First off name is Tino and i have an 88 gta 350. Heres whats up, my car starts right up in the morning. If i get gas or run in the store for a few minutes and i go back to the car, it starts right up. But if i let the car sit for like an half hour or longer and i go to start it, it cranks and cranks for like 3 or 4 seconds before it starts. It then idles incredibly low for a few seconds before it gets to normal idle speed. Here's whats new: new FUEL pump, plugs, wires ($300 in labor cuz of the damn headers), cap, rotor, fuel filter, got the throttle body cleaned (helped my "low idle at first" problem, and i think thats it. I had my mechanic look at it twice and he can't find anything wrong with it. He said everything's fine. He said it could be all the **** that was done to it when i bought it by the guy before me (chip, 160 thermo, headers, exhaust, ported throttle body and intake, hallowed cat, that makes it do the things it does. The only other thing i can think of is the fuel relay, what does that cost and was is the difficulty in repairing it. Thanx guys
Tino

 

You may have a failing fuel pump relay. Sounds like the fuel pump isn't pumping w/ ignition on to get the fuel pressure up before starting.

 

Sorry, forgot. The relay is like $20 or even cheaper and it's located along the firewall on the driver's side. Oh, I'm not sure where it is on the Firebirds ... on my IROC there's three relays in a row on the driver's side firewall and mine is the middle one.

 

Sorry, replied to the wrong post .

[This message has been edited by 8Mike9 (edited February 24, 2001).]

 

Might be worth a investment into a fuel pressure gauge, and monitor it after shut off.

 

So you guys think its my fuel relay. What does it cost to have it repaired?

 

TD,

I wouldn't guess the fuel pump relay. Your symptoms sound like an almost textbook case of injector leakdown. If the engine is warm and is restarted within a few minutes, everything is O.K. If you wait several hours, there is an extended cranking period before firing, then low/rough idle, and probably more than normal smoke on startup. If you wait a few days before restarting, it probably pops right off, right?

If this is true, Mike is right on track. Get a fuel pressure gauge connected and watch the rail pressure after shutoff. If the pressure drops to nothing within 30-45 minutes, you probably have a leaking injector(s).

One way to confirm that the problem is NOT with the relay is to turn the ignition to RUN and wait a few seconds before cranking. You should be able to hear the fuel pump running for about two seconds. Once it shuts off, you should have full presure at the fuel rails. If the pump doesn't run, suspect the relay. Incidentally, this will only work if the ingnition has been turned off for a couple of minutes, so turning the key on after just shutting it off won't necessarily cause the pump to run again.

Also, I doubt that the modifications you listed would cause the problems you are describing. They are not that significant to cause hard starting unless the "chip" you are listing is a custom PROM that was poorly engineered - doubtful.

If you do determine that the injectors are leaking, they must be removed for repair. Injector cleaner in a can is a waste of time and cash. Your complete set of injectors can be cleaned and flow matched for about $80.00 once they are removed. Getting them out of there is your responsibility. Getting them returned to good operating condition should be left to Cruzin' Performance. They do excellent work and are very reasonable with a short turn-around time.

Good luck.

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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

 

Vader,

I had a very similar problem years ago with my TPI. My pressure started dropping when I turned the key off (quickly).. and the car was then hard to start after a short wait... fine the next day though.

I suspected leaky injectors so I pulled the entire intake up, hooked the fuel lines back up and tested it. NO leaks! nothing.

I then proceded (in neanderthal fashion) to remove the cold-start injector, plug the idle air & EGR & PCV, and remove all ECM control of the fuel pump by running my own relay from an ignition switched source.
My fuel pressure still dropped when turned off, but my problem was gone.

What happened? what do you think the problem really was?
I changed to an inline pump, so it wasn't that. About the only thing I didn't change was the regulator, so I suspect that. But I also suspect the ECM as well.

 

Thanx for the info vader. So you think its probably a leaky injector. Now my next question is (if it is indeed a injector) should i get them cleaned or just buy new ones. And if it is indeed the fuel relay, what does that cost to repair. Where's the best place to get a fuel pressure gauge?
thanx
Tino

 

Vader?

btt

 

ODB,

It's possible that the regulator was leaking back to the tank, or had a pinhole ing the diaphragm and was flooding the plenum through the vacuum hose. This is possible, but also usually manifests itself through unexplainably rich running and usually gets worse - not better. If your idle was not excessively rich, and the cold start valve wasn't the problem, the remaining logical cause was the regulator. As long as teh leak was in teh regulator valve assembly and not the control diaphragm, the car might have taken a bit longer to fire up but should not have flooded out to cause hard starting after hot soak.

The T-Dogg sounds more like the classic heat soak problem, and the most likely cause of this on an older set of injectors is pintle/seat leakage.

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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

 

Ok vader, i'm pretty sure it's a leaky injector. Should i bring it back to my mechanic and have him find the leaky
injector(s). Should i get all new ones or just replace the bad one and have the others cleaned. And the cruisinperformance place you mentioned i am not near. I live in NY and i think they were located in penn or something. $$$ on injector??
Thanks
Tino

 

TD,

You're "pretty sure" it's an injector (or more than one), so what does the pressure do when the engine is shut off?

You could take it to a mechanic, be he/she will only be able to replace the injectors. If you want to spend $400.00+ for the injectors alone, you could do that. If you UPS or Fedex the injectors to Cruzin' Performance you can get them back in about four days and will have spent $80.00 plus shipping. The injectors will be returned fully functional, and flow-matched better than most new sets out of the box. If you can live with the problem for a while, you can plan to have your car down for a few days while this is done. If you can't wait, replacement injectors are about your only choice. Just make sure the injectors are leaking first.


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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..."
Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0

[This message has been edited by Vader (edited March 01, 2001).]

 

check the fuel pressure and the ijectors for flow rate also check the timing.

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89 firebird formula


356 10.7:1compression
comp cams xe262 cam
performer rpm intake
#1405 edlebrock 600
434 casting completely redone with bronze guides and 202/160 valves 64cc chambers. decked .0005 thousandths
msd 6al
h.e.i. proform 50,000 volt vac. advance ditributor
700r-4 with 3.08 first gear and 3.23 posi 7 5/8 rear end.
b trans shift kit(will kill shifts...suck dong!!)
shorty heddman hedders with custom 3" pipe y-pipe back(no damn cat!) with 40 series flowmaster!

future mods: 406 roller REALLY REALLY REALLY RADICAL!!!!!

 

Hey vader,
I'm guessing you had some past experience with cruzin performance. How do they rate when compared to other fuel injector specialist. Also if one of my injectors is bad, are they gonna wanna replace all 8 or just the bad one and service the rest. How hard is it to remove my injectors (i'm not a mechanic)?
Thanks
Tino

 

T Dogg,

Cruzin' Performance won't replace any of your injectors unless they cannot be repaired. If you need a replacement, they'll contact you before doing anything.

Check their web site. The injectors will be cleaned, flow tested and matched, screens replaced, and new 'O' rings supplied if you need them. The 'O' ring kit alone from GM is about $25.00, so it's a pretty good deal. The cleaning alone generally takes care of any flow problems, spray pattern irregularities, and internal leakage. If you want more detail, email Rich for information.

I've never used any other real injector services. I've had the "in-the-car" cleaning performed with marginal results. The process involves pumping a cleaning agent through the rails and system, and running the engine on the cleaner/fuel mix for about half an hour. This unfortunately does nothing to flow match them, and may or may not work to return the sealing and spray patterns to normal. For the extra labor of removing them, I'll probably never use another service again.

If you're concerned about getting "shafted", I'll share an experience I had. I sent a set of injectors from an LT1 durning overhaul to Cruzin' Performance for the full service. I got an email from Rich stating that they were flowing correctly and the patterns were perfect. I got them back with new screens, clips, and 'O' rings, and a bill for $26.00 (shipping included). I couldn't have bought the rings alone for that much. He could just have easily told me the injectors were completely serviced, charged me the normal $10.00 per unit, and I would never have known the difference since they would have worked just fine. To me, that's integrity. You don't find that as much as you might expect any more, but you will there.

As for removing the injectors, if you've never done it before it would probably take you about five-six hours the first time. Not that you don't have any skill, but many of the fasteners will fight you, and you'll have to mark everything clearly as you disassemble. If you decide to do this, and since the car will be disabled for a few days, it's a really good time to perform a plenum/runner porting, and to install an AFPR if you desire. The cost of this is minimal, since the gaskets are already necessary for the injector work. The existing FPR can be converted to an adjustable unit for less than 50¢ in parts. It's also a good time to remove and clean the EGR valve and perform some other maintenance. Let us know what the plan is.

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Later,
Vader
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"No matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..."
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