84305HO

What timing! New 180cc Pro Toplines lying on the family room
floor and Feb CHP mag in my hand. Bought these heads for their
great (advertised) mid lift flow, .400 inch = 242 cfm. Reality =
203 cfm as reported by CHP on a Westech Superflow bench. Not
even close ! Just sent a email to Shaver Racing to get their
comment and maybe a refund. Another lesson in 'get what you
pay for'. These heads were very inexpensive at $683+ 60 for
shipping. Guess I'll stay with the World's or if I do decide on a
change it will be Trick Flows or AFR's.....
Comments welcome.......

PLANT PROTECTION

iTrader: (6)

Is this a Feb04 issue? If so, have a scan or exact numbers for all lifts?

84305HO

Looks OK at .500 and over but that is not why I bought them:

lift......Int....exh
-------------------
.100 - 58 - 49
.200 - 113 - 93
.300 - 163 - 125
.400 - 203 - 151
.500 - 231 - 170
.600 - 247 - 177
.700 - 247 - 182

Feb CHP magazine

Rippin92RS

Whoa...
In CHP (Sweet 3rd gen article) they tested the stock replacement heads. Did you buy the Lightnings?

-Rippin

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

If you bought the ProTopline lightnings they are NOT the same heads tested. They tested the stock replacement heads.

Check that out first before getting angry or posting false information.

84305HO

I guess you guys did not read the article carefully, let me quote:
"We were thinking about an affordable cast-iron stock-style
head for a street 383. Pro Topline offers true stock- replacement
smallblock Chevy heads with 1.94 inch intake valves. We looked
one step further up the application chart and zeroed in on the
iron heads with 180cc inlet runners, 2.02 inch intake valves, and
compact 64cc chambers, the most conservative pieces in Pro
Toplines extensive line of iron performance and race heads".


Their stock replacement head I think is 165cc intake.

84305HO

So what did you think about the article in CHP. They wouldn't
dare put those heads on a 350 motor with all the comparisons
to Vortec, Trickflow and AFR all which made more than 400hp.
They barely got that with a 383. Another case of the magazine
protecting their source of income from advertisers.

84305HO

I thought this would be a hot topic, with the past few months people asking about Topline flow data. Maybe a lot of people
have not got the Feb CHP yet.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

Pro Topline's heads have been overrated for a long time. Months ago there were several posts about this (albeit a different size head) and many people claimed the heads flowed as advertised because Pro Topline said so You know you really will see a 40HP gain from a Flowmaster muffler! Why? Because they said so...

CHP did a cylinder head flow test a few years back and they flowed like crap! Their 220cc didn't even touch the Sportsman II heads (200cc) if I remember correctly!

I really feel for those that saw those posts and bought the Topline's over the other comparitive heads, like AFR and TFS. They'll all be wondering why the engine just isn't making the power it should.

formularpm

People thought they flowed well because a TGO member posted a copy of his flow bench results... Anyway, funny how a magazine rips on a set of heads, then prints an article praising them several issues later. Personally, I have heard much more good than bad about the Lightning heads, many people are happy with them. Go ahead and send them back though, they are no good.

drain89

iTrader: (10)

I don't know about thier bigger cc heads, but my vortec style toplines (which are stock replacement) are a way better start then the oem ones. The ports on mine were alot better than my stock ones in many places. Not to mention the guides were already contoured. Retainer to seal clearance was big enough to allow a performance cam unlike the stock ones. Bigger spring seats, tapped for 7/16" studs. That would have cost me a decent amount to do on my vortecs. For what I got from my stock vortecs...it ended up saving me some money buying the toplines.
As for a stock replacement head....I wouldn't hesitate going with a Topline version over the oem castings. Especially for a budget street head. Besides, if they were good enough for Joe Sherman...I figured they were good enough for me. Besides, I got a better throat cut, thicker heads to hold up to the amount of spray I'm wanting to do later on. I don't remember his flow numbers, but he flowed them on his bench and the had really good numbers for an untouched oem style replacement head. I figured I'd do some of the work on them covered in the Car Craft vortec head porting article and be even better off then them. I ended up going 383 and got a deal I couldn't pass up on E-tec 200's so I went with them to help feed the 383 better.

Now when you get up to the 180's and up cc runner heads....I'd probably go with the iron eagles or sportsmans, but only because everyone around here that's used them have been happy with them.

Damon

An aftermarket performance head manufacturer that lies about their flow ratings??? NO WAY! Impossible! Nobody would ever inflate their numbers to sell more product!

Welcome to the world of high performance parts. Just about everyone lies. AFR comes the closest to the truth about their product (which is why I buy their heads) but in the real world- when you strap them to an honest flow bench- almost nothing flows as-advertised. Just that some companies "stretch the truth" more than others.

I've been telling people for several years that the Lightnings probably don't out-flow the more humble Dart heads (Iron Eagle and Pro1) in any kind of lift range that matters for street performance. Does anyone listen? No. They see the mind-blowin high-lift numbers and get all weak in the knees. Then they shell out the money.

My choices for bolt-on street performance heads (from worst/cheapest to best/most expensive) goes like this....

1. Stock
2. Dart Iron Eagles or aluminum Pro1's (200cc)
3. AFR aluminum CNC (190/195cc)

The performance (and cost) goes up with every step from 1 to 3. There are other heads out there that do well also, but these always seem to end up on my engines and always seem to make the "real world" power I expect. The cams I use rarely exceed .525 lift at the valve. Street and street/strip kinda stuff- not race engines.

84305HO

I actually accounted for the fudge factor in their advertising. With
Topline claiming 242 cfm at .400 I though in reality that might be
in the 220 range. I would have been happy with 215 -220 combined with their high end flow..... but 203 cfm is like stock
30 year old iron type of flow!!
I don't know where to go from here, guess I'll call and talk it out
with Shaver(haven't anwsered email yet). The heads are put
together well with 1.4" dia springs, undercut swirl polished
valves, nice casting, etc.... I known with 1.6 ratio rockers that
would put my lift at .500 in which would start to access some
of that higher flow .......?

jimmy_mac

I e-mailed pro-topline inquiring about the flow numbers from that test a few years ago on the 220 heads that show flow numbers way lower than they advertise. The response I got was GHP used the wrong type of valve for the test. I found that hard to explain as much as 30 cfm of flow or more.

A lot of head manufatuers may overate their flow, it's just pro-topline seams to really exagerate excessively. But if I had already bought some, I would probably just get the grinder out and shape the radius some and get rid of any sharp spots below the seat and run em.

F-BIRD'88

The valve job angles and widths make a big difference.
So does the shape of the valve.

Protopline specifys and certain valve contour and valve job to get the flow figures they advertize.
If your heads are something different, don't expect
the same flow.

Depending on the supplier/ wholesaler who did the preperation machining and valve job on an assembled set of heads
the flow figures willl vary a little.

Don't take a auto magazine flow test as the gospel
get your own heads properly flowed.

The inlet radius, test temperature/ barametric pressure and exhaust test pipe make a big difference too.
Just like dynos, no two flow benches read the same.

jamesbob02

Side Note: You don't have to press enter at the end of the line in typing a post unless you want to. I noticed a lot of you posting narrow replies with long bodies - just wondering if you knew.

formularpm

Well said.

84305HO

Talked to Bob at Shaver and it was the typical hand waving about
different testing conditions, but he was very nice and offered to
accept a return. His bottom line was, install the heads and you
will be pleased with the performance gain over the Worlds.

rjmcgee

Why don't you go get your heads flowed tested? Should answer all of your questions.

jamesbob02

Probably because it costs money, and not all of us are made of it.

84305HO

What is the typical cost of a 'flow job' ?

jamesbob02

Depends on which corner you're at.

J/K I have no idea, but my guess would be at least 50 bucks.

mrr23

i paid $35 per cylinder. only did one cylinder of course.

84305HO

Ended up sending them back. They were very nice and had no
problem with a refund.

rx7speed

it's not always a lie just how they put things

like I could prolly sell you a 700cfm head and not be lying to you


now comes the kicker it does flow 700cfm at .800
from .0-.550 though it never goes above 250cfm

am I lying to you?
no
not even overexaggerating

I'm telling you the truth just not telling you what .xxx range the 700cfm comes in or the rest of the flow curve





or how about a head that flows 260cfm at .400"

I'm telling you the truth here also


the head does flow 260cfm

only problem is it isn't at 28" of water
it is at 40" of water


now the truth is still there it still does flow that 260cfm
but when compared to a head that flows 240cfm at 28" I'm sure that head would be flowing a lot better then this head

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Nope you would be lying.
Dart race heads barely go over 400 cfm @.900 lift.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Now this is very true.

1bdbrd

iTrader: (1)

correct me if im wrong but couldnt it be the flow bench they were tested on? sure i can build you a race car to make 900 hp at the ground on MY dyno, but every shop is different. i would think the same should hold true for flow benchs also.

rx7speed

lets do the test at 60" water

see what happens at that point


but regardless the numbers were just thrown out there


and companies have tried selling heads by advertising flow rating at a lift that is well above what you would run into on a street cam

but if you don't understand the example without it being within reason (ie not just throwing numbers out there)


how about a set of heads that are advertised at 350cfm

sounds great untill you really start looking into things or have them taken to a flow bench

350cfm comes at .800" lift
and from .0-.550 you hardly go above 200cfm

doesn't sound like such a good head now does it?

Morley

A flow bench is "supposed" to be a constant from one to another (so should dynos)
For the price of those heads you could almost get a set of TrickFlows from Summit.

84305HO

You guys are right on the money. These heads ARE great flowing,
but at a lift of .500 and above. So if they stretch the truth a little
they can get a few more sales (other than hardcore racers) and
always fall back on the fact that the heads flow good at higher
lifts.