KC10Chief

I have an 88 GTA with a 350 TPI engine. This spring I was planning on rebuilding my engine. Now, I am thinking about turning it into a 383 stroker. What kind of costs would you estimate for all the machine work, the parts from Summit, etc if I did most of it myself? I was talking to my dad about this and he said that since he works for GM, he could get me a big discount on engines. He says I could probably get a brand spankin new LS1 for around $3800! How would this cost compare to turning my current engine into a 383? I'd imagine that the LS1 would be quite a bit more after all the extra stuff I had to buy to get it to fit. Also, can anybody recommend a good top end rebuild kit seller? Thanks for any info! Matt

scottland

GM list price on the LS1 crate engine is $5,785 and if you can get it for $3,800 thats a $2,000 discount or 35% discount.

i would look at one of GM's other crate engines.

i mean you can get their HT383 motor for $2400!!!!($3681 list)

thats 325hp and 415lb trq.

add a hotter cam and 1.6 full roller rockers, and i would almost guarentee 400hp.

or

buy a the Fast burn 385 for $2650!!!!!! then add a GM LT4 Hot cam ($109)
and you have a proven 430hp and 430lb tq.

the LS1 is a good option. its just that retro-fitting it involves quite a bit of work, and im not so sure that your transmission will work with the LS1.

personally i would stick with a GEN I small block.

you could rebuild your engine, but if you dad works for GM, and you get those kind of discounts, i wouldn't see any reason to re-build it. it seems cheaper to get everything straight form the horses mouth in your case.

pauldaniel26

You would also need a different tranny for the LS1, correct? But, if you can get an LS1 wiring and computer for 3800$ thats still a GREAT price, just remember the cost of all the accesories, it adds up. I would have to agree that I would also stay with a good ole SBC.

KC10Chief

Could I use those fast burn motors with my TPI setup? Also, if I had a 430hp motor, I'd probably have to beef up the rear end right? I like the looks of the TPI in my car. There sure are a lot of choices! Matt

80smetalfan

whether to go 'good ole SBC' or LS1 depends entirely on the depth of your pockets. quite frankly, unless you FOR SURE want a brand new LS1, you can better (as low as $2500 for engine, accesories, computer) than that looking on eBay, provided you check up on the seller to make sure you don't get ripped off. you can run your stock tranny with the LS1, but it's not really worth it in the long run IMO. it will be expensive to do (hook up to the tranny), especially if you're not doing any of the work yourself. probably (when you include parts and labor) as expensive as getting an LS1 compatible tranny off eBay. also, especially if you have a 700R4, the LS1 will tear that thing up, especially if you do much work to improve the stock 350 HP that the LS1 puts out. basically, it all depends on what you want from the car, and how much priority this car takes (daily driver, project, etc.). anyone who tells you that a 'good ole SBC' has any sort of potential for gas mileage and power like an LS1 does is full of . but the downside is how much it will cost to set it up, plus the fact the LS1 parts are insanely expensive compared to your 'good ole SBC' parts. but apparently you have good connections, so this may not be an issue.
i guess if you want to turn your car into a 'kill all comers' death-dealer that also gets 30+ MPG, AND you have the cash, go for the LS1, definitely. but if you're just looking for a fairly practical hop-up to your current setup that's gonna give ya the best bang for your buck, definitely go with an older SBC.

scottland

i'm going to need some justification on this one. because it sounds like it came straight out of your ***.

whats so special about the LS1 that a GEN1 SBC can't compete with?

is the engine code "LS1" magic? is there some mystique i'm not seeing?

the LS1 is still a 16 valve pushrod V8 engine same as a SBC.

it has good flowing aluminum cylinder heads same as can be obtain for a SBC (i.e. trickflow, AFR, pro topline)

it has a roller camshaft, oh wait, GEN1's can have those too.

it has fuel injection (hrm... wonder if GEN1's have that)

it has an aluminum block, and it's only big benefit is weight.

it has a good ignition system, which you can get for a SBC. (even coil over plug just like the LS1 if you want.)

what differences can you think of, other than 18* heads ( i believe) (which you can get for SBC i.e. trickflow)
evenly spaced intake and exhaust ports.
and a composite intake.

so lets take a 350 for example.
with a nice mild near LS1 factory spec roller cam
pro topline 200cc heads
a miniram or LT1 intake,
a good ignition system (i.e. multple spark ignition)
and a proper tune.

and i bet you could EASILY match the LS1 in both power and mileage numbers.

the LS1 is an excelent factory motor, but its engineering is based off a lot of the things that have been around in the aftermarket for years and years.

theres no magical potion thats added to LS1 cylinder head castings.
no mysterical unexplainable reasons why it makes the power it does. its just good engineering. and that SAME engineering can be found in the GEN1 SBC aftermaket.

don't spend misinformation, because all the people that say "a GEN1 SBC can't even hold a candle to the LS1"

are just full of sh**

GASGZLR

Nicely Put scottland! Gen 1 all the way:hail: Not worth the hassle to swap the LS1. I can take LS1's with minor mods easy and I am only a 350 and carb, Imagine if I had the Fuel injection magic they do, and imagine if my heads were aluminum, and if I was a 383... well you get the idea.

80smetalfan

sorry to revive this thread guys, but that last post was ridiculous. the ls1 blocks and gen I blocks are entirely different, the bore and strokes are different than genI's are (stroked more, bored less), the cooling is entirely different, and the whole aluminum block thing makes more than a slight difference. to point out how gen I's are inferior we'll break it down by different sections of the engine:

bottom end: gen I's weigh MUCH more than ls1's, as you figured out. given that every 100lbs lost equals about 1/10th in the 1/4 mile, that's a huge wieght advantage, not to mention gas mileage and a HUGE improvement in handling (don't believe me on this, go talk to the v6 guys about how much better their cars handle), and that's not even considering any other section of the engine, just the bottom end.

heads: once again, just cause you can get aluminum heads for ye olde SBC, don't mean they're bonafide LS1 carbon copies. once again, you've obviously never opened up an LS1, a whole different beast. LS1 heads don't work the same as L89 vette heads, hence why they're not interchangeable, and why they put LS1 heads on corvettes today and why they put L89's on corvettes 20 years ago. they (LS1's) are better flowing and more efficient than any GMPP heads for GEN 1, and most aftermarket. you can port the crap outta aftermarket or GMPP to get them to flow as well, but then you can kiss your MPG goodbye, and you lose the argument, so once again, YES, an LS1 is better than a Gen I SBC.

injection: i love your comment "it has fuel injection" as if FI is a one-size-fits-all type of technology. yeah, you can throw that old mechanical RAM JET on your Gen I, or perhaps get some smog-reg era FI (CFI, TBI, TPI, MPFI) for it with a little wiring, and after opening it up with some boring and what-not, it will flow like SFI, but once again, MPG goes BYE-BYE. SFI is so much better than any FI made for the Gen I platform, it's laughable. yeah, the 1980 Vette Stingray had a good old SBC with a good old 350 and crossfire "fuel injection" (!), and it made an incredible 220 HP. now, before you jump me without reading all of my post, yes, i realize that the 1980 vette had so many restrictions and that the crossfire was designed for economy, not power. but that's my point. FI for Gen I's just isn't good compared to SFI, when economy is considered. you either choose performance or mileage when dealing with old FI. i know this firsthand.

i know your point is that LS1 is built on engineering which can be had for Gen I SBC. but my point is why waste money on all the components (heads, cam, intake/FI, ignition) you need to bring the Gen I 350 to the same level of a LS1 in performance and efficiency (350 HP, 350 LB-ft, 30 MPG), when the LS1 can be had as low as $2000 on ebay, and have those numbers with no mods? heck there are even companies that will even do the whole swap for $6000! why not just accept the fact that for the first time in like 30 years, the engines rolling off the assembly line are better in about every way than the muscle-car era engines?
i say way to go GM. now we can argue with the ricers about having power and MPG. now we can say that the fastest production chevy gets better mileage than the fastest production honda! and puts out almost twice as much power doing so.

and i want the picture and specs on the supposed Gen I 350 that exists somewhere according to you boys that gets 30 MPG and still puts out 350 HP and torque. good luck with that.

and i'm gonna pull out the again for GASGZLR on his claim. tell me the model of ONE LS1-equipped car that you've EVER beaten. just one. cause i won't even touch that pile with toilet paper, the one that claims with "minor mods" your 350 and carb can take a LS1. my guess is not only have you never raced one, you probably don't even know what camaros/firebirds/vettes they even went into. that or your "minor" mods are accompanied by a serious carb, or a car that weighs about 1500 lbs.

you can keep ripping the guys who consider ls1/ls6's better, and you can keep building your 350's and 383's and 406's, and losing to LS1/6 owners who have done one fourth the mods to their motors, and who get their money back on the swap in what they save at the pump. and then when you're jealous about it, you can go bad mouth LS1's on message boards, and create some sort of illusion that you can beat new technology with archaic technology and save money doing it. thank *** you boys aren't in the computer hardware business. you'd be trying to build pentium 4 equivalent systems with 486's.


*EDIT* didn't notice your setup gaszlr, just saw your post. those aren't really "minor" mods for a streetable car. and you wouldn't take any LS1 that had that much money in it on aftermarket stuff. 30 mpg isn't realistic with that motor even with FI, unless you tuned it to get it, and then you lose your performance.

joshwilson3

.

Ray87Z

You seem to have missed his point nearly entirely, it was not that you could buy LS1 heads for a GEN 1 but that you can easily buy aftermarket aluminum heads that will flow as well and make as much power as LS1 heads. LS1 heads are absolutely stellar for a factory head flow wise no argument there, but they're not untouchable...

Old mechanical fuel injection crap has no bearing on this at all. You can slap a DFI system from any number of aftermarket tuners on a GEN 1 and have all the tunability you can dream of and do the work yourself with a laptop computer, having full control over everything. And you can flow as much as anything else out there... As far as I know you're pretty limited for the home tuner with your LS1 other than the very basic tuning stuff.

As for your gas mileage stuff, the LS1 doesn't get that great of mileage in the real world on average. The 6spd equiped cars do fairly well mainly due to their extreme highway overdrive of the 6spd (which a GEN 1 can obviously be strapped with), NOT a whole lot that the LS1 is doing itself. The auto equiped LS1s don't get particularly great mileage. Heck the new auto GTOs with the LS1 suffer from the "Gas Guzzler" tax and barely break 20 mpg highway mileage. Not so impressive... There is nothing on an LS1 you can't do on a GEN 1 for a similar/lesser price, and have something you yourself can work on and tune easily. To shell out $2-3k for a used engine of unknown condition is pretty steep to me, if you figure in a new engine at nearly $6k for a measly 350hp (rated 320...) that just isn't all that stellar to me. Yeah you get the whole injection setup so it's not like it's a bad deal but that's pretty steep if you can make do with other stuff IMO...


I have a budget built lousy carbed 350 for crying out loud, and have pulled on a few stock LS1s, and equiped with the 700r4 and 3.42 rear gears I pull around 20-23ish mpg on the highway, as good/better than the brand spanking new auto equiped GTOs with the 350hp LS1... Slap a 6spd in here and I would be rivalling the 6spd equiped LS1 car's highway mpg. Around town they're likely to be better, and I'm sure in the winter an LS1 starts up alot better, but then again I have a low buck setup all the way around. There is no way you're going to sell me that someone with a remotely decent fuel injection setup can't do better than me, and thus better than most LS1s...

How much money to buy a LS1 and get it to match a 500 hp 383 kit that any Joe can buy and run in his thirdgen? You doing all the work to the LS1 yourself?


The LS1 is a great factory motor, excellent power for a stock engine, no doubt about it. But it is simply just not untouchable for any decently setup standard SBC, end of story. I certainly wouldn't knock anyone who wants to retrofit a LS1 into older stuff, it's a cool hightech setup to be running. But the rest of this talk is BS...

1991tealRSt-topGuy

you read too many magazines

stevedave454

lets stop the arguing and get back to the original topic... an LS1 is a great engine but when you factor in the cost of EVERY accessory, plus wiring, and ecm, etc the swap can be VERY expensive, also the tranny has a different bolt pattern so you need a LS1 tranny, as for modifying yours to make it fit sounds like a lot more money and work than its worth, and for that reason only i'd say go with a gen 1 sbc, the fastburn 385 is a great motor, and on another note my 93 LT1 got around 28 mpg hwy (i had 6sp with 3.23 gears) so you can get good gas mileage out of a gen 1, and EVERYONE knows you can get plenty of power out of them... BUT several companies are offering heads and cam packages for the LS1 (include LS6 intake, and long tube headers, with ecm reprogramming, and other minor bolt ons) that are putting it at 450 RWHP, and they can still take a 100 shot of nitrous on top of that without any problems... i have a specific article on this exact combo in GMHTP car ran 10.82 on a stock LS1 short block!! i'd like to see a gen 1 with heads, cam, and 100 shot nitrous running 10's... im not raggin on the gen 1's like i said i'd recomend a gen 1, but for price issues only, for the price of an LS1 conversion (stock motor) you could probably get a gen 1 into or close to 10's

stevedave454

i realize an LT1 is a gen 2 sbc, but you get the point... internals are the same as a gen 1, and you can make the intake (and heads for that matter) fit your gen 1 fairly easily

joshwilson3

.

therckid

you'll need an independent controller, one like this one here,
http://www.thirdgenresource.com/inc/...l?v=1&pid=1229

joshwilson3

.

therckid

any tranny that can be bolted to a small block chevy will fit these cars. You might need to modify the crossmember but they will definately fit.


shane

80smetalfan

"IN THE REAL WORLD"
last time i checked, "IN THE REAL WORLD" the fact that the automatic-equipped vettes still get 26 MPG doesn't much support the argument that "The 6spd equiped cars do fairly well mainly due to their extreme highway overdrive of the 6spd (which a GEN 1 can obviously be strapped with)". and reading stevedave's post, he said with a 6spd. LT-1, he got 28 MPG. considering that the LT-1's were rated for 27 MPG out of the factory, that's a whopping MPG gain of 1. as he said, LS1 potential blows away that of Gen 1's. the argument is about potential, not price. price-wise, i supported NOT getting an LS1.
i even said to go with a Gen 1, because of price, in my first post.

to qoute:
"i guess if you want to turn your car into a 'kill all comers' death-dealer that also gets 30+ MPG, AND you have the cash, go for the LS1, definitely. but if you're just looking for a fairly practical hop-up to your current setup that's gonna give ya the best bang for your buck, definitely go with an older SBC. "

i guess i should learn that in order for some of the know-it-all dumba$$es to actually read what i say, i should just post 5 times in advance, eh?

realize that just because you match HP with an LS1, doesn't mean you'll "pull with him". a "measly 350 HP" isn't so measly when you consider it's coming from an engine that weighs less than a 283. there's a LOT more to a race than just HP.

ray87z, if you were as much of a fountain of knowledge about the LS1 and GTO as you think you are, perhaps you would of realized that the engine going into the GTO is an LS2 (to put into a formula, LS1 =\= LS2, despite the understandable confusion, they ACTUALLY are two different engines!). the LS2, if you know anything about it, is using an entirely new setup with 3 valves per cylinder (2 intake, 1 exhaust), and still using the pushrod design with a single cam (instead of going DOHC), which would explain the 20 MPG.

to answer you, joshwilson3, SFI is Sequential Fuel Injection. It's been widely used since the the intro of 4th gen camaros and is responsible for most of why the LT1 that went into those camaros got 27 MPG. as was pointed by one of the guys who got offended by my insulting of their dear old Gen 1, aftermarket kits for SFI are available for Gen 1.

as far as what FI to use, it depends entirely on what you want to do with the car, and how much you're willing to tune it.
TBI really isn't that bad. after you open up the TBI a little, it really breathes well. of the stock FI's that came with 3rd gen's it's by far the easiest to work with. with an open element and some throttle body mods, it will breath great as high as you want to rev it. and it's PROM parameters are easier to understand than those of the TPI. the downside to TBI is that it really isn't much of a fuel injection at all (doesn't do much more than a carb.), and that since it is a 'wet' system, it will get worse MPG by principle than an identical setup with TPI. CFI (a.k.a. CrossFire) is pretty much the same thing as TBI (it actually came before TBI), the injectors are set up a bit differently.
TPI is a bit more advanced, but in it's stock form isn't good at all for a street/race setup. it makes lots of low RPM torque and gets pretty decent MPG when tuned properly. however, it doesn't breath at all above 4500 RPMs in it's stock form, and isn't much fun to tune at all when compared to TBI.
I put TPI on my setup because TBI doesn't really do much for my setup. I don't have much of a high revving setup, and i'd rather have good low end torque and better city MPG. But my setup at the current time is more for fun daily driving than living at the drag strip.
But obviously, it's your call. If you're building, I wouldn't use the stock form of any of the smog-era FI's.

therckid

yah guys look what i found about the LS2,
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-31713.html

Black 91 Z28

FYI the GTO has a LS1 engine not a LS2. The LS2 is due out in the C6.

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/specs.jsp...&pagename=home

That page also shows that the GTO with the T56 gets 29 mpg and the one with the auto gets 21.

zerotosixtyV8

interesting archeture, looks like they are borrowing some parts from the XV8 twin cam pushrod motor they use in Opel. as for the SBC vs. LS1 debate, the LS1 is a far superior motor, just face it and except it. you can pickup a complete LS1 and computer for $2500-3000 from any salvage yard or ebay auction. you can put another $1000-2000 into the motor and have a 500 HP LS1 and is far better for a daily driver than any 383 SBC and most likely a lot faster. they have the best flowing heads around for any small block (C5R castings flowing upwards of 450 cfm with mild port work), they are lighter, run cooler, have an intake manifold that has very little to improve upon, they have a more efficient computer and ignition system which is all cheaper than retrofitting those things on a Gen I motor, and as a result, they can make huge streetable HP with excellent fuel economy. this doesn't come from a magazine, this comes from people who have them, I am sure a few of you have friends with heavily modified LS1s, they are destroying big block race cars in 3500 lb 4th gens with 346 cubic inches, and all the daily driveability and fuel economy of a modern sports coupe when they are just tooling around town or driving to work. they are expensive yes, but what they can do is no mystery to anyone who is knowledgeable about f-bodies, and those who don't believe these facts need to get with the times or shut up and leave their ignorance to themselves.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

sooooooooooooooo much misinformation in this thread it is sickening

zerotosixtyV8

um right, cause you've got an LS1 or worked with them...

Ray87Z

26mpg is not "30+" and is not unheard of for any fuel injected engine. I'm not sure what exactly your point of the LT1 getting a whopping 1 mpg increase over it's factory rating of 27 was supposed to be. Seems like you're trying to imply he added the 6spd to the LT1 and got that mileage increase. That 27mpg rating was with the 6spd I do believe, similarly to the LS1 cars the auto equiped LT1 cars' mpg rating was down around 24-25 unless I'm mistaken... No it's not a 100% increase to get a 6spd but the increase is significant... Regardless as you can see the GTO (which does have an LS1 thankyou) gets quite a dramatic mileage increase when strapped with the 6spd vs the auto... I believe the GTO is also by far the best example for the mpg/tranny comparison due to both the auto and 6spd GTOs getting the same rear end gear ratio. On the LT1/LS1 Fbodies (and in Vettes too I believe, not sure) you got more mpg friendly gears with the autos, so with equal gearing the 6spd would rate even better mpg wise...

Open mouth, insert foot.... LOL Thank you for proving you know nothing about the LS1s or what they're in. (not that knowing all the model details has much bearing on this...) The new GTO currently still has a standard LS1, and so far the LS2 that is coming out in the C6 still has 2 valves per cylinder from what I've read. The 3 valves per cylinder has yet to be comfirmed/make an appearance unless I'm misunderstanding it (never claimed to be a "fountain of knowledge", and never said jack about the LS2)... I was originally under the belief the C6's LS2 was supposed to have 3 valve heads already, but have been told otherwise on our own future vehicle discussion board. Who knows, maybe it does... Anyway, as for the rest check up on it before you go around insulting "fountains of knowledge" that happen to be right...

1991tealRSt-topGuy

guilty conscience?

i wasnt refering to your post

i was refering to many of the posts in this thread


please, look and understand next time before opening your mouth

it is much appreciated

thanx

btw, if you need to know what spewing bull**** i was complaining about please see the post above this where Ray plainly and openly schools Mr. HairMetal

your dead right about the LS1 being a great engine, btw and all you stated about the LS1 is correct

80smetalfan

" I was originally under the belief the C6's LS2 was supposed to have 3 valve heads already, but have been told otherwise on our own future vehicle discussion board. Who knows, maybe it does... Anyway, as for the rest check up on it before you go around insulting "fountains of knowledge" that happen to be right..."

ya okay buddy. i didn't even mention the fact that you claimed that the tuning options on an LS1 were limited (ridiculous BS), you still can't defend the argument of your low $$$ 350 "pulling" on LS1's. perhaps you shouldn't be bragging about how your car and it's awesome engine can take cars you've never even raced. i was wrong on LS2. my bad. one error constitutes total BS apparently.

"btw, if you need to know what spewing bull**** i was complaining about please see the post above this where Ray plainly and openly schools Mr. HairMetal "

mr hairmetal, eh? well, mr satanist, i actually am right about the LS1 being a far better engine, an obvious fact you and ray wouldn't concede to until stevedave and zerotosixty backed me up. nobody openly schooled me. as i mentioned earlier, so far the only thing i've been wrong about is what car the LS2 goes into. if you knew so much about how i was "B.S."-ing, why didn't you just jump into the argument and prove it? oh i see the response already: "Durr.......because you already proved it yourself.....durrr......LOL!". not really. the understanding has now been reached on this thread that i was correct about the LS1 having more potential by far than an older SBC, which was the only thing people got mad about in the first place. i was right. ray87 was wrong (though in his mind, he's still blowing the doors off those LS1's with his incredible 350 setup :lala: ). you sat and attached yourself to ray's argument and tried to point and laugh as if you had any real point in the argument besides the irrelevant "You read too many magazines."
i won.

"The LS1 is a great factory motor, excellent power for a stock engine, no doubt about it. But it is simply just not untouchable for any decently setup standard SBC, end of story. "

keep believing buddy. i can't change a stubborn mind.

really, the only reason that i even argued on this thread is because any time the LS1/6 is mentioned on this board, people think building a 'decent' 383 or 406 will just annhilate it, and that there's no point to going with one. the thread starter had his question answered wayyy back at the top. but i was as ignorant as a newbie for claiming the LS1 had more potential than an older SBC. and then explaining why. but i don't know why i'm angry, seeing that the people who called me an idiot are someone who had no argument and someone who thinks their Gen I 350 runs with LS1's.

80smetalfan

sorry zerotosixty, hate to drag you into association with my hated posts, but your qoute summarizes most of my point on the LS1 vs. old SBC argument.

"I am sure a few of you have friends with heavily modified LS1s, they are destroying big block race cars in 3500 lb 4th gens with 346 cubic inches, and all the daily driveability and fuel economy of a modern sports coupe when they are just tooling around town or driving to work. they are expensive yes, but what they can do is no mystery to anyone who is knowledgeable about f-bodies, and those who don't believe these facts need to get with the times or shut up and leave their ignorance to themselves."

Ray87Z

I said as far as I know you're pretty limited in options for the home tuner other than basic stuff such as a hypertech tuner or something. IE you the owner can't do as much serious tuning in your garage yourself. And maybe there is stuff I don't know about, not being a heavy LS1 modder myself... I don't believe there is anything as easy or common place as the tuning stuff you can do with a laptop on the aftermarket DFI systems or with some of the stuff guys on this board are doing with the stock computer prom editing/burning. If there is so be it, the point is the GEN 1 has tuning options oh-plenty...



About the other stuff, if it is your contention that there is no way a 350 with Vortec heads, good cam, good intake, headers, good gearing etc like my setup can pull on a stock LS1 then I'm not going to argue with you, it's a waste of time. There are plenty of examples of people here and elsewhere with very similar Vortec 350 setups getting quite a bit more power than the 340-350hp most stock LS1s are making. That is saying nothing of other setups that aren't quite as budget minded...

Just for the record my initial post made it quite clear the LS1 was a great setup, and was a great engine to swap in if you want to blow the coin. But my main point was you can build a plenty-streetable 350/383 that will outpower a stock/mild LS1 for cheaper. The only way you can even come close in the price is by buying a used LS1. Shelling out that kind of money for something used and of relatively unknown condition doesn't sit right with me... Anyway, if you don't agree then so be it, we'll have to agree to disagree... I never said the LS1 was a piece of crap or had no potential.

80smetalfan

as far as tuning options, the tuning for LS1's is different because LS1's use FLASH ROM instead of EPROM (kind of funny thinking about it, cause FLASH is also referred to as EEPROM, so in terminology, they're not that different). As far as Laptop-type setups, this changes the game slightly because you don't have to burn chips, you just need a cable and software. it's not as common as older SBC tuning because the stock tuning is a lot better, and the only common mod that absolutely requires tuning would be going to a LS6 intake or other aftermarket intake (not a lot at the moment, not a lot of problems with the stock one). but if you wanted to, you can adjust about everything on an LS1 that you can on a Gen I, and if you have an LS1 tranny hooked up to it, even more than a Gen I. i hate to bring the whole "i said, you said" thing back, but i never claimed that Gen 1's couldn't be tuned. I own a older SBC, i've had to do buy a DIY kit for about $300 to do extensive tuning when i swapped the zz4 heads and cam in, and to help with the EGR delete since zz4's don't have EGR. also took off the top speed limiter .
my original contention, again was that the LS1 has more potential than Gen I. we're arguing the same point about the price of a Gen I setup being better. you have to buy pretty much fabricated everything (engine mounts, crossmember, etc.) to even get an LS1 to even fit a 3rd gen.
and as far as a vortec not being able to touch a LS1, i'm not talking about on the dyno. i like vortec setups quite a bit, i probably would of swapped some on my 305, except they're iron (and i wanted to shed weight) and they require some more extensive mods than do the zz4 to fit a 305.
all i was saying is that going the conventional route of more cubes and everything cast iron makes you heavier, by a quite a bit, than an aluminum block, and aluminum blocks don't have to worry about overheating as much as a bigger SBC or BBC. and weight means speed once the engine gets mounted. so the best vortec setup that's still as streetable as an LS1 still has a big disadvantage, as the block is iron and the heads are iron too. this assumption is based on if both the cars are 3rd gens, as 4th gens weigh like 200 lbs more than the average 3rd gen, if not more. the ls1 is also gonna rev quicker because the drivetrain hardware being mostly aluminum, unless you've got an aluminum or carbon fiber flexplate/flywheel obviously. in other words, the most HP doesn't always win. mainly when the ls1 car isn't totally stock.

and as far as the eBay thing, that's understandable. i buy tons of things off ebay, but my sister in law is a lawyer so i don't really worry about getting screwed over. that and i check up on things like auctions asking for wire-transfer only to sweden or russia . but i agree that buying a used LS1 might be a bad idea if you don't have ways of counter-acting frauds.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

thats not misinformation

therckid

people who say SATANIST are the DEVEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

zerotosixtyV8

ok, I retract my insult towards you and alls good. yes there is a lot of nonsense here, but 80smetalfan is right. the LS1 is better in every aspect to the Gen I motor and Gen II motor, and as time progresses it'll get cheaper and newer, more efficient and more powerful engines will be made and the Gen I and Gen II motors will be on par with the old flatheads. There are stock bottom end LS1s running 9s, even more stock displacment LS1s running 9s, all streetable and getting decent fuel economy. if you WANT to go fast, you are going to be spending money anyways. now if you wanted to go fast and stay streetable you have two options in a late model, a big inch small block with expensive fuel injection, or a modified LS1. costs are comparable when you get into it, and the LS1 is still more efficient and will get better economy simply cause you can make more power with it with smaller cubes. sorry but if your 350 is making more power than an LS1 it's either a stock LS1, or isn't streetable, or doesn't have anywhere near the efficiency of the LS1 or what not. it's an inferior motor, get over it

25THRSS

wow, this thread is one of the dumbest I have read in a long, long time here. The amount of is amazing.

zerotosixtyV8

yeah I guess those guys doing all the things they are doing on LS1tech.com are all full of ****
Someone as ignorant and stupid as you shouldn't have ever been allowed to be a moderator.
and this is directed at you from this post and another. lol, go ahead and think that a 406 SBC is going to beat up on a heavily modified LS1 or a 383 for that matter LAF, you'll be losing a lot of money on those races. btw, I am reporting your actions

scottland

Too funny.

25th actually owns a LS1 car. Doesn't it put down something like 430rwhp?

zero, you might want to think before you open your mouth.

why this thread was brought back from the dead, i will never know. but at this point it is FUBAR, and im not even going to try and salvage an argument.

the amount of stupidity is amazing.

Ray87Z

Not flaming but you're exaggerating more than a little, 9 sec true streetable 346s are not the norm (without liberal application of NO2 or extreme weight reduction), heck alot of the more high dollar strokers aren't running 9s in street trim and are somewhat on the roudy side of streetable (not to mention expensive as hell). I would be interested in seeing city/highway mpg numbers on these cars at this level, never seen any...

Barring unknown mileage there is nothing being done with 9-10 second LS1s that hasn't/isn't being done with properly setup high dollar 383/406/427 small block GEN 1s...

{EDIT} Ah, I didn't realize there was a previous flame fest thread about this, wondered where all of the animosity was coming from...

wingnut

[edit]
After reading a similar (now locked) thread involving the same posters, I have decided not to get involved in this debate.
[/edit]

25THRSS

exactly. If anyone here has torn down an LS1 before, the design concept isn't all that much different than a gen 1. There are a few improvements, but nothing at all that would make a built 346 ci motor be able to whoop a built 400+ cube motor. BTW, in that other thread you were referring to, my heads were ported by THE BEST head porter in the country. If you read up on LS1.com so much you will know who I am talking about. I could prolly pull a few more cfm, but I had them matched to a STREETABLE cam, which is also VERY popular. I guess if I am a f up, then all those major companies products I used are f ups too and don;t know what they are doing.

zerotosixtyV8

shut the hell up scotland, you are an idiot. If 25th is putting down 430 RWHP he should be running 10s and fully aware of what his LS1 can do. But he's an idiot and, he wants to bring his bucket (or any big inch SBC or BBC) down to the Saint Louis I've got some money races he can run against stock bottom end LS1s that he says can't happen. you can come too. bring any big block small block, whatever, I don't care you will ****ing lose and I'll make some nice money off it, can pay for my 434 SBC. Yes, I am building a 434 stroker, mostly cause I've already invested a good amount of money in my heads and intake and can throw them on. Had I had a bigger budget and more time, an LS1 would be in my car. Scotland you are the dumbest, most worthless piece of **** on this board so don't even talk about "thinking" you never have in your life. you make stupid comments and pretend to know what you are talking about even though you don't. I'm done wasting my time on the likes of you, an LS1 is a superior motor to any Gen I motor, no matter what you ******* want to "believe". again, my offer stands, bring your **** to St. Louis, race my friends for money if you think you've got enough. They are all street driven and inspected and licensed cars too, they get around 26 MPG. race me if you want to, I'll kick your *** proper with a built, streetable 350.

25th you git, bring your trash down to Saint Louis if you want to prove me wrong so badly. I'm looking make some money anyways

25THRSS

I don't have anything to prove. My point was simply that the LS1 is not as superior to the gen 1 block as you would like to believe. I am sure there are plenty of people out there that could whoop my ***, but I honestly don't care and I am certainly not going to drive all the way to St. Louis to prove anything to you. It's pretty obvious you have never stuck your head under the hood of any car, not to mention turn a nut or bolt on an ls1 or a gen 1. Opinions are fine, but there is no need for your childness on here. All I ask is you use a little common sense. The LS1 is no way as superior as some people would like to believe. You asked for facts in the other thread and I presented them to you, and you still try to argue. It's hard to believe someone with an actual LS1 with many mods will not come out and say how much superior their engine is to any other isnt it?

1983Fbody

There is something to say for having an LS1 under the hood, its prolly not gonna get you laid though. I'm gonna say go with the old style motor, if you are seeking performance per-dollar. It really depends on what you want, there are alot cheaper ways to lighten the frontend of the car other than getting an alumminum block. LS1 add ons cost more, not to mention the initial cost of installing it into your 3rdgen.

doc

I have both engines discussed above. The LS1 engine is far superior to the 3rd gen type SBC. My LS1 engine generated 289RWHP and got 27 MPG on the highway going 75mph.

The LS1 engine is an all aluminum engine with special designed head ports and the sequential EFI system is awesome.

With a head/cam/headers swap and some EFI tuning, the LS1 will put down over 400 HP at the drive wheels. Currently I'm at 400.3RWHP.

However, the LS1 parts are much more expensive.

I have done the same mods to both of my Camaros, the '87 has been on the dyno at a max 275RWHP. That is a heads/cam/intake/headers/tuning mods (and more).

25THRSS

Now this has gotten into intake discussions and so forth. It's all in the parts you use man. A tpi intake will restrict a built 350 very much. Slap a miniram on top of a stock bottom end L98 with a cam matched to some ported afr heads and you will kill LS1's. Both engines are push rod activated with 2 valve heads. Someone compared a gen 1 to a flathead engines earlier. This is absolutely assanine. The designs are completely different. When you say gen 1 block you are talking about the block, not any particular intake manifold that was put on over the years, not any certain cam, not any certain heads, and so forth. The only reason the LS1 produces so much power in stock form is they came from the factory with good parts. The stock cam's have .500 lift on them for crying out loud. The fact is if you put good parts in a gen 1 block you can make great hp just like an LS1, and saying that you can't is pure ignorance. For every LS1 someone brags about there have been 500 gen 1 blocks to beat it. Go to your local track and see how many people are running great times and making great power with "old" blocks. This entire arguement that an LS1 can do so many things that a gen 1 block can't is completely and utterly stupid. Same thing goes for the LT1. It's just a gen 1 block with reverse cooling and a crappy optispark that was only put there to fit under the cowl of a 4th gen. Otherwise they are basically the same.

therckid

I have to agree guys, I have to agree. This guy makes a point and make all you ignorant people look even more stupid. He said all that stuff not me so don’t get mad at me. Just think about it, to top fuel drag racers use LS1's? No!!!!!! They use old engines that came in old cars.

So BOOOOO YAAAAA

Shane



Update: just remembered they use big block engines not small....lol


Update: the LT1 and 1st generation are completely different. Well in their stock form. LT1s have cam driven water pumps, SBC's don’t. The distributor is Optispark but it’s in the front not back. They have different heads, the intake passages are evenly spaced apart. They are not much the same at all. Thanks you very much for listening to a noob prove you wrong. HAHA

scottland

its all fun and games until somebodies ego gets bruised

thats one thing about the internet, everyone can act big and bad behind their computer.

and mods, will someone lock this before it gets out of hand. Everyone has clearly, and in some cases fervently stated their opinions. I don't think there is too much more technical to gain from 4th grade recess.

joshwilson3

.

25THRSS

Update: just remembered they use big block engines not small....lol


Update: the LT1 and 1st generation are completely different. Well in their stock form. LT1s have cam driven water pumps, SBC's don’t. The distributor is Optispark but it’s in the front not back. They have different heads, the intake passages are evenly spaced apart. They are not much the same at all. Thanks you very much for listening to a noob prove you wrong. HAHA [/B][/QUOTE]

What uses big blocks? And like I said, LT1's have reverse cooling and a distrubutor that has to be driven by the cam because it wont fit underneath the cowl of a 4th gen on the top. The water pumps also have to be different because of the reverse cooling. It's a pretty bad design if you ask me, as I have already replaced it in my 94 z28. A standard distributor would be much better IMO. The heads are slightly different due to the reverse cooling, but they can easily be bolted on to a gen 1 block with a little machining. The cam can also be put in a gen 1 block as long as you grind down the dowel pin, as well can the intake if you drill a hole for the distributor. The LT1 350 has the same basic block, same bore/stroke, etc. It's not much different as I said before. It is a slightly updated sbc, but depending on how you look at it, you could say it has some design flaws. I myself feel that the gen 1 is better purely because of the craptyspark, but gm had to do what they had to do to get it to fit under the huge overlapping cowl of a 4th gen.

joshwilson3

.

therckid

What uses big blocks? And like I said, LT1's have reverse cooling and a distrubutor that has to be driven by the cam because it wont fit underneath the cowl of a 4th gen on the top. The water pumps also have to be different because of the reverse cooling. It's a pretty bad design if you ask me, as I have already replaced it in my 94 z28. A standard distributor would be much better IMO. The heads are slightly different due to the reverse cooling, but they can easily be bolted on to a gen 1 block with a little machining. The cam can also be put in a gen 1 block as long as you grind down the dowel pin, as well can the intake if you drill a hole for the distributor. The LT1 350 has the same basic block, same bore/stroke, etc. It's not much different as I said before. It is a slightly updated sbc, but depending on how you look at it, you could say it has some design flaws. I myself feel that the gen 1 is better purely because of the craptyspark, but gm had to do what they had to do to get it to fit under the huge overlapping cowl of a 4th gen. [/B][/QUOTE]



Top fuel drag racers use big blocks, because before I said, "you don’t see top fuel drag racers use LS1s," but an LS1 is a small block, they use big blocks.

They didn't put the optistark there to fit it user the hood of an F-body, these engines came out in the corvette first, there is a completely different reason and you’re over looking it.

thanks,
Shane

stevedave454

can we all agree that the LS1 is a great engine design, and is pretty powerfull for stock? whats better an LS1 or gen 1? in my "OPINION" the ls1 is... i mentioned my 93 LT1 Z28 above, here in denver (5200 ft) i ran a 14.8 basically stock with 126,000 mi (i unbolted my muffler at the cat, but the cat was still in place, and i CUT the lid off my stock airbox) and i had EXTREMELY bald street tires that i did a burn out with because i didn't know any better (1st time at the track, i was 16) then a few years later i ran my friends 01 SS, with loudmouth exhaust, no mods, with sort of bald tires it ran a 14.9, both were 6 speeds... before you say i dont know how to drive remember the elevation, most stock LS1's AND LT1's run around a 14.9-15.1 up here, in case your confused where im going with this.... they are both great motors, and can go fast, someone made a comment about it being laughable that a stock gen 1 can run with an LS1... well my gen2 (close enough to gen 1) actually ran faster.... also on the note of 346 running 9's, www.LS1motorsports.com did it with a 348 (slightly bored).... BUT they had a big turbo! they did how ever have a .600 lift cam, a big turbo, and a TH400 <-no overdrive! with 3.55's and they got 23 mpg's on the HWY with A/c on, and it was driven by the owner everyday!.. oh and he had a stock crank, but now owns a trans am, that was COMPLETELY stock, till he added his turbo kit, touched nothing internally, and he's making 631 HP 680 TQ, getting 34 mpg's, and he's trying to break the 120k mi motor, but it hasn't happened yet, this TA is now his daily driver.... so yes you can have very streetable LS1's in the 9's, can you do this with a gen1... YES, but from what i've read/seen it is much much harder and costs about the same, possibly more (forged pistons/rods and a turbo in your LS1 can get it that fast reliably, and can be cheaper than a completely built 406) also heads/cam/headers/ls6 intake with a 100 shot of nitrous has gotten TONS of LS1's into the 10's i havent seen that on a gen 1..... dont get me wrong i still love gen 1's and im building one for my S10, but i do think LS1's are superior, not AMAZINGLY better or anything, but still better