Hmmmm,

Okay, so you wanna build a 600 HP street car. Well, seems normal.....unless the fastest car you've ever driven/owned runs 14's or 15's.

Then, 600HP may not be such a good idea, and here are some reasons why....in no paticular order

A 6000 RPM launch in a 3100 lb. car on slicks running 440 HP results in a big rush........of blood to the back of your cranial cavity, not to mention a temporary dislocation of your brain within the fluid medium it rides in. Result?

A light-headed, "airy" feeling, almost like being drunk, loss of peripheral vision acuity, and, generally, some measure of disorientation. This lasts out to the 330 ft. light......and as HP goes up, so will G's, along with recovery time.....so, at 600HP, you may be out close to the 660' mark before your act is completely back together.

I'm not trying to scare anyone, I'm simply stating fact....and no, this happens to young bucks too, in case you're thinking it's an "old fart" thing.

Net Net...you need to have your act ALL the way together BEFORE you trip the second staged light, because while your brain is trying to lose conciousness in the next few seconds, you'll be required to leave your right foot planted, and in a stick-shift car, begin rowing through the gearbox......all the while remembering to drive the car straight with one hand on the steering wheel, correcting for drift if need be.

Is your level of driving skill up to the "automatic" level? So, for instance, when you powershift second and break traction with the cars' ahzz end heading for the guardrail, you've got enough "innate" ability to straighten the car out while under power without even thinking about it?

If you're not confident that you do, then maybe 600 HP is a tad rich for now. Some other considerations:

-Got brakes? You'll need 'em
-Got a rollbar? One pass faster than 11.99 at most tracks without one earns you an invitation to leave promptly.
-Can you steer a car with the rear wheels at 100+ MPH? ...because you may very well need to know how to do that.
-Got a fire extinguisher in the car?
-Got a 5-point safety harness and approved helmut?
-Got Z-rated front tires?

If you still feel brave, I'd suggest the following regimen:

-Make several 60' launches, with increasing throttle application - this will get you accustomed to "the pasting".
-Move on to 330' passes, noting the cars' feel, and what it is telling you.
-Make several half-track passes, reaching high gear, then slowly getting out of the gas.
-Make a 80-90% full pass, getting used to the high-speed characteristics of the car.....note wind speed and direction.

NEVER, NEVER, feel obligated to stay into a car for fear of embarrassment if you back off - anything faster than 11.99 is into an arena that less than 1% of drivers EVER step into. Anybody who would laugh at you for backing off is a weiner-supreme. Grumpy Jenkins won his first National title in ProStock with a 9.99 ET in a 327-powered Vega.

600HP ?
Good idea?
Sure, but I'll be playing Mr. Conservative every time out.....with the full knowledge that racing competitively requires patience, skill, knowledge, and a willingless to learn.

and at 600 HP.....well, you've got a responsibility to others as well as yourself. Just a little food for thought guys, sorry ....no sermon intended.

The point was that a progression from 300HP to 400HP to 500HP may be a good idea. With big nitrous kits, underhood superchargers, and large hair-dryers all now readily available, we are going to see more young (and old too, I'm sure) guys trying to go from mid-15's to mid 10's in one giant leap........and that probably would require more talent and nerve than most of us has. I would not even consider it.

BOR

 

I have considered the driving at high speed aspect, but I never really took into consideration what the g's would do to your body. Thanks for the info. I would love to experience this affect on myself, before I every come close to doing it to my car.

When I talk to guys my Dads age about car and suping them up, they say the same thing "Its all good adding the parts to make your car faster, but make sure you have the brakes to stop you!!" And then they go into the horror stories of their childhoods of how they had close calls due to brake fades and not have adequate stopping power. Basically if ya hop up that engine to a crazy HP rating, make sure you hop the brakes up to boot!!

 

give frank halley a call, i'm sure he'd let you drive one of his cars to see what sub 9s fee like.
BOR i guess you weren't done with this thread ,sorry to cut you off. i just hate to see tempers flare on here over silly $hit.

------------------
ICON Motorsports
1st & 3rd

 

Great advice! I had a buddy in 1979 that spent a year and a half building his charger...and promptly sold it after his first run...

 

Good point, of course the Air Force has figured out the high G situation pretty well. Look at the F-16 a tight turn at speed can produce upwards of 9 G's. They recline the chair to 60* from horizontal so like at an angle of 150*, they also wear G- suits that are designed to put pressure on the legs to prevent blood from draining from the brain.. Course this is designed to work in the third dimension, where we drive in 2 (i hope....)

------------------
--Steve S-- 84 Trans Am 305 (cough)LG4(cough), 5 speed, Flowmaster 80 series, otherwise an emissions restricted slow 150 hp(chilton rating) 240 torquer that needs RELEASE!!!!

P.S. Daily Driver

 

Hehehe . . . you think drag racing is bad on the body, try road racing! Negative Gs under braking (for about 30min at a time) can be a real killer (sometimes literally) I've almost redded-out a couple of times during hot days and I've had friends who nearly pased out and ran off the end or a straight . . . Not too fun . . .

Don

 

Makes one chuckle to hear guys say "How do I get to 600 HP?" when they're driving around in their stock 145 HP LG4 right now. The good news is, if they do make that 455 HP jump in one step, they probably have no clue how to put it to the pavement - makes good smoke, but doesn't go anywhere.

But, it's still scary to see a guy with a 200-HP NO2 shot putting their otherwise stock 350 TPI at 13 flat - no subframe connectors, no driveshaft loop, no roll protection, no helmet (probably should've pointed it out to the track and have them yank him - for everybody's good).

I've watched a guy here go from a 15-second 65 Impala to a 11.2-second 454 back-halved '83 Monte Carlo (subtracting about 1 second per season). Even at the end of this past season, he was marveling at how soon you need to shift that TH400 from 1st to 2nd after leaving the line.

The point I believe Box was trying to make is, this is serious business, guys. Too many people have been unpeeled from trees after they take their just-finished "hot rod" out for the first time.

------------------
82 Berlinetta, orig V-6 car, now w/86 LG4/TH700R. 2.93 limited slip. Cat-back from '91 GTA, Accel HEI SuperCoil. AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Daily driver, work-in-progress (LB9 w/ZZ3 cam, TBD heads, exhaust, paint, etc.).
57 Bel Air, my 1st car. 0.030 over 396, Weiand Action+, Edelbrock 1901 Q-Jet, Jacobs Omnipack, 1-3/4" headers, TH400 w/TCI Sat Night Special conv & shift kit, 3.08 10-bolt, AMSOIL syn lubes bumper-to-bumper. Best 15.1 @ 5800' Bandimere. Daily driver while Camaro was being put together.

 

ede,

Nah, you didn't cut me off, it just seemed like lots of guys were going for the 600HP routine without including the whole picture.

It's like the '57 Man said.....don't build a rocket just to become "one" with an oak tree. I think of a car as a set of subsystems...kind of like we have discussed engines as having subsystems of fuel delivery, ignition, exhaust, etc.

So, I think of a car as consisting of motor, tranny, chassis & suspension (including brakes) rear-end, etc.

The wild card here is the driver - because the pilot of a 600HP vehicle becomes a very important part of said rocketship. So, I think of the entire car/driver combo....... it makes sense to build a car at this level that is easier, not harder to drive.

Use a 'matic.....it's faster and a HELLUVA lot easier to drive. Make sure the suspension allows for a straight launch....then you don't worry about guardrail antics.

Oh, and lastly.......God, I shouldn't even tell some of you this (ede,'57, Vader, etc., you guys already know this) but are some of you wondering why I don't just plan an 8.5 to 1 compression 406 with about 17 psi of Procharged, intercooled fun ?

It would be stronger on the big end and have more torque to boot, and since the bottom end will be bullet-proof anyway, why not just use a hydraulic flat-tappet cam and SC it ? Cost is about equal per horsepower.

Too much bottom end - it would never hook on the street. 'Sides that, I'd always wonder when that 27-year-old block with 2 bolt mains was going to turn into a very expensive grenade. Also, cylinder pressure is cylinder pressure, and 17 psi less parasitic losses on an 8.5 to one motor =

oh, I don't know 14 or 15 to one ?

Advance and fuel curves get tricky there, and one mistake can be costly.

Big block in an early 'vette ? It's been done a lot - and those guys have piles of 10 & 11-second time slips to prove it. But, ye old SBC has a mysterious pull on my soul - not to mention a 140 lb. weight advantage.

We'll see if this thing can come together before I begin my fifth decade on this rock. I yakked about it for a year now, so my racing buddies are all screaming "get on with it" !!! They wanna jump in on the build....thank God. I can use the help.

Patience boys, I've got the car in my sights, the $$$ is coming together....and my wife says GO. 'Course, I'll need a little help lifting the tranny back into the blue car before we boogie on the next one, .....Shawn ? Ronny ?


BOR

 

you know its funny....you guys are talkin bout me and a few others ive noticed....though when i made my plan...i didnt see anyone else with it. i started with a stock LO3 still pretty stock...but wanna go to a 400 stroked out fully modded up to 5-600hp naturally...then i wanna go to twin turbos!!!! but i totally agree with yall. though i have driven fast cars. my friends fox body has somewhere around 400hp naturally and 600 hp with nos. i raced a viper and took it in first and second but missed third gear. HEY I DRIVE A AUTO!!! i love the feeling that car gives me when i punch it. feels like a rocket ship launch. thats where i got my goal. i wanna beat him....so i figure since he doesnt EVER use the nos i could beat him with 500. thanks for the advice BOR....ill take it into account.

------------------
Rick
90 Camaro RS 305 TBI
400 small block, Hooker 1 3/4 LTs, Random Tech Cat, Hooker aero chamber cat back on the way!!
TH700-R4 with Trans-Go shift kit (corvette servo here...but not installed yet)
MacEwen Motorsports White Gauge Overlays
14" K&N X-Stream Open Element
GTS Headlight and Taillight covers
5% Limo Tint all around
Classic White Chevy Bowtie sticker on rear window
http://www.geocities.com/esvalenz

Man if my camaro were a rice-rocket all those mods would give me what...easily 50-60 hp!!!

"Just because I've done it, doesn't mean I knew what I was doing!" - Me

 

Woah! really good post. I too drive my stock 16 second 1/4 mile IROC, and want hehe, over 600 horses. i wasn't thinking about the big picture.

Interesting. I would love to have alot of power on the street, but not if its going to be that much of a trip. I also have talked to a person in denver, who just got a voritech supercharger for his stock 350 in his 89 RS camaro, and he said the car was so friggen fast it scared the living §hit out of him whenever he drove it. he finally sold it.

and that wasn't even low 12's i bet.

Is there like a driving course you can take for learning how to drive a sub 12 second car? It would be nice to know the feeling beforehand, so you could judge how fast you want your daily-driver to be.

 

Hey I might **** my pants at some driving point in time, but that will never cause me to sell my baby. Unless its for a faster car!! When you scare yourself, it lets you know you are alive!!

 

BOR, and others it's interesting to talk about 600 hp and if a driver can handel it. when my son was 8 or so i built him several race karts. 5 hp briggs on methanol, made more then 5hp when i was done. and way he says the sensation of speed was greater on the karts than in his camaro and i'm guessing the 355 i built is making a bit over 400hp, maybe a bit under. the karts most likely never got over 35-40 on the track but it was fast. he got on his head once a nd all i can say is no matter what bill simpson charges for his stuff i'll alway have it in my cars and on my sons head. it's funny when we have these little father son talks and he says he's shifting at 6200 or it starts to miss a little on the top end. i agree most people here wouldn't know 300 hp if it bit them on the a$$ let alone 600hp. it does make for some great discussion doesn't it.

 

ede,
I hope nobody took the continuation of the thread as a flame, 'cause no flames were intended - just that if you're gonna bench race, well, think of ALL the implications.

Every good build starts in the mind and progresses to paper, followed by reality.

It occurred to me that by giving some general formulas for how to build 500-600 HP, that I was advocating it for everyone right now.....and that ain't the case guys.

So, is this real ? Yeah, it's as real as it gets, since several people in this discussion have either already done it or are lining up their dollars and ducks to do it soon.

My concern was the guys over on the "power adder" page.......with 600HP goals and not quite enough experience. And, again, with gas or a hair dryer, 600 ponies can be done fairly easily.

Do I know it all ? You've gotta be kiddin me. I know just barely enough to make me cautious....and that's only because I'm an old duffer.

And ede, speaking of kids, we really did run a Honda mini-trail 50 on *** airplane fuel + 102 octane gas......for about 25-30 minutes. Got the boy used to methanol fumes early huh ?

And you guys think I'm wild. YEEHAW !!!!


BOR

 

BOR, i'd like to thank you for taking the time to go over some very basic things that i'm sure most were just to ignorant to include. It wouldnt have ever even crossed my mind that i might black out. That just adds to the thrill of it!!!! ha, no just kiddin'. It is becoming more and more aparent that this is going to become more of a long term goal, i.e. around 5 yrs. Maybe i'll just buy a supercharger for now and start building my "ULTIMATe" engine slowly in my garage.. or with the time and patience of some local mechanics. Or, i might just go buy a new engine and drop it int then run increasingly higher levels of n0s to obtain my goal. I'm also toying with the idea of a v8 Fiero, i'd drop my 350 in there. Thanks once again for the info. This post has been invaluable.

 

Hey guy,

First time I got the "buzz", I was like..... WTF IS THIS ??????

If nobody tells you, how can you know ?

The greatest thing about this site is the incredible depth of knowledge garnered by its' members......so many guys have BTDT in so many different fields.

Slap an idea up here and you'll 10 good reasons to do it, 10 good reasons not to do it, and 4 guys that think you're from another planet......and will tell you so.

What about this: build a good, solid bottom end short block on your third gen, do some racing, and then every year or so, commit to building a tad more power......

All the while driving different tracks, in different weather. Take part in bracket racing for street cars.....hone those driving skills to the point where the competition fears your ahzz....because you've got it all the way together at the track.

You'll develop a "race face", and begin to live in the Zen karma of the real racer. Where the track is a sacred place, and driving is a holy pursuit. Even those familiar apexes near your house begin to look like opportunities for a perfect corner. 4-wheel drift becomes fun instead of scary, predictable instead of heart-stopping.

Where Ricers and "wannabes" are MRE's (meals ready-to-eat) and track babes wonder what's inside that head. (well, if done properly, they'll wonder about BOTH heads).

Ah, so much to learn......so little time.

BOR

 

The G's of a 500cc dirtbike are pretty damn amazing. What I want to know is what kind of G's do those Harleys with 350's and 502's have. That has to be absolutely nuts.

 

no BOR it's great to see ideas get talked about on here like this. it's just that dirk has a few of us here as peace keepers and i try to keep things nice and calm. that's why i locked the last thread and invited everyone interested to continue. i just hate to see flames get started. i'd rather lock a thread and let someone repost if they're that interested in the subject.

i know my little engine, or the 75% 350 as Mr Vader calls it will never make great power compared to a v8, but it'd be respectable and considering the size i'll be happy with it and it's something not may people have done. that's why i love the comp eliminator cars NHRA has.

------------------
ICON Motorsports
1st & 3rd

 

The archive is not good enough for this material.

This kind of information should be posted in the Tech Articles, under something like "How to prevent becoming a statistic" or the like.

Although references to driving ability are raised occasionally, this is rarely talked about in depth. The Control Module in the driver's seat is probably more important than any piece of hardware or system on the vehicle. A good driver can make a marginal car perform, whereas an average driver can be totally inept in the "perfect car". We see example of this all the time, and a narration such as this would at least get potential "performance" drivers thinking about all the aspects and ramifications of their endeavors.

Would the Crate of Crystals be interested in penning a few more ideas together into such an article, to share with (and possibly save) a few prospective drivers of lesser experience?

------------------
Later,
Vader
------------------
"I cannot take this any more... Saying everything I've said before..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0
KaleCo Auto Parts

 

The Orientation Control Module...

Most of us motor people have come to know it as "the big nut that goes between the steering wheel and the driver's seat -- ya know, that great big one with no threads", and have seen more than a few of them work loose and bang all around under the hood and screw up all kinds of stuff.

------------------
"So many Mustangs, so little time..."

 

 

My new big block should be a real rush. When I got my first 11 second pass with the 383 it felt so good. Now when make a bad pass at less that 110 mph it feels boring.

Calgary's track has a media day in the spring. Race cars of all speeds with a passenger seat take media personel on an 1/8 mile pass. When a news reporter gets out of a 9 second (1/4 mile) car after an 1/8 mile pass, they think the driver is crazy to drive the car. . The feeling of the launch is what gets them. Low 1 second 60 foot times really drives you back into the seat.

------------------
Follow my racing progress on Stephen's racing page
and check out the race car

87 IROC-Z Pro ET Bracket Race Car
383 stroker (carbed) with double hump cast iron heads and pump gas
454 Big Block almost ready for the 2001 racing season

Best results before the 383 blew up
Best ET on a time slip: 11.857 altitude corrected to 11.163
Best MPH on a time slip: 117.87 altitude corrected to 126.10
Altitude corrected rear wheel HP based on power to weight ratio: 476.5
Best 60 foot: 1.662

Racing at 3500 feet elevation but most race days it's over 5000 feet density altitude!
Member of the Calgary Drag Racing Association

87 IROC bracket car, 91 454SS daily driver, 95 Homebuilt Harley

[This message has been edited by Stephen 87 IROC (edited January 15, 2001).]

 

Wow! This thread is awesome! I'm extremely glad to see that nobody has taken it as flaming, or taken offense to it, because I think it is very important.

I have to admit that I'm one the the "give me lots of power that I've never had" guys, but I have enough sense to deal with it. I plan to make 430 HP, and it has to be very streetable. If it is not, I will back it down, because the main thing this car is for is to drive, not to race. I just want to have some "Reserve Power!" In all actuality, my bone stock LG4 is probably all I need, but I'm gonna build the 350 "because I can."

I do have to admit though, after reading this thread, I have to add a bunch more money to my budget! There are a bunch of things I didn't think of as being more safety than traction control!

I have thought about how this thing will feel with 400+ HP, and I'm sure I have no idea! I have driven some of the new pony cars with 300+ HP, and they were pretty fun, but I have a feeling that I will never get into all of the power my car will make.

There's one more thing I'd like to add, whenever you're not "afraid" of what your car can do, you'll be in trouble! Over-confidence is a bad thing!

Well, I'm rambling, so thanks for such a cool post, and I hope that many others read and post their thoughts on this!



------------------
Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305 with 200,000 original miles!
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350
using primarily GMPP parts.
Block is in shop!

ASE Certified Master Tech

Starting to look like the Kicker poster child!

 

Man, I can do it. I drive drunk all the time in the IROC, so hell yes, I can deal with the disoriented feeling.

Just kidding.

This topic reaks like old lady perfume.

BOR...understand that prolly 98% of the guys who say the are gonna grab 600+HP are full of S H I T, and they can't even begin to afford the stuff it'd take to put an engine at 600, let alone build one.

Funk dat,

Kelly

Kelly

 

I agree there IROC. Myself, I am going with a combo that I know will be at least 430 HP.

As for the drunk thing, I'm glad you said just kidding! Been there done that! Didn't like it either! Set me behind on my plans for the car by about 2-3 years! Yes folks, I learned the hard way!

------------------
Working on:
'84 Z28 LG4 305 with 200,000 original miles!
Added dual elec fans.
145 MPH IROC Speedo
Building 430 HP 350
using primarily GMPP parts.
Block is in shop!

ASE Certified Master Tech

Starting to look like the Kicker poster child!

 

BOR, I agree with most all of what you're saying here. However,,, exactly what kind of 60 foot time are you talking about,, to experience launch disorientation? I've made a few 60 footers in the high 1.30's ("600 horse" sbc, 3200lb "race car") and have never experienced "disorientation". No one I've asked in person (one has run some low 1.20's) has admitted to anything other than an adrenaline rush,, which is slightly intoxicating in itself,, until the "new" wears off that is.

 

BadSS, you are use to the speed. Imagine though if you had been use to a 15second car and then tried a 1.30 sec 60'. Your "mind", having never had to work that fast...so quick...does get disoriented. But afterawhile, you DO get used to the speed and thats when we start to even think it is slow.

I remember the first time I took my buddy's hopped up Yamaha V-Max for a "squirt". I have owned and ridden many a "crotch-rocket", that were capable of 11 to 12 seconds, but nothing like that. I actually had to back off in 1st as the g-forces were too great to allow me to shift into second...I just wasn't used to that level of power.

You DO have to build up to certain power levels, or it will get the better of you.

 

Now, I'll go along with someone freaking out, maybe having to dump the drawers if they get in over their head. Hell, I'll even admit to checking for a racing stripe or two on the old Hanes myself over the years. However, that's a lot different than your brain slamming against your cranial cavity at launch,, don't you think?

 

People are hating already, this post is not even 3 days old cmon guys.

 

Hating? What hating? Bad and I are just discussing the symantics of the wording in some of the previous posts used to describe the experience of the sensation.

Speed is like a drug...what can be a delightful experience for a long time user may be an overdose to the inexperienced.

PS: This is NOT to promote drugs...just using a comparison.

 

Man,, there's no hate here. Sorry if I came across negative, or confrontational, it was not meant to be.

 

SS,
1966 Mustang, 510HP 4 speed, 10.5" slicks, 5.67 gear, 7,500 RPM launch. No headrest in seats, left front wheel 3" in air. Buzzzzzz.
Headrests help 300% - keeps stuff in helmet from bouncing all over.
Same experience with much slower car, but initial 20' launch was just as hard as above car. Again, no headrest - so I think that's the difference between "fun" and light-headed.
BOR

 

BOR, that'll do it. Sounds like you might have a car that could give you a neck injury. By any chance, do you feel a little stiff afterwards and tingly in your arms?

 

Glenn,

Usually just a tad shaky in the knees.
BOR

 

SIGN ME UP FOR ONE! !

 

I was replying to what IROCracer said