hell for me since I took the in depth road)

 

Three words......

NUETRAL START SWITCH

If your car wont start in Park, try all the gear settings. (SET YOUR EMER BRAKE FIRST).

Or, set the brake, turn the ignition key to start and hold it there with your LEFT hand, with your right, slowly move your gearshifter from Park to Low 1. If the starter hits somewhere in between, you've found your problem.

That'd be my first suspicion.

RB

 

Did you do a spark test?

 

Just a update, and a bump to the top.

The car is still dead and no signs of life.

Bought a self powered test light and a remote hand held starter switch today.

At this point all the wires to the starter are removed and the battery is disconnected.

The purple wire going to the starter (s) terminal keeps on buggin me. So I tested it with the test light.
When I tested between the connector that would be attached to the starter and the harness at the gear selector switch. Nice bright light meaning the wire is fine.

Now here is the problem.....
Just for kicks I decided to hook up a part of the test light to a ground on the car and the other end to the purple starter wire connector and I also get a light but not as bright.

So if I'm thinking right here, this wire is grounding to the body at some point in the wire.

My problem is.....
Does this wire ground when the car is not running so it won't enable the starter solenoid?

I've not tested this purple wire with everything hooked up because it's after dark and I can't see a thing outside.

Tomorrow (sunday), I'm going to hook everything back up that I've taken apart except for this purple wire and test it with the ignition key as if I were going to start the car.

Then I'll hook up the remote starter to see if the starter is shot or not.

I may be wrong, but I'm thinking as soon as I hit the switch on the remote starter it will fire over.

I'll post again on Sunday with my results.

 

as it has been said befor.... just take the starter out and test it. 9 out of 10 times its the starter. if it won't crank at all its most likely

A) the starter
B) fuseable link
C) starter relay (driver side kick panle under the rubber crap)
D) Dead battory (other stuff in the car may still work but it doesn't have the juice to crank)

check all that if still nothing look for a bad ground or a wire that may have gounded its self

 

I had the same problem, car would have no sound when i tried to start.....

HOLD the starter relay, while you try turning the key, if it vibrates softly, you know it's bad or not getting enough voltage....

Then check the ignition switch, in shich case it's located on top of the steering column....

Both the ignition switch and starter relay, both will run you less then $25, and it's good to have new ones anyway to thrawt out future problems........

 

THREE WORDS........

SLACKETT NAILED IT !!!!!!!

Sorry for shouting.

It was the Neutral Start Switch.

Spent the last 4 hours trying everything under the morning sun with no luck.

Everyone kept thinking it was the starter, but something told me it wasn't.
I hooked up the hand held starter trigger and the starter kicked over fine. Which left me right back at square one.

So I kept looking through my GM Service manual to see if I was missing something.
Mainly focusing on the purple wire going to the starter solenoid.

The starter relay switch was working fine and everything from there tested fine. Then I came across a section in the book that mentioned taking apart the Neutral Start Switch for inspection. I did some testing in the car knowing that the tan and purple wire make a connection at this point.

Using my self powered light I checked to see if there is any contact being made and there was not. (BINGO) :lala:


I then took it apart and found it was all gunked up with electrical silicon that had formed a black gunk on the copper contacts.
I cleaned the contacts using some sand paper and tested the unit throughout the operating range. It worked fine now. I installed it back into the car and crossed my fingers.

Then to my surprise it fired right up and ran like a champ.

I tried it about 5 or 6 more times and it's just fine. I'm going to get a new Neutral Start Switch and install it while the car is still torn apart in that area. I'd rather have a new one than to go through this again. Plus I rubbed off most of the silicon on there and it would only cause more problems if a soda spilled down into there.

So if your car just stops one day, you might want to check that area first.

I'm so so happy the thing is running again, and even happier that I managed to figure this one out and fix it without having to take it to a electrical shop. That would have been big bucks for a simple little cheapie switch.

Thanks for all the replies here, you have definately been a help guiding me in the right direction.

 

wish i found that sooner.. i would have suggested it after reading your first post.. lol

and people, obviously the prob is before you get to the starter if the starter 'noid wire isnt giving out power to a good ground....

 

where exactly might this nutral start switch be located..
not a newbie just never needed to check that area!

good job finding your porb

 

Center console, atatched to the shifter

 

On a auto tranny it's located inbetween the e-brake and the shifter under the center console panel. It costs a whopping $17 + tax at Autozone. It may be cheaper at other places.

On a stick shift I think it's located by the clutch pedal. I'd have to check my book for sure though.

And it's called a Neutral Safety Switch on a Manual tranny and a Gear Selector Switch on a auto tranny. They both serve the same purpose, just located in different places and called different things.
This is one I'll never forget.

(EDIT)
I was just thinking and it hurts.

It may be a good idea to check this switch like once a year during spring cleaning or something. It only takes about 15 minutes to get to the switch and about another 5 to inspect it.
There are 4 metal pins holding the plastic together which you simply pry open with some pliers. Take a peak inside and see if there is any black gunk on the copper strips. If there are expect problems in the future. This will leave your car dead in the street!

The one in my car just got to the point where there was no contact available no matter how many times you move the shifter back and forth.
Yet it never gave any sign that it was failing at all. While in the Walmart parking lot that day, I know I moved that shifter back and forth at least 20 times and no go.

Something to consider for your own ride if you haven't looked inside there and you have the original part as well.