As the title implies.. what are the diffrences between both ?
Solid needs ajustments ive heard, but can rev higher
problem free.. why ?

And theres also mechanical .. to add to the confusion ..
I like high revs.. which one do I need ?

thx

 

mechanical is solid, same thing differant spelling. solids need adjusted same as hydrolics need adjusted, however solids tend to need readjusted from time to time.

 

the simple answer...when the engine warms up, clearances change.

hydraulic lifters use hydraulic pressure from the oil to take up slack
mechanical/solid lifters (same thing) use a small gap between the rocker and valve.


because theres a gap and there isnt always tension on the nut, its like its being tapped all teh time... if they arnt set correctly with polylocks, they come loose.. used to be a big problem. now you can get nuts that wont back off... you still have to adjust for wear every 10-15k or so.

they can rev higher because they are a mechanical linkage. you can run a nice stiff spring and they can take the stress. hydraulic lifters would become depressed and not work if you asked them to compress the stiff springs needed for extreme RPM... a way around this is to use lighter valve springs and have 2ndary springs, like from a rev kit.

same thing..
as to what you need.. its a choice thats up to you dependion on your app and your opinion on the pros and cons.

 

Like already mentioned, solids are mechanical, that refers to the lifter. You can use HR lifters on a SR cam shaft or vice versa. But the SR cam is more for race use, where your going to be adjusting the valve lash on a regular basis anyways. Solids put even more load on the valves and springs because theres no cushion, as there is with a HR Lifter, and having to adjust your lash every 15-20K is a pain in the ***. Not to mention a SR is more for a race car, not a street car, they can be used, but aren't worth hearing all the chatter for the lash, and not to mention this may also be "heard" by the knock sensor as "Knock" and cause many knock retard counts by the computer reducing power, further pushing for the reasoning, that you don't want one in a fuel injected car, unless you relocate the sensor, or use a resistor to fool the computer.

 

If you're running TPI, it will prevent the engine from ever seeing enough RPMs that it will make any difference at all; and it will certainly keep the RPMs at which any useful power is produced from ever being high enough to worry about it. Stick wih hydraulics.

 

no. you cant.




well you CAN... but you CAN also pour sand in your engine... just because it fits doesnt mean its a good idea.

BAD BAD BAD advice.

 

ouch @ that help

help you fry up that block

 

Hmm, interesting

thx

 

hydraulic t'is for da GiRlIe-MaN

 

HEY my friends, pull your heads out of your, you know whats! Yes a hydraulic roller can be used on a solid roller cam or vs. versa. Maybe you should do some research before saying you can't. You can't use a hydraulic flat tappet lifter on a roller cam. I didn't say you could, using a SR lifter on a HR cam or vs. versa is what I said.

This is taken from the feb 04 issue of super chevy:

OEM's favored the hydraulic flat-tappet lifter design for years as the best compromise between power and cost. But hydraulic lifters are far from the best way to make max power at higher rpm. That's because as engine speed increases, the liftersplunger depresses further into its bore due to the increasing forces of the valve trying to accelerate off its seat. The cam then begins to act like an aggressive solid design from the lash that gets created, but now has a shorter duration as a result. The more aggressive the cam acts, the harder time the valve spring has controlling it. As it approcahes terminal velocity, the valve bounces off its seat and oil rushes into the lifter to fill the void that has been created at the plunger. This effectiviely holds the valve open, bleeding off power and limits the high rpm capacity of hydraulic designs. Running stronger valve springs can help control this to some extent.

Solid lobes on the other hand must have a "lash ramp", a.k.a. "
clearance ramp" engineered into them so the lifter doesn't smash into the lobe as it begins to move up the opening side of the cam. The lash ramp is always a less aggressive portion of the lobe than the rest of its lift area. However, once lash is taken up, usally around.030" lift the solid lobe design quickly becomes more aggressive than a hydraulic lobe. That's why a solid cam with the exact same lift and duration figures as an hydraulic cam will usually make more power. An hydraulic lobe doesn't need a lash ramp because the lobes are always in contact with the lifter, instead, hydraulic cams have a short transitional area that actually makes a hydraulic lobe begin moving the lifter quicker, but slows down and tapers off much sooner so as not to toss the lifter off the top of the cam.

With the advent of so many great hydraulic roller cams today, the question is whether or not it's safe or even smart, to run solid roller lifters on them? The answer is as readily disputed as any new form of technology has been in the past, but in a pinch you can do it. You must run very tight lash, .005-006, and watch it carefully, because of the missing clearance ramp on a hydraulic lobe design. Running too much lash will also quickly kill solid roller lifters on an hydraulic roller lobe.

Thats a side note in the super chevy, so please unless you have experience with the matter, don't say you can't do it, like so many online wonders, do. Rather if you don't know about it, or have any know-how or knowledge on the topic, simply don't reply, or your going to get burned by people like me, that will tell it like it is, and know what they're talking about.

 

crons i'd take it a step farther and say if all you've done is read it in a hot rod magazine and have no real life experience with it like you keep your on line expertise to yourself and your head firmily inserted in your you know what

 

Can it be done?

Sure. It might even last a few thousand miles, even though it won't run really right because of the different ramp designs.

Is it the right thing to do?

Probably not.

I can jump off of a 10-story building too. But that doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do, or that some magazine-article reader is going to "burn" those of us that actually have real-world hands-on experience building stuff by using the wrong parts together.

We used to do that alot for circle-track motors, and my late little brother even did a few street motors with flat-tappets that way, using solids on a hydraulic cam. The results weren't as good as getting a properly designed solid cam in the first place. But in a racing class that required a specific lobe lift or even a specific cam ("929" lift rule classes for example) it was a no-brainer, and worked OK for a few 20-lap events.

However, when buying a new cam in an unlimited rules situation, it's kind of stupid to handicap yourself that way with a mismatched setup.

 

well i had a nice long reply.

then it got lost.... heh.




i was basicly repeating what RB83L69 and ede said anyway.

and yes, i do have first hand experiance.... and id imagine thats a lil more then you... i mean you read the artical, but ive read the artical and DONE IT.


RB83L69:
if i recall correctly, steve only got 800mi out of the motor before it fragged a lifter.
other motor got 1300 before distroyed lifter and cam.

 

believe me ede Moderator, I've assembled and ran alot of 400 to 500 horse motors, and am building one right now, and also a 461 pontiac, thats going to be putting out about 650 hp, on motor, so don't tell me I don't know my stuff. I'll admit I haven't tried running a hyraulic roller lifter on a solid roller cam, but it can be done, and that article proved it, there are laws about putting false information in a magazine, and if they were lieing, it wouldn't be in there for that reason.

 

[QUOTE]HEY my friends, pull your heads out of your, you know whats! Yes a hydraulic roller can be used on a solid roller cam or vs. versa.QUOTE]

Listen up clown!!!

Dont go posting bulll shiiit all over the place that has the potential to fuuuck up someone elses engine.

You can run solid roller lifters on a hydra roller cam, but you better know what your doing and have full understanding of what lash is .

YOU CAN NOT RUN HYDRA ROLLER LIFTERS ON A SOLID ROLLER CAM!!!

 

you've built all these 500 hp engines and you're still in high school. i'll have to admit you're right, you can put solid lifters on a hydrolic cam, having it live a long and trouble free life is another question. i guess if you read it in a magazine it has to be true.

 

What laws? I guess you believe everything you read?

 

ok. you're a car genius. absolutly brilliant.


but you still havent done this. so my point about both of reading it, but only one of us actualy DOING it still stands.

you can also run a engine without oil. theres a TV commercial that proved it. the same "laws" that apply to print apply there.... athough, TV commercial ones are a bit stricter... they cant outright lie.

meanwhile i can print a page saying "the sky is green, obey the snake queen" and if i sell it to a magazine, it will go in print. just like the crazy guy on the corner... he printed that the world would end last weekend.... perhaps i should sue him for printing false info.. how dare he.




anyhoo back on subject.


for solid lifters on a hyd cam, the lash has to be super tight. like 1/5th of the lash that im running on my solid cam motor right now.
you have to keep it that tight too... this means that if its a track car, you're setting it every weekend if you dont want your engine to blow.
then again, if you're running a dedicated, trailered race car, you dont halfass somthing like the cam. its not like theres even a diff in price.
hell, because of racers always upgrading and swapping cams, theres a ton of good used solid rollers out there if you really want one.

[saracasm]
but then again, you read it in a magazine, so it must be right.. the contents of that magazine were not written by car guys like us that happen to be able to write... noo, they're all knowing car gods who cannot be questioned and would never post a opinion as fact.

im going to go paint my car hot pink, put a full tweed interior in, a park bench sized rear wing and tub it... because as we all know, a magazine said that was the best way to do it, and they cant lie.
[/saracasm]

 

:lala: ROFLMAO:lala:

 

I'm not in high school friends! Why don't you all come over here on this post and give me some shi* about running hydraulic lifters on a solid roller cam, I'd do it if I wanted to, and NO my motor wouldn't be *****d up either, most of you, on this board don't even know how to lash your valves, or degree a cam, and your flaming on me about some dumb shi*, please I have better things to do, than tell me about how you could run a motor without oil, get a life!

 

i made jester some parts and painted them pink and added a metal tag about his preferance for young boys. pink parts rock. i don't think jester enjoyed it as much as i did.

 

what are you anyway, a bunch of blondes in a sewing circle that just picks one person and then the next, just to talk shi* about them, please, allow me to retort, GET A LIFE!!!

 

ok, first off.... that is one of the longest run on sentances ive read.
i'll try to break it down to replyable chunks.

your profile says student. and you sure dont type like a college student.. lol



i would say it to your face if you were down here. i think it would make for a intresting debateable topic. when on a PC, you have time to think, look at what you typed, ect...
in real life, you cant just make a one or two sentance reply. you have to actually have some in depth knowlage of the subject... and i dont type out nearly as much as i could talk.... would be fun, and id probly have you convinced before you walk away (unless you're pig headded dont listen and jsut get frustrated when someone doesnt agree with you.)


you're right. it would run fine. until the lash got a lil loose on any one rocker... and it starts to tear itself apart.
wouldnt make nearly the same power as a solid roller, and its lash would have to be adjusted more, and if you screw up it will probly hurt some part of the valvetrain, but hey.... it would run right?



i agree. most people on this board arnt mechanics. they're here to learn stuff. to find out answers. the majority of them have never degreed a cam. most never will either.
however they're putting their trust in what people are saying online. on what we're posting as answers.
when you come in and say it works like everything's fine and its a great idea, it kinda pisses some of us off.

you are a ill informed, non experianced kid who thinks what he just said sounds right.
play with cars for the next 3 or 4 years, then do a search, and read your post.... im sure you'll be slapping yourself in the head going "i cant believe i sounded so young and stupid! what was i thinking!?"

naa. im only talking **** to you.. because you're misguiding people on this board. you havent done it. you dont know the details, and you wont even acknowlage the cons of doing it.

you havent said one shread of detail about the subject, you only said i had my head in my *** because of a magazine artical said somthing about it working.

you can retort all you want, but that isnt changing fact.

 

i keep hearing about that... what parts were they? noone gives details.. lmao.

 

custom bonnet to sit on top of his carb for a turbo set up

 

Its like this man.

1. You put out some wrong information and then got all bent when people called you out.
2. You then quoted a magazine that didnt even fully support your position.
3. You bench race and throw out in peoples faces like you have real experience, when you dont.
4. You think you know something??? Well Ill tell you what, if you think you know something then post some real facts to support your position, but I will warn you now, us guys that have responded to your little outbursts will get technical with your punk **** that will take you down to a level that makes you look like a little grade school sally.

Thats how it is, so put up or shut up, cause you aint put shiiit up yet.

 

I've been telling people for years the letters in Penthouse Forum were true for that very reason.

 

Kat

 

thanks kat, i should of known to ask over there about a pic of it

 

no wonder he wasn't impressed... omg. that's just too much.

oh, and crons, a word of advice: be careful who you debate on here. it could make your requests for information in the future get ignored. that would really suck, 'cause some of the guys around here really do know what they're talking about and are willing to help those in need.

 

i want to throw in my view as a semi impaired auto person. i know the basics of how engines work, but to go into detail like MrDude, Omnious, RB, ede, and the list of names goes on do, i cant. i may have a slight idea of what they are talking about but thats obviously why i signed on here, to learn more. ive set valve lash once one my friends v8 s-10, we didnt know what we were doing, we just tightened the nuts till it stopped ticking and tightened them a little more. im sure theres more to it then that but at least ive got that experience under my belt. ive also done basic maitnence, swapped motors, transmissions. but thats about it, and all were for the most part bolt in. maybe ive never worked on 500hp sbc but thats because no one in my family or any of my friends has one. not everyone grows up around motors.

so cron, if the advice your going to offer is what car craft or whatever magazine has done, remember, this isnt car craft! this a random guy from a random city, besides, when im looking for info i skip right over the "well this magazine said that" posts, cause if i wanted to know what they said, i would just go pick up the magazine. if you want to post magazine articles then keep it in the theoretical and street racing board. as for the people with real life experience, thank you for posting and helping people like me out.

and that bonnet is badass :hail:

 

lol that bonnet is classic

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahAHAHAHahaaaaa!

thats great!


(he DID repaint it before putting it on the car right?)

 

Spectre,

I apologize for your thread getting hijacked. While anything certainly CAN be done, I believe Mr. RB summarized it fairly well. Anything can be done to make a TV info-mercial, to satisfy a magazine editor, or to build something unorthodox. I'm sure some people raise eyebrows a bit at the thought of longer Ford valves in SBC heads, but I've seen that done successfully, too.

However, for the purposes of your question and any applications, I'd suggest following the majority opinion to play it safe. I'm sure a set of solid rollers would run on a hydraulic roller cam. The cam surface may not appreciate the extra impulsive loads on the pre-lash ramps due to the lack of "squish" in the more rigid valve train. That's why there are differences in the design of the locking ramps on most hydraulic cams, either flat or roller. Such an installation may last quite a while, but it certainly isn't optimal.


Incidentally, I'm more curious how that custom lid flowed. Know the participants, I'm almost certain the rest of the engine dress was keyed to match the custom lid. Where he found those pink Taylor wires is beyond me, though.

 

Ask and ye shall receive....

Talyor 78751.... Spiro-Pro 90° ends, in the individual in question's favorite nail polish color

 

VADER - apologies not nessessary...

I got the info i wanted.. and a good laugh

 

Oh good gosh, we need to give the original poster some hard facts here.

First things first, if you are building from the ground up there is no reason to mix and match cams and lifter, its just not logical.

However under certain circumstances you can run with SR lifters on a HR cam, but you need to keep HR cam rated springs in place. An example:

A seasonal racer builds a 383 stroker motor with a HR cam and clearnaces rods to avoid cam interferance. Buttons everything up hits the track puts down good numbers but just cant beat valve float at high RPM. So there is power left on the table as the valvetrain is out of control. The only way to swap a cam in this situation would be to pull the whole damn motor and rip it down to be sure that a new solid roller cam will clear the rods, THERE IS NO SECOND GUESSING IN THIS SITUATION. So the racer decides that next year he will pull motor and swap to SR. However, to beat valve float for the rest of the season he will swap in SR lifters that are multiples lighter then HR lifters while attempting to squeeze a better more ET, and controlling his valvetrain.

For the above to work the roller diameter of the SR lifter would need to match that of the HR lifter, otherwise duration would change. If SR rated springs were used above the racer would risk lobe damage on the cam.

Another situation:

If you are running a SR cam and opt to run HR lifters, for some dumb reason, along with the springs that are rated for the SR cam you will pop the HR lifters like popping your dates cherry back on prom night in high school.

 

kids these days always got to fight

I run a hydraulic cam with the lifters that were provided, usually if you buy a cam it will come with the lifters, just a roller u got to soak them in oil before install... I love it, for $80 bucks, it was one of the best thigns i installed on my iroc, hands down.

also: that bonnet is cute haha... wouldnt have it by/on/near my car, but none the less...

 

(Edit: Temporary suspension of Mod activity...)

 

Back to the pros and cons.

HR cam Pros

1. Set it once and forget it, at least for a long time.
2. Quiet operation.
3. Knock sensor friendly
4. Best performance for low maintenance operation.
5. Parts last long.

HR cam Cons

1. It is hydraulic, your spring selection is limited, to high of pressure will colapse the lifters.
2. Lift limited, this due directly to the limited spring selection.
3. Rocker arm selection, throwing 1.6 or 1.7 rockers on HR cam that is on the brink of being out of control will just make matters worse and bring on valve float earlier in the RPMs.
4. Still unable to match the ramp rates of SR cams, this affects power at all RPMs not just the upper Rs.

SR Cons

1. Setting lash, however cars are a labor of love and for some of this is fun, approx every 5000-8000 miles
2. Noise, you will hear it in there, for sure.
3. Spring longevity, springs wont last forever under the abuse here, plan to change them say every 25,000 miles to be on the safe safe side.

SR Pros

1. Fastest ramping lobes available, HR lobes actually dont compare at the end of the day.
2. Fast ramping gets the cam upto max lift and holds it there longer, makes running big runner high flow heads worth it.
3. You can run real springs!!! Now you can start running all the lift in the world and not have to worry about valve float.
4. Tunable by lash settings, has drastic impact on cam behaves, you can get away with running an awfull big cam that has a real decent idle and pulls decent vaccum. Less overlap.
5. Less overlap. This has an enormous impact in the lower Rs. Cylinder pressure will not bleed off and the motor will make more TQ down low.
6. Less overlap+big lift+higher RPM operation makes for a big fat huge power curve. If you take 2 cams say 230/236 duration @.050 one HR one SR the SR cam will have a noticabley greater AVG power output along with higher peaks. It would not be uncommon to pick up 10-20hp at every RPM point in the usable power curve.

If you can get over the fact of setting the lash every now and again SR is the only way to go. SR is not for high RPM only, you will pick up power everywhere in your curve. A big SR cam will idle decent, big HR cam wont be near as tame at idle.

We are in the process of building 2 SR 383 motors right now, I will never run a HR cam in any of my future weekend cruiser/warriors. The only motor I would run a HR cam would be that of a daily driver.

Once I run into some cash, this whole back to school unemployed status is tight on my wallet, I will be gutting the HR cam from my motor and plugging in a SR cam, because I loathe the fact that all my buddys are or will be running around with SR cams.

Hope this hepls, you got my vote for solid roller all day long

 

But, for an otherwise stock TPI car...

(Reimposition of Mod activities)

Even the quoted mag article said, "...in a pinch..."

This has gone from tech to flame much too quickly. The original question was answered, the pink bonnet was an interesting rabbit trail, but I think it's time to say:

"Good night, Gracie."