ok here's the story.
the other day I forgot my walllet and had an eighth of a tank in my car, and I borrowed some what I thought was gas from a friend. 1 1/2 min. after I pour the gas in, the engine refuses to run. ok. it's turning over, that's good. that gas can had something other than gas in it. water? possibly, but no hydro-lock. that's good. So I get it towed home, take off the fuel filter and try to drain out all the gas. it had 3/4 of a tank after all was said and done (3 gal. of 89 octane were later added to hopefully make the mixture burn, but it didn't) flash forward to monday. I get 1/4 tank out before I have to work. that's my work for the day. some on tuesday, but now it's down to the yellow. that's good. I put a charger on the battery. I leave it in the "on" position on accident. while I'm at work It downpours all night. the hoods up, the windows are down, the battery's getting soaked, so is the charger. ok I get home, realize the windows are down, I roll them up, realize my "on" position mistake, and take the keys out.
ok. wed. afternoon, I roll the car into the garage, cuz it's still rainin' today, and I wanna the rest of the gas out and get the new filter in, and everything will be ok. uh oh.... for some reason the fuel pump isn't engaging anymore. the fuse is good. ****... now what? did the car get "zapped" somehow? I can't think of anything. the car still turns over, but the fuel pump never engages. saturday me and a friend will cut off my exhaust (no cat, welded) and rip apart the rear end to replace the fuel pump, and get the tank off, unless somebody can shed some light on this.

HELP!!! --- also which ACDL plugs get jumpered the manually engage the pump?
G & A right?? I did that and nothing happened. overnight the pump died. Help! this is my only mode of transportation.
I have 10 hours of school mon-fri, (HS & College) and have a full time job. I don't have any time until sat. and sunday. I need help right away.

------------------
Bright Red 88' Camaro SC, Rare Spoiler
2.8, 3.42 Open Rear
TCI 3200 RPM Stall TC
B&M Transkit
Sawed Airboxes
83 Z/28 Hood (w/ Functional Scoops)
Ground Effects Red in front, fade to silver on sides
Custom Painted Stock "Z/28" Rims
2.5" Dynomax Catback (Where's the Cat? Must have fell off)
IROC Gages
IROC Taillights
Foglamps
BFG Radial T\A's
235/60/15 Front
275/60/15 Rear
And of course, a loud stereo

 

I'll e-mail you the section in my 1987 pontiac service manual on the 2.8 EFI fuel system in adobe acroabt format. Be warned, it's 7 MB 2 things, if the e-mail address supplied in here is not the correct one, let me know the correct one. Second, if they won't allow a 7 MB e-mail, we can set up a time where I can temporarily put up my FTP server and you can get it from there.
I know how it is working and going to school...and having only one car.
Corry

 

SCSC, apply 12V to the 'G' terminal to manually engage the pump. See what that produces and let us know.

 

how DO I apply the 12 volts...
that's what I don't understand.
Corry, the e-mail addy is correct.
you can send it anytime... I will be home from 5:00 pm to 6:00 pm central time tommorow.. and from 10:00 to midnight
or rather that's when I'll be on...
I wanna figure out what's going on here...
all I hear from my mom is.. "ask your dad for help"
and dad says "when are you gonna fix it"

ok... mom doesn't realize that my father's 69 camaro and my 88 camaro are on opposite sides of the spectrum... what he knows about cars, won't help me one fix, but what I know will..

my mom doesn't realize that I know way more than he does about FI cars. Duh.. he bought an '86 IROC 5.0 TPI in April, and he hasn't done a thing since...
why? he could rebuild the motor (hydro-lock)
but he doesn't know the first thing about FI.
he wants to buy a 350 and use the TPI.
why? the 5.0 will make just as much power, only like a 10 hp diff. but he doesn't know that. stuff like that.. it bugs me. then he doesn't understand why it isn't stick or 350. in 86 there was no 350 (i know there were like 78 or so) and there was no stick in 86 for the TPI's. he's so ****y, thinking his 17 almost 18 (1 month yet) year old is stupid about camaros. I know cars much more than he would ever realize.

ok I did my venting. I didn't even get to start taking the tank out because

1. my topic had no replies when I checked friday.
2. and my friend with a '87 iroc got drunk thursday (why a thurs?) night and subsequently didn't come to school fri.
out cars are nearly identical component wise, so he could help me with the job, because he knows all this sh*t because of his car. but anyway... yeah corry send me what you have, maybe it will help. haynes doesn't always help me too much.

thanks all...

- Dan Briones
"Slow Camaro,
88 Sport Coupe"

 

Here's a code 54 chart I typed in for someone a lonnnng time ago from my GM/Helms service manual. I know you're diagnosing a computer code, but this chart gives you all the wires to test & trace between your battery & ignition & fuel pump. Good luck, let us know how it goes. And go order the GM manual from http://www.helminc.com!


-----------------------------------------------
DIAGNOSTIC CHART FOR CODE 54 (2.8L MPFI ENGINE)
-----------------------------------------------

Preliminary stuff:

Ignition off for ten seconds.
Ignition ON, listen for in-tank fuel pump
Fuel pump should run for 2 seconds after ignition on

Not ok? See "1"
Okay? See "6"

1. Ignition off. Remove the fuel pump relay, but keep the harness connected. This is
____located on the top of firewall, driver's side, on a relay bracket. It's the leftmost
____relay, with a connector that has these wires: Tan/white, black/white, green/white,
____orange, orange.

____Backprobe terminal "A" (that's tan/white, circuit #120) with a test light to ground,
____make sure you can see the test light from the driver's seat. Turn the Ignition to
____on (don't crank the engine/start the car). The light should turn on within 2 seconds.

____Light on? See "1A".
____Light off? See "2".

___1A: Repeat the test on CKT 120 (tan/white) at the rear body connector. You saw this
________connector when you replaced the fuel pump, it's in front of the tank, against the
________top of the underside of the car.

________Light on? Faulty pump ground or pump (ouch!)
________Light off? Fix the open (break) in circuit 120.

2. Disconnect the pump relay. Put the ignition on, engine stopped. Probe the fuel pump
____harness connector, terminal "E" (orange on the edge of the connector, Circuit 340)
____with a test light to ground.

____Light off? See "2A"
____Light on? See "3".

___2A: Repair open in CKT 340, this comes off of both your "computer-and-oil-pressure-
________safety-switch" setup and your "fuel-pump-and-computer-fuse".

________Your fuel pump/ECM fuse is under your hood, screwed down to the upper-frame-rail
________on the passenger side of the car, close to the air cleaner & black fuel-vapor-can.
________You'll see two little black boxes, each with two wires coming out of them, screwed
________down to the upper frame rail by one screw each. One of them has a red wire and an
________ORANGE wire coming out of it- that's your pump/ECM fuse holder. Pop the top off
________to see the fuse. (The holder with red & brown wires is for your MAF sensor, I
________just wrote about it under the Code 34 chart for Brian, on the mailbag below this
________message.)

________Now, two things could happen here. You could have a bad fuel pump fuse- check the
________fuse. If it looks okay, replace it anyway... sometimes a fuse can look good, but
________really be blown. The second possibility- I want you to probe the red wire on the
________fuse holder with a test light to ground. The red wire goes to the positive-
________junction-block on the radiator support- your pump/ECM fuse might not be getting
________any power! If the light doesn't light, check the red wire hookup. However, with
________either case your computer would be acting up, too, and I don't think you could get
________the car to start at all.

3. Connect a test light beteween pump connector pin "B" (black/white wire, CKT450) and
____pin "E" (orange wire from step 2, CKT340).

____Light off? See "3A"
____Light on? See "4"

___3A: Repair open CKT 340. The black/white wire isn't making a good ground. Sorry, I
________don't know where this grounds out to. I'd imagine it goes to a screw on the car.

4. Connect test light between pump connector terminal "C" (dk green/white wire, CKT 465)
____and ground. Ignition to "off" for 10 seconds. Note test light within 2 seconds after
____ignition "on".

____Light on? See "4A"
____Light off? See "5"

___4A: Faulty Relay! Hey that's cool, a $10-$15 part... but didn't you replace that
________already? The manual continues to test the "oil pressure safety switch", I'll put
________that test at the end of this message.

5. Ignition "off". Disconnect ECM A-B connector and check for an open, or a short to
____ground, in circuit 465- that's the dark green/white wire from the relay. It's on
____terminal "A1" of the ECM A-B connector.

____CKT 465 okay? See "5A"
____CKT 465 Bad? See "5B"

___5A: Check resistance across pump relay pins "opposite harness connector terminals B
________and C". Should measure 20 ohms or more to be good.
___________Resistance good? Faulty ECM A-1 connector, or bad ECM
___________Resistance bad? Replace Relay AND ECM.


___5B: Fix CKT 465. If CKT 465 was shorted to ground, re-check for a light "on"
________between harness connector terminal "C" and ground within 2 seconds after ignition
________"on".
___________Get a light? Cool, reconnect your relay
___________No light? Faulty ECM terminal "A1", or bad ECM.

6. Clear codes. Start engine and note service engine soon light. If the light comes
____on, check the code, if it's not 54 or you don't get a light, it's something else
____wrong, or an "intermittant" problem. But you get the code, so I shouldn't have
____even bothered typing this.

7. Backprobe ECM terminal "B2" (that's tan/white, CKT 120) with a test light to ground.
____Ignition off for 10 seconds. Note light within 2 seconds after ignition on.

____Light on? See 7A
____Light off? See 7B

___7A: Faulty ECM terminal "B2" or bad ECM.
___7B: Repair open circuit 120 to ECM terminal "B2".

*** Oil pressure switch test: Our 2.8's have two oil pressure switches. One is for the
gauge panel to control our oil pressure light (or gauge). The other one will keep the fuel
pump running if the relay happens to die while you're driving. I assume the theory was that
if you pull out onto a highway and the relay dies, you don't get killed? Anyway...

OP1. Start the engine, get it up to normal operating temperature. If you can, verify that
______the oil pressure is normal. Disconnect fuel pump relay- the motor should keep running.

______Engine stops? Bad oil pressure switch.
______Engine keeps going? See "OP2"

OP2. Reconnect fuel pump relay. Ignition "off". Find the fuel pump test terminal on the
______ALDL (Assembly Line Diagnostic Link, the connector above the driver's feet you used
______to get the error code out), which is terminal "G" -- the bottom leftmost terminal.
______Probe that terminal "G" with a test light to ground.

______Light off? No trouble found! (Doubtful...)
______Light on? Bad oil pressure switch. Oh yeah this switch is screwed into your engine
_________________block, right above your oil filter, with an orange and a tan/white wiring
_________________harness on it.

Whew.


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards

 

ok she running agin, but poorly.
she backfires like hell, and in the distance it takes my buddys iroc to do 135, mine goes 70. very bad.
supposedly it's the TPS.
I will test it tonight and see.
according to a manual I have, a bad tps can cause severe performance probs, trip other sensors and etc.
which it is doing. It also mentioned in the tranny section that performance probs could give it really mushy shifts.
ALL OF WHICH IT HAS.
unfortunatly, it nearly winter so basically I'm gonna fix it, then stick it in the garage for the winter.
I can't wait till spring, I'm gonna get rid of all the rust and repaint it. And i'm definately gonna have to get a better cam and shifter then.....

how does bright red w/ a gold metal flake undercoat sound? And still have the GFX fade to silver, but have a pearl undercoat on that? here's a pic, so maybe you all can imagine.
<IMGSRC="http://www.nconnect.net/~briones/camrear.jpg>

[This message has been edited by SlowCamaro88SC (edited November 18, 2000).]

 

ok she running agin, but poorly.
she backfires like hell, and in the distance it takes my buddys iroc to do 135, mine goes 70. very bad.
supposedly it's the TPS.
I will test it tonight and see.
according to a manual I have, a bad tps can cause severe performance probs, trip other sensors and etc.
which it is doing. It also mentioned in the tranny section that performance probs could give it really mushy shifts.
ALL OF WHICH IT HAS.
unfortunatly, it nearly winter so basically I'm gonna fix it, then stick it in the garage for the winter.
I can't wait till spring, I'm gonna get rid of all the rust and repaint it. And i'm definately gonna have to get a better cam and shifter then.....

how does bright red w/ a gold metal flake undercoat sound? And still have the GFX fade to silver, but have a pearl undercoat on that? here's a pic, so maybe you all can imagine.



[This message has been edited by SlowCamaro88SC (edited November 18, 2000).]

 

Did you run the diagnostic test? Did you find a problem with the fuel pump wiring, or was it the actual fuel pump?


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Slow,

Leaving the ignition on without the engine running for extended periods can overheat and damage the ignition coil and/or HEI switching module. You might want to check coil resistances.

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"Make Me Bad"
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

 

wow, Vader, I never thought of that.
um, I think something else was wrong before, because the fuel pump would work, and no start.
then the pump went and I replaced it, and empied out the tank w/ good gas.
initially it was running, then slowly but surely it got better to the point where it will run. BUT now I have to give it a little gas (my foot on the pedal) to start. It never did this EVER before.
I was getting TPS codes, so I said F-it, a TPS only costs $25, I I replaced it, it may have helped, and I think it's set right. She still runs like crap though.
My dad suggested changing the distributer cap, since I have a '83 Z/28 hood on it, and It has the air inlets open (no cover). He thought water might have gotten on the cap. It also seems to run rough. Please help guys!
so now it's been a new fuel pump, a new fuel filter, new plugs, and a new tps, and still it runs bad. if you rev it up it stumbles at some point, like it's down on power, and it backfires, but it sounds like it's NOT in the exhaust, like it's backfiring in the throttle body. AND also it seems to be sucking in air like a mother, because I can hear it when i'm in the front of the car, and when the revs get up, I can hear her whistling, almost like a turbo whistle.
I'm lost and i give up, and i can't so anything. I hate this stupid car. especially because it's just a v6.
I need help, and I need it bad, this car is supposed to hibernate for the winter any day now, and it needs to be fixed first.

 

How's your timing?


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

how would the timing be off?
I haven't checked the timing.
I guess I should .... lol

 

I can't find a timing light that will fit into the crevice where the #1 plug is at. The timing has never been adjusted tho, so I don't know how it could be off. On wednesday, I replaced the distributor cap & button, and now it seems to "linearly" stumble. It now has a pop from somewhere up front, like say the throttle body? and when it finally reaches 4500-6000 it backfires from the exhaust. I've spent alot of money on this car lately, and it still sucks.

also, just to be sure, where on the distributor cap do the plugs hook up, where does #1, 2,3,4,5,6, and the extra one go, just to be sure.
___________
/----3o-----\
|4o------2o-|
|----7o-----|
|5o-------1o|
\____6o____/
isn't that the correct way?
w/ plugs 2,4,6 on the drivers side, 2 the frontmost, and 1,3,5,7, on the passenger, with 1 the front most, and 7 being in the same loom, but seperate from the rest, and it plugging into the middle?

before it ran really bad at certain RPMs, but now it's bad throughout the rpm range, and now it's constantly popping underhood, could a bad MAF set this off? I am getting a code 34, for exessive airflow. also gas mileage is like 3-4 mpg now. could I have a leak somewhere?, since I did put a new filter & pump on it? I put 11 gallons in the car yesterday @ 4:00, by 11:30 it read 1/2 a tank, and it was filled earlier. and I drove less than 40 miles.
this car is killing me.
since the earlier prob, i've replaced
the TPS - $27.50
fuel pump - $79.95
fuel filter - $02.99
distributor cap - $17.00
2 low beam lights - $44.00
and gas $50.00
and I've driven 171.44--> last 2 weeks
less than 100 miles

by the way, 0-60 went from 8.5-9.0 seconds to about 35 seconds.

[This message has been edited by SlowCamaro88SC (edited November 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by SlowCamaro88SC (edited November 18, 2000).]

 

oh yeah by the way, it barely idles now. it seriously is a very lumpy 500 rpms. 500 is too low i think. am I right? it's low to the point, that I can't really let the car warm up in the morning, because the idle is so low, that it can and has stumbled and died.

oh yeah, it sounds like a motorcycle now a harley or something, i think it's missing? bad injectors? i need help asap.
this car looks pretty but runs like crap, yaahoo.

- Dan

------------------
Red 88' Camaro SC
Aero Spoiler
2.8 V6, 3.42 Open Rear
TCI 3200 Stall TC
B&M Transkit
Forced Air Induction
83 Z/28 Hood
Custom Painted GFX and Rims
2.5" Dynomax Catback
IROC Gages
IROC Taillights
IROC Foglamps
'92 Z/28 Bowtie Grille
BFG Radial T/A
P235/60/SR15 front
P235/60/SR15 rear

Blue '86 IROC Camaro
305 TPI, 3.23 Posi, Auto
ALL options, fully loaded
(first owner = $ rich $)Bone Stock
Pirelli's
P225/50/ZR16 front
P245/50/ZR16 rear

 

SC,

I'm tempeted to just drive up and take a look. How far into the Dairy State are you? I was just in Mad-Town yesterday, but I didn't see many flaming red IROCs.

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"Make Me Bad"
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

 

Dan,

To date, we've established that you have fuel, an operating fuel pump, new TPS, new distributor cap (and rotor, I'd hope), clean spark plugs, and unaltered timing. I guess we can assume that the engine mechanical condition is at least acceptable, with no burned valves, low compression, blown head gaskets, hose leaks, etcetera.

The constant missing and popping could be a timing issue, cross-firing of spark plugs, weak spark, or failing plug wires. The afterfire out the exhaust could be the result of unburned fuel being ignited by hot combustion gasses. The raw fuel also could be a result of weak spark, cross-firing, or a fuel injector problem.

The low, stumbling idle can also be a symptom of weak wires/poor spark and/or ignition timing. Since your timing chain may have some stretch, at least checking the base timing would be prudent. If you are having difficulty connecting the timing light pickup at the plug area, it is acceptable to clamp on near the distributor.

Since you have a DMM to set the TPS voltage, don't set it aside just yet. You should probably at least remove, clean, and test the plug wires for resistance. Expect about 500-6,000 ohms per foot of good resistance wire, depending upon wire design. Anything over 6,000-8,000 ohms per foot indicates a failing wire, and can cause undue stress on other ignition secondary components and the HEI module that has to saturate the coil for a higher output voltage.

As long as you're measuring resistance, test the ignition coil primary and secondary windings. The primary winding should be between 0.5-1.5 ohms, and the secondary windings should read between 6,000-15,000 ohms.

Even though you have a new filter, the debris in the tank that probably contaminated the filter and fuel pump may have also lodged in the fuel pressure regulator and some of the injectors. A plugged injector will definitely cause a miss, lean condition and the resultant backfire at higher RPM, and possible afterfire in the exhaust. Debris stuck in an injector that forces it to stay open would cause a rich mixture, poor idle quality, afterfire, missing, blackened spark plug(s), poor fuel economy, hard starting due to leak down and flooding, and a potential grocery list of other problems. Your code ‘34' that indicates a low intake air flow could be a result of a misadjusted TPS, air leaks in the intake system, a failing MAF, MAF power relay, poor electrical connections at the MAF and/or ECM, debris on the MAF hot wire, or a failing ECM. I would suspect the ECM is O.K., so start looking at the other areas. If you want to temporarily eliminate the problem, unplug the MAF and ignore the SES lamp for now. The engien should operate at least acceptably with the base lookup tables from the ECM/PROM. Once the missing and backfiring issues are resolved, you can attack the MAF problem, if it still exists.

A fuel pressure gauge might be very helpful in diagnosing your problem. In the absence of a dedicated fuel pressure gauge, you can use a low-side refrigeration gauge. Just make sure you thoroughly drain and ventilate the hose and manifold before using it for refrigeration service again.

Any miss, regardless of the cause, is going to be much more apparent on a V-6 than a V-8. One dead cylinder will make a huge difference in operation, and two dead cylinders may be enough to keep you from running at all.

Another unlikely possibility is that the ECM or alternator rectifier bridge was damaged or the ECM was "confused" by the battery charging due to overvoltage or the pulsating DC output of the battery charger. If the alternator was damaged, it might have a shorted rectifier causing AC voltage to be applied to the vehicle wiring. Any AC component in the vehicle power over 1.5VAC can really "flip-out" the ECM when it is trying to interpret engine sensor signals. You can test for this easily by starting the engine and measuring the voltage at the alternator output stud using an AC voltage scale on your meter. Anything over1.5VAC is not a good indication. If the AC voltage level is acceptable, you might try clearing and reinitializing the ECM to start from square one.

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"Make Me Bad"
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

 

If I had to take a wild guess, I would say your injectors are screwed. Usually when a car dies from water ingestion, that means the water made it all the way to the injectors. The guts of an injector are very prone to rusting, and I am willing to bet, one or more are damaged. I have had to replace anywhere from one, to all six before. That is also what happened to your fuel pump. The water locked up the fuel pump.

I don't know what to tell a "DIYer" how to try and remedy this situation, I have freed up frozen injectors on my car, but I used special equipment. May want to take it to a REPUTABLE shop. Don't take it to "Bubba's".

------------------
If you live in Southeastern US, check us out!
South East Thirdgen


ASE Master Tech + L1
Savannah, GA

'87 Trans Am
S/D TPI retrofit including functional PassKey,
22# injectors,
Ported Plenum,
TB Coolant Bypass,
SSM SFC,
Boxed LCAs,
8mm Accel wires,
Flowmaster Exhaust,
16" GTA rims,
Corvette Servo,
KYB Shocks

'97 Bonneville SSE

 

Oh boy. Either you made a few major typing mistakes, or we've found the problem.

1. Glad to see you know that the #1 spark plug is the front passenger side cylinder.Just about every GM motor had the #1 plug as the front driver's side- but NOT the 2.8/3.1 V6's.

2. The timing can be off for the same reason you think it shouldn't- because it was never adjusted. You don't have to fit a timing light into any crevice; just clip the magnetic pick-up onto the #1 plug wire.

3. The firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6 for the 2.8/3.1 motors. The firing order is read clockwise on the distributor cap. You've got the firing order completely backwards! You have it as 6-5-4-3-2-1. Your diagram should be:

___________
/----5o-----\
|4o------6o-|
|----7o-----|
|3o-------1o|
\____2o____/


Your engine cylinder numbering is:

"firewall"
5---6
3---4
1---2
"front bumper"

The location of the plug wires on the distributor cap, as pertains to "where they are", not "what order they're in", depends on where the distributor was facing when the car was timed. For instance, my #1 plug wire goes to the cap in the front-most-center position; that's different for every car.

Hopefully your #1 plug wire isn't in the wrong spot on the cap (as in, it's where cylinder #3 should be).

So, pull all the plug wires off the distributor cap, except for the wire going to the #1 cylinder. Re-arrange them in the correct firing order, clockwise on the distributor cap.

If, after you re-do the plug wires as I mentioned, the car still runs poorly (or not at all), it's possible your #1 plug wire is in the wrong spot. To figure that one out, you'll need a timing light...

[edit] Hehe, thought I'd add, that if your plug wires are messed up on your distributor cap, then take a look at your old diagram and my correct one- you're only running on cylinders #1 and #4.

------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

[This message has been edited by TomP (edited November 19, 2000).]

 

Tom,

DOH! I guess I missed that one. The bass-ackwards order of the Chevy V-6s should stick out like a sore thumb to us old Bow-Tie guys. I'm glad at least SOMEONE was paying attention.

You may have found the major part of the problem here. Hold on a minute, while I get the rest of the egg off my cheeks...

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"Make Me Bad"
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

 

nonono... it's running just like crap. no "*****" as my sister would say, it idles tom. and I gotta be running halfway right...

vader, I live 30 min. north of milwaukee, and you are more than welcome to come and look at her.

vader and tomP, I really appreciate all the help, you 2 are like the gods of f-body diagnosis here.
gmtech, this is the first time you've had input on any of my probs, so we'll see. lol

well, I'll go get new plug wires, and see if that helps at all. I'll also check where she's hooking up...

I figured the worst it could be would be injectors
I'll get back to you all in about an hour..

 

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the plug wires fixed it, AND my new grille came in (92 z/28 bowtie grille)

I could immediately tell when I started it up. It was like heaven! That sweet burble of a V6 w/ no cat and the dynomax muffler hooked up @ the manifold......

Next project, new cat, new flomaster 80 series (dynomax sux) and all new pipes!!!

Thanks all! I'm so happy, I can't express it. Remember it hasn't been running/running right since the whole darn thing started in early October.

In fact, I went and did 3 donuts in the col de sac (snow here) then went down the road sideways....... I LOVE F-BODY'S!!!!!!!! Don't lock this one quite yet though.....

There is still a underhood popping from the throttlebody??? is discussed before, and a SES light....
fine TPS adjustment and the maf are my next issues, then the flowmaster system
then paint.... I'm so hyper....... happiness & adrenaline do that to you....

[This message has been edited by SlowCamaro88SC (edited November 20, 2000).]

 

Sorry I didn't submit "the winning bid", but aren't you glad is wasn't what I suggested? I was just prepping you for the worst, yeah, thats it.

I'm glad you figured it out.

------------------
If you live in Southeastern US, check us out!
South East Thirdgen


ASE Master Tech + L1
Savannah, GA

'87 Trans Am
S/D TPI retrofit including functional PassKey,
22# injectors,
JET AFPR,
Ported Plenum,
TB Coolant Bypass,
SSM SFC,
Boxed LCAs,
8mm Accel wires,
Flowmaster Exhaust,
16" GTA rims,
Corvette Servo,
KYB Shocks

'97 Bonneville SSE

 

lol, GMTech. I figured that the last resort would be the injectors. Any explanations for the throttle body pops?????

Now if there's any exhaust popping it's due to the actual lack of exhaust.

Right after the manifold, the muffler is there, then after that nothing. side pipes basically, but the exhaust SEEMS too loud since it's right THERE.

I wish it were june all over again....
(then the tranny would be out... lol)

 

Sweet burble, 2.8? All kidding aside, congrats. Any hack can change parts, but not every mechanic can diagnose.

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-Jason M. 1991 Camaro Z28
"Its Blue."

 

SlowCamaro, was it just the plug wires, or the plug wire order? I'd assume the popping would be a result of either your MAF code confusing the computer, or incorrect timing, or maybe the #1 plug wire's in the wrong spot on the distributor.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

I don't know whether it was the wires or t he order. they were 12 almost 13 year old wires though, w/ 62,XXX on them, so it was needed. I think the MAF is screwing up the computer. Today, it was bogging again, and I unhooked the MAF and it got better... I think I need to visit a junkyard or a used car lot for a new one.. lol...

Don't they cost close to $100?

It will have to wait though.... I need the exhaust...

How much would a 80 series flowmaster and a hi-flo cat cost me? The muffler shop will take care of all the piping.

In July when I got the cat-back (before it got chopped) the dynomax cost me $60, and the pipes (from the catalytic convertor back) cost me $75.

So I expect a little over $100-125 from the muffler shop this time since I am replacing so much pipe.

So.... Anyway, The MAF will be next.

 

I found my MAF for $88 or so; got a lifetime-warrantee replacement one out of Strauss Auto. The "insides" of the Pep Boys rebuilt ones looked way different than my original; the Strauss one matched up perfectly.

You can do a visual inspection of the MAF. We have the frequency film sensors, not the hot wire sensors. The orange frequency film should be perfectly flat; no creases or ripples or bends. I've heard you can also tap on the housing of the MAF with the car running, and if the idle acts funny, then the MAF is bad.

There's no hot wire relays to speak of. If you want I can give you a chart that tells you how to check all three wires of the MAF connector.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

well well well, all is not well. The car has run ok lately, then lst thurs. it got really bad, and I unhooked the MAF, and it ran fine w/ no popping or anything. I assumed it was the MAF. So last night I went and bought a new MAF, and for good measure a MAT sensor. SO now it's a new:
MAF
MAT
TPS
Plugs & Wires
Cap & Rotor
Fuel Pump & Filter
Catalytic Convertor
Flowmaster
and all new pipes from the manifold back.

the pipes/cat/flowmaster all get installed monday, but I don't think the car will make it the 20 miles to the muffler shop. Before it sputtered between 2500-4000 (then suddenly @ 4000 it would take off like a rocket) Then usually it would be fine throughtout 2nd, until I let off the gas then it goes into 4th cruisin' @ 2600 on the highway, and it sputters, but usually it will cease. Today it won't go over 25 mph. and it sputters everywhere (in the RPM range). The fuel pump seems to be working extra hard too. I can hear it. A loud low rumble. Then I shut the car off, and for about 2 seconds the rumble continues, then stops, that must be it bleeding off? I also noticed the familiar rainbow on the driveway, so it's leaking something as well. It got better for a few days, but now it's really bad. So for like only a day the car had the juice it used to. Now it's crap again. So Vader, when are you coming up to Slinger to look at my car????

 

Stuck-open EGR, maybe? You could fashion a block-off-plate between the TB and brass-colored accordian-tube; bolt it between the two and see if life improves.

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? That would tell you that your fuel pump, at least, is working as it should.


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

the car won't even make it out of the driveway anymore! I talked to my cousin today (Big Guy @ GM) And he figured that it could still be a weak spark problem, and he suggested checking the Ignition Coil Module. Well it was only $15, so I went and replaced it, and now the car immediately starts up, but still stumbles and all that crap..... I'm at a complete loss here. I think everyone in thirdgen.org should read this. maybe somebody has an answer. IF I can make it to get the car into a dealer, they will have to figure it out. I just don't know anymore. AND WHAT'S WITH THE F*CKING FUEL PUMP BEING LOUD? Obviously it's pumping insane amounts of gas into the cylinders. It's getting too much fuel, and it HAS to be getting the correct amount of spark. I'm gonna go crazy. And I need this thing fixed before monday.

 

I hope you didn't annoy GMTech with that comment - some day you'll need his vast expertise. If you've been on the board for a while, you'd understand how valuable his input can be.

Since the intake popping has deteriorated into a barely-running condition, you might still have an injector problem. Popping in the intake is often a symptom of lean backfire. This can toast a MAF hot wire in short order. What confuses me is that since you live so close to Fond du Lac you didn't get a Wells/Conrad replacement MAF (the last MAF you'll ever have to buy). You should also verify that there are no ductwork leaks between the MAF and throttle body.

Since you've evidently had this lean condition for a while, it might indicate a fuel delivery problem. The extra noise from the fuel pump could also indicate it is working harder. This doesn't mean it is delivering more fuel to the chambers, since that is all a function of the injectors. The regulator may have a problem, causing the fuel pressure to wander off the ideal setting. Debris lodged in the regulator can cause lower fuel pressure. The lower pressure would mean lower fuel delivery and lean operation. This might be a logical cause for the fuel pump noise, since the pump would have to flow more volume in an attempt to maintain reghulator/rail pressure.

It would really be helpful to know the fuel rail pressure at idle.

Incidentally, the pump running for a couple of seconds after you turn off the ignition is completely normal. The auxilliary oil pressure switch provides fuel pump power whenever the oil presure is above 7 PSIG. This means that your engine is still tight enough to hold pressure for a couple of seconds after it stops.

Since you are running without a MAF, the ECM is using the lookup tables to calculate fuel trim. This could be way off what is ideal for your conditions, especially since it's been between 5-25°F here for a few days. If the MAF is still working, I'd plug it back in and diagnose the real problem.

Since it starts well, I'd still check all the ignition components. Coil resistances, pickup coil and reluctor, primary wiring, cap and rotor, and make sure none of your new plug wires are routed too closely to the exhaust and melting through. Take a look at the spark plugs again to see if they lend a clue to the situation. Running rich should be readily apparent. Reset the gaps while you're at it.

P.S. - I hope you have a warm garage to work in.

P.P.S. - If you determine you have an injector problem, I might have a line on some very reasonable injectors from an '85 2.8L V-6. You could send them off for cleaning and have a fresh set to slide in.



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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now"
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

 

Vader,

Your comments about leaving the ignition on for extended periods without running the engine interested me. I know on the older cars the points could get damaged pretty easily, but I never thought it would be a problem for the coil or HEI stuff. What do you think about leaving the ignition on on very new cars?

I install stereos, alarms, and remote starters...I always thought the only issue of leaving the ignition on was extra battery drain. I usually just switch the ignition to "on" to avoid hearing the door chime when the key is in the accessory position. I think maybe I shouldn't do that any more

 

to gm tech... I HOPE I didn't upset you. You might be right yet.... You are among the best of the Tech people here, and I've seen the extent of your knowledge, and it just might be the injectors. Well vader, I just went to West Bend (You might know where it is) went to Advance Autoparts (best prices in town) and got a MAF, And that's why I went there, it was the cheapest. And right now it's hooked up. Tommorow I will check the plugs and see if they can say anything to me. I went and put 4 gallons in the car. And for some reason it seemed to run better. Stumbled horribly @ 2500 - 4000 then took off like a rocket. But I never got it past 45 MPH, so it's still all goofed up. I need to get it to West Bend tommorow by 7:30 am. That's my appointment for the exhaust work.

So, how hard is a injector swap? I have a '85 2.8, with about 4000 (rebuilt) or so miles on it from my sisters old (wrecked) camaro, and maybe I should try to swap injectors and maybe even the FPR....
Vader, what I can't figure out is that in the last 3 weeks it's been slowly getting worse to the point where it is now. I've replaced so much here, that pretty soon I'm just gonna rip out the 2.8 and swap it w/ the other. Seems logical to me.
_________________
"Rubbin' is racin', just don't rub my camaro, ........ if you know what's good for you" - unknown

[This message has been edited by SlowCamaro88SC (edited December 04, 2000).]

 

(sigh) I say this so often... yet nobody pays attention.

The MAF used in V6 2.8l f-bodies is not a hot-wire unit. It uses the orange frequency film.

Anyway, An injector swap is easy; took me a few hours to pull mine and dump in some cleaned ones. Remove the TB, remove the upper plenum, depressurize the fuel system, remove two bolts holding the fuel rail to the intake, remove any steel clips holding the steel fuel lines to the motor, remove the vacuum hose from the FPR, remove the tube from the cold start injector (if equipped), pry the fuel rail out, swing it towards you (rubber fuel lines let it move), replace injectors. Installation is the reverse of removal, of course. It's all in the Haynes 82-92 Manual, as well as the GM book.

I'd imagine your fuel pressure gauge would allow you to diagnose a bad fuel system, but I don't think you ever bought one...?

Also, I don't think you replaced the right part in the distributor, by the price you mentioned. When I rebuilt my distributor, I paid $12 for the pick-up coil (round piece), and $50 for the spark module (black rectangle). (Unless of course your GM friend hooked you up with the right part for cheap!)

------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!


[This message has been edited by TomP (edited December 04, 2000).]

 

tomP so the parts store f-ed up? I told them that it was different, and the guy said that " some companies make remanufactured parts slightly different from OEM parts. It's not my fault, I'll find the receipt and take it back tommorow.

Oh by the way, the car is fixed now. Too little backpressure was killing it....

I got my hi-flow kitty and the flowmaster on, and now the car it running like a top, is launching @ 3400 (as opposed to 3200 w/ the converter) and it's hella fast.... It sounds like a 8 @ idle to 2500... Is this because of the hi-flow kitty letting more noise thru?