I'm posting this just to share some hard-learned knowledge, and to reinforce the all-time classic moniker: KISS... Keep It Simple Stupid.

I just bought a 92 RS a couple days ago. It looks and sounds great with the exception of a weak motor, even for the L03. I chalk it up to injectors and figure I can get around to it after fixing up my 86 and getting it back on the road (needs brakes at the moment... NEEDS). So I'm on my way to work today and the car starts sputtering on occassion when hitting the throttle a little too hard. Eventually it stalls out not a half mile from work. I'm pissed. I try starting it a few times and it turns over, catches for a second and dies. I look at the gas gauge... at least a 1/4 tank. So with all my carb knowledge and knowing nothing about TBI yet, I wonder if it's possible to flood the engine. I let it sit for 10 minutes or so, try again. Still won't catch. Carb manners kick in again and I gas it trying to start the car. Now it won't even catch.

Well great, now I have to get it towed. Fortunately it's early in the day and I figure it can be fixed today. It gets towed, the garage looks at it, and the mechanic comes back with those forsaken words: fuel pump. I look up at the sign that says $74/hour labor and **** my pants. All I know is the pump is in-tank and it's not easy. What choice do I have? I give the go-ahead and I get a lift to work.

I'm annoyed at work, mostly cause I just got the car two days ago and now I have to shell out more money. Finally the garage calls me back and tells me what really happened.

"You ran out of gas."

What?! He went on to explain that whoever put the fuel pump in previously had installed it incorrectly, causing the gauge to read about 1/4 tank when it was actually empty. He posed the following options (seeming apologetic, fortunately): keep the original pump and only charge labor (at this point somewhere around $450 once it was back in the car) or install a new pump correctly for the original quoted price (about $650) and keep the old pump. I know I didn't want to tackle a fuel pump job myself if I could avoid it in the future, and the old pump was already out. I asked if it could still be done today, he assured me that the parts were already there and it should be done no problem. I wasn't about to spend $450 just to be late to work and have my gas filled, so I said go for it. I might as well come out of this with a new pump.

A few more hours go by; it's about 3pm and they give me another call. "It's not going to be ready today." You've got to be ****ting me. He told me they had the wrong pump sent to them and had to wait to get another one. The correct pump was there when he called (so he said), but there wasn't enough time to get it in the car. The mechanics leave at 4:30. What kind of garage closes at 4:30?! I try to keep my cool but press further, because I'm basically stranded 40 minutes from home. He can't get anyone to stay later and I don't seem to have a choice in the matter. Again, in their defense, the guy on the phone is apologetic, but I'm **** out of luck and have to get back to the garage tomorrow somehow to pick up the car no matter what happens.

I got a ride home, but had to leave work early. Fortunately it's a Friday and where I work it's not that busy on Fridays, but I was already two hours late getting in and I don't like portraying myself as unreliable. Still, I have no choice in the matter. So now I still have to find a way back to the garage in the morning, and am dreading the possibility that these guys will charge me more than the ~$650 they quoted me this morning. All for an empty gas tank.

Thoughts? Comments? Anything smell fishy possibly? Post up.

 

fuel pumps suck. i wouldnt mess with one unless you're sure you know what you're doing. when my pump went, i didnt try to mess with it myself. i watched my dad's friend do it on his blazer and ignite the tank pulling the pump out.

 

6 hours?

My friend and I changed his fuel pump while laying on the ground, in the grass, no creepers, no air tools, no extra jack to lower and lift the tank, and we did it in ~5 hours.

What the hell??? Is this guy doing it with his eyes closed?

BTW, every mechanic I know would have tried putting gas in the tank first, just to make sure.

I guess you really don't have a choice though.

 

Eh, happens to the best of us, especially with the crappy stock gauges.

I dont even trust the gas gauge in my car. Itll read a full tank, next itll be on empty, then itll read a quarter... When it stalls and bucks while making right turns is when I get gas. If Im taking a trip I just tell 'em to squeeze as much in as they can.

If you listen closely to the pump while it primes you can hear immidiatly if it has gas or not by the slight drop in pump speed and the sound of the fuel going through the regulator.... Maybe one day Ill replace my sending unit.

 

Can an incorrectly installed fuel pump cause that bad of a gauge reading though?

 

My guess would be that whoever did it the first time screwed up the float, and it read 1/4 when it was empty/

 

First off, when we replaced the pump in my brother's IROC, we did it in about 3-4 hours, and that was a first time job for us, with creepers, on the ground, running back and forth to the garage for tools. I would imagine a shop with a lift and the proper tools RIGHT THERE could do it in less.

Secondly, I would think a shop would at least diagnose the problem with some sense before doing that to someone. Like was said, if the pump is suspected, all that needs to be done is add a little gas or listen to hear the pump, or both. The shop made a pretty penny off of their 'guess'. I would try and demand some or all of the money back. Who knows if they really even DID pull the tank down and check the pump/assembly? For all you know, someone could have messed with the needle on your gas gauge and it could be off that way, and they coulda put some gas in it and SAID they did all that work (which may explain why it wasn't done when you said you wanted a new pump in it while it was apart, because they hadn't really taken it apart). Eh, maybe I'm off on that suggestion, I'm just saying... Anyhow, I think you got taken on that deal, sorry to put it that way, but it's a tough lesson and I'm sure you're not happy about it either. We all live and learn. Can't say I've never missed the obvious conclusion for things, myself.

BTW, I don't trust garages at all, except for my local guy back home whom I have do alignments and such that I can't do myself. You can do about anything if you have the willingness to learn and the patience and time.

 

i know it sucks but i'm 99% sure that (if they did drop the tank) it only took them 1 hour max...but i bet the labor manual says 6 and the techs r flat rate so they'll get 6 hours of pay. i used to work in the service department at a chrylser dealership and i know how shops can screw people over....i hope that they'll take some off the quote due to them messing up with getting the wrong pump...if they don't....demand it

 

Agreed.

When I got my car a little over a month ago, there was a hole in the tank AND the fuel pump would not shut off (needed to be replaced). My mechanic pulled the tank, sent it off for a spot welp and paint, re-installed it, and then installed the new fuel pump. Total was $400.

Of course there were many other jobs that were included in the same visit so it's likely the mechanic cut me a deal on all the work knowing I would be a regular customer.

So who has the "book" and can tell our fearless moderator what the labor is on this job?

 

When I had mine done in the T/A is was $500 including the fuel pump.

One thing you might consider is putting in a hi-flo fuel pump. Especially if you plan on doing any engine mods in the future.

 

The old (1995) book I have states that the labor is 4.5 hours.

The process described for that 4.5 hrs is:

R&R Cat back exhaust

R&R Read end housing (control arms, panhard bar, torque arm, rear end)

R&R fuel tank

R&R fuel pump / sending unit


Our standard practice for diagnosing a similar problem would have been to cycle the key or hotwire the relay so we could hear the pump.

If the pump was running we would disconnect a line and check for fuel. If no fuel we would throw a gallon in the tank and try again.

Once we had fuel we would check with a fuel pressure gague for adequate pressure. If pressure was low we would reccommend changing pump.

If he pump was not running we would check fuses, ground etc...

As for cost, we would only get GM pumps from the dealer. Airtex and some the other pumps we would get from local part stores did not last or were very noisy. The GM pumps are about 2x to 3x the money.

Also if we knew about the gague issue, we would replace the "sending unit", which is the bracket the pump mounts to with all of the feed, return, and vent lines, as well as the float and gague sending unit. These units (without pumps) are about $200 - $300 at the dealer. (They might not be dealer items only any more)

Also when buying a GM pump you need to have the old pump out so the parts guy can get the specific part number off of the pump tag. (similar to the numbers on EGR valves). Pumps varied by vin model year etc... Airtex pumps were not so "specific"

The parts parts and labor figure are accurate for 4.5 hrs labor ($335, which leaves $265 for a pump / sending unit)

The question is the need for a pump, and if he only replaced he pump, did he fix the gague issue IMHO Probably not.


Was the mechanic out to screw the guy, probably not. Maybe just a victim of a misdiagnosis caused by a busy day, inexperienced technician, owner input ("It has a quater of a tank... ) etc... but if the car has a new pump and the owner was not willing to do it himself why shouldn't the shop get paid? The ownwer is now in possesion of a new pump and what it took to install it, why shouldnt he pay for it?

 

Thanks for the info littlebagz. I agree with you that they should get paid for doing the work, regardless. I do pretty much the same work, just with computers, and time equals money. I'm just hoping they won't charge me any more money because they've had the car there all day yesterday and some of today. Obviously they didn't follow proper procedure for diagnosing a fuel pump, and I can safely say they weren't too busy to bother with procedure. Still, I doubt they were out to screw me.

lol.... fearless moderator.

 

As far as getting the wrong pump, it can happen. Just last week an EGR valve was ordered up from Ford but that's not what came the next day. Even though the box was marked that it was an EGR valve, inside was a belt tensioner Or a clutch master cylinder for an Isuzu, wrong length rod so there was like an inch of pedal movement before doing anything. Shops get the wrong parts sent to them all the time even if they give all the correct info to the parts place.

 

I think its funny when people throw parts at a car hoping to fix something. "maybe its the plug wires.....wasnt that....hmmm... distributor??"

I think its unacceptable when a proffesional does it at your expence, plus labor.

I would have a little chat about diagnosis procedures with them. Make the mechanic eat some or all of his time for not properly taking the time to "really" diagnose whats going on before spending your money on his labor. He simply didnt do his job and its costing you big time!

Professionals should never throw parts at a car and hope it fixes it. I would as politely as possible make sure that they know that you expect to not have to foot the entire bill and if you end up having to, youll let everyone know. Word of mouth is a mechanics cash cow, but a bad rep is money lost.....

Edit: Thinking about it more, you can complain because of his lack of diagnosis, and what should have took $5 in gas: you lost 4 hours of work, You had to get a ride 40 miles each way, and you lost your car for a few days, and you now have a $650 bill to boot. If you would have known the needle was off would you pay $650 to have it adjusted.....I hope not.

 

Alldata shows 3.8 hours plus time to drain the tank and parts. So if you brought it to me it would run about $365.00 if the price Alldata shows for the pump is accurate (75.00)

BTW, there are several "books" Alldata being one. There is also Motor and Chiltons. I'm sure there are several others.

 

A friend of mine is bringing me over there to pick up the car today. A friend that worked in a Ford dealership garage for a number of years and knows cars, parts and prices inside and out.

 

Time to change fuel pump goes all over the place no book time is the same. Chilton gives add ons that come out between 4-5 hours, Alldata like mentioned 4.5-5.1, Mitchell seems to be the highest of all the books and very well could be 6+ hours.

 

Ugh, I would never own one of these cars if I was planning on having a shop do any work. The only thing I would leave for a shop to do on one of these cars is the rear end diff. A couple of trips to the shop and you've doubled the cost of the car.

Sounds like the shop is being honest sort of. Just not very good.

 

Ditto

When you own a 20+ yr old car, be prepared to bend over if you don't do your own work.
Mecahanics aren't always crooked, in the sense that they would knowingly burn you. But there always seems to be a major "human error" factor that needs to be figured into the formula. And in many cases a rookie mechanic might misdiagnose a problem and the options are:
a) Customer eats it
b) Mechanic loses his job

And with a car like ours, there's an increased possibility for a misdiagnosis.

There's a lot of homework that goes into knowing how to keep my own cars running right. And the more I learn about servicing my own cars, the less likely I am to trust someone else to do it.

 

to put it nicley , you got shafted

 

I agree with you to some point, we dont want him to lose his job for sure, but "out of gas" is a terrible thing to tear apart a car for....

I just think he should eat some of his own labor, chalk it up like a comeback...

 

True...

There's too much to be said on the topic to put it into one post.
Personally, at $70+ / hr, I get awfully nervous about putting my car into the hands of someone else unless I'm sure that he's competent with repairs to my particular model.
And addition to that I'd make certain that the problem is not something that I could have repaired on my own.

One of the things I like most about TGO is that the majority of users here are guys that have something in common. We wrench on our own cars, cause if we had money to burn, we probably wouldn't own a car like this to begin with.
I'm a firm advocate of backyard auto repair.
People who do their own repairs tend to not take their cars for granted.
As it should be.

 

I agree he should eat some labor and all the parts if the sending unit is repairable. A bad fuel pump isn't hard to diagnose. Even easier when their as loud as the pumps on these cars are.

 

While I've done automotive work before and I know that time is money I still would be an a$$ about the whole thing since they said the pump would fix it and it didn't and won't but that's just me. I ask my girlfriends family or this board about what's wrong and fix it myself because I KNOW how much shops try to shaft people outta their money.




I suggest saving your receipt incase the pump fails sometime in the next year you can take the car back and demand a replacement for free since a pump shouldn't die that fast.

 

Well I have the car back. It turns out I was charged the originally quoted price, $650 and change, but not charged for towing. They spent about 3 hours on it today putting it together, and probably at least 3 hours on it yesterday, plus a whole day taking up their lift. So I guess it's not all that bad considering it was shop cost.

But hey, the gauge works great now. They also gave me the original fuel pump.

 

good job, you paid more than i did for my entire car

 

What was the purpose of that remark? You aren't contributing to this thread. Thats not saying much of your car.

 

It's ok, 87350IROC... I found this in his profile:

Occupation: Bum

hehehehe

 

I typed a big response but whats the point, enjoy the visa bill.

I bought my car with a non functional drive train as a project.
Now runs quite nice thank you.

Yes im a bum. I use monopoly money to fund my car.

 

Sometimes people have to take their car into the shop out of necesity, especially if they dont have the time or the facilities to do the work themselves.

I personally have gotten ripped off or had the work screwed up too many times. I usually steer clear of shops now when I have a problem. Seems too many of them are completly staffed by slimeballs.

 

I'm lucky I guess. I have a shop that I trust completely. The owner is a nice guy and even gives me some tips on mods.

If I can't do it myself or don't have the time, then I take it to him.

 

Most of the time its not that they're slimeballs, its just that they're incompetant and have no business being in a position of "professional" auto mechanic. Its not that they're out to screw you, its just that they don't effing know any better.

 

Actually, the reason I got into the mechanic field was so I would be able to work on my own car. I can't (won't) pay anybody to work on my car any more. It's too expensive, and many of the "mechanics" in my area got their credentials with 3 UPC symbols from Frosted Flakes. Now, all I gotta do is buy parts.

 

Ive had two shops screw up royally. Bunch of other times they just plain tried to rip me off. The worst was an attempted 1800 dollar repair for a clogged egr that they knew about. The last time was when I drove in with my parents to put new tires on the crustang in my sig. Its got problems so I thought Id jsut get a set of your basic black and rounds since the car might not last... They immediatly talked my parents into getting the most expensive set of potenzas they had on the shelf and I couldnt talk them out of it no matter what. Needless to say, they where paying at that point. On top of that, they applied me for a firestoned credit card without even telling me. Since I dont believe in credit cards I was naturally turned down because of no credit.

The one that was kind of funny was when I was having my eclipse serviced for a blown head gasket. I was listening the mechanics and they where making fun of another mechanic at soem shop that didnt close the door of a car before lowering the lift. Naturally that was jsut inviting fate. As soon as they began to lower my car off the lift I hear a loud crunching sound and 'holy ----, STOP! The doors still open!' Needless to say they crushed the bottom of the door in. They fixed it as well as fixed a leaking valve stem and fully detailed the car for free to try and make it up. However, I dont think they covered it properly in the body shop. They got overshoot all over the car and the paint looked and felt like 600 grit sand paper.

So far the only decent, but very expesinve, experience was with a honda dealer. Although I thought they where a bunch of SOBs. They did good work, though.

 

I got shafted once before, as well... by a Firestone! In Hackensack obviously. When I got my first Camaro (84 SC) the brakes were a little crappy but not bad, except the e-brake didn't work. I didn't know much of anything back then, and brought it to Firestone to have them take a look at the e-brake. They came back and said almost everything in the brake system needs to be replaced! I ended up with a hefty bill on my new Firestone credit card. I found out a couple years later that this was a common scam amongst Firestones in general. In the end, that car got hit anyway, and most of the interior ended up in my 86, but the brakes are sitting in some junkyard somewhere.

 

You gotta let me use that one!!

 

alot of time's the mechanic will suggest a part for replacment if it is questionable...ie... the complete brake job. the reason the mechanic does this is to cover his a$$. i work at a gm dealership and get lovely customer that say "my a/c doesn't work since you replaced my intake gaskets 6 months ago" and then expect me to fix there a/c for no charge. to be honest, the mechanic fixed the cust problem of this thread. he would have had to r&r fuel tank to fix the sender, would he not. the mechanic didn't have to tell the customer about the sender, he could have just replaced the pump, and installed it properly, added 2 gallons of gas and went about his business. as for $650. look at it as now you have an accurate fuel gauge, and new pump and strainer. best of luck, tom

 

Man, you guys are brutal to shops, but I will admit that there are a lot of them out there that are butcher shops and when people want cars fixed right they bring them to my shop. I myself have fixed several vehicles where crappy parts were put on or butchers that didn't know what they were doing got there hands on it and my policy is unless something is fixed right, beyond a shadow of a doubt, it doesn't leave my bay. Too bad there's not more guys with high standards out there.
We are probably one of the most honest shops left in NJ. lol! To get to the price issue real quick I've watched in amazement as our service writers have knocked 500-1,000 dollars if not more off of a customer's bill because they keep coming back and trusting us with their vehicle. :-) So, like I said, not all shops are bad, but you do have to choose carefully and remember that mechanics need to make a living too! Glad to hear your car is finally fixed man, rock on!

 

I dont really have a problem with the fees they usually charge. They wouldnt be able to pay all their expenses and turn a profit if they didnt. I really hate when they try to get all they can out of me. Really get PO'ed when they get greedy and then think they can charge me for services that I dont need just so they can walk home with more cash.

Streetmachine19, I sent you a PM.

 

Okay, here's a lovely one... I brought in two rear gta wheels to get some new tires put on them (just the wheels mind you).. Had to tell them what kind of car they were going on. Well, though I was a little perturbed by the $7 shop supply fee (this is in addition to tire disposal and new valve stems and stuff; its just 3% off of the total ticket value), that wasn't what shot up the ... When I got the receipt and it had things like "Recommend Fuel Injection Service", thats what reinforced every reason why I'm the only one who works on my GTA.

(I had just got the motor put in, with brand new injectors and all )

When places start recommending things for a car they've never seen, hmmmmmmm....

 

I had that happen as well when I brought a wheel in to have the tire patched. They recommended lots of high milage service for the car including a fuel injector cleaning. Its funny, too. Since I have tbi the injecters will probably never need to be cleaned for as long as I own the car.

 

When I was getting my tires done, they recommended a new set of plugs and wires. OE stuff. Parts labor and tax was only $160. I had done a full tune up the day before. They didn't even balance my tires correctly.

 

What shop is this? Can't beat a trustworthy shop with a thirdgen fan on the payroll. Hopefully in North Jersey.

 

I haven't had any problems with shops working on the Camaro, because all I've had others do were windshield, front end alignment, and paint.

I had an experience with the '57 last year, though, that started in May and finally ended in September. I was going to drive it to my high school reunion over Memorial Day weekend, but one front suspension bushing had complete disintegrated. I got a set of poly bushings from Summit in early May, but was working mandatory overtime and couldn't get to the job. So, a week before, I called the neighborhood brake/suspension shop, they said they'd put my bushings in for $325. Drop it off Monday (I am leaving Friday), they'd get it done by COB. I get a call about 4 p.m., can they keep it another day - got busy and couldn't get to it. Tuesday, I call early afternoon to see how they're doing; it's more of a job than they thought, maybe by 6 o'clock. 5:30, call again, not done, can they keep it and finish Wednesday. Wednesday afternoon, got most of it done, had to lift the engine off the mounts (not true, but that's what they did), still need to finish the alignment. 6 p.m., I show up at the shop, the alignment guy is finishing up. I finally get it at 6:45 p.m., they take $50 off the bill.

I drive the 400 miles one way to reunion with wife & daughter. The radio is especially noisy, hear a buzzing noise under the hood when idling of same frequency, makes me wonder if the alternator is about to quit. No other problems on the trip.

Following weekend, I'm back at the track. 1st time trial, it won't rev over 5000 RPMs. I'm looking it over in the pits, buzzing sounds like it's coming from the distributor. Remove cap, notice number stickers on the plug wires that weren't there before - shop put them on when they removed the cap when they lifted the engine off the mounts. Didn't see anything wrong, buddies come over ask what I'm doing, tell story, remove cap again and discover coil ground wire wasn't on its terminal, just stuffed between the terminals. Fix that, revs properly again, buzzing goes away, radio quiet again.

Late-June, during run throws fan belt. Put it back on, discover one alternator mount bolt missing and the rest loose (alternator right above left suspension arm). Replace, tighten, continue running. Following week bolts loose again. Following week looking over mount bolts and discover one of the a-arm bar end bolt & washer is gone, bushing guts gone. Can't get just one poly bushing, order another set from Summit and a-arm bolt/washer set from Danchuck. Mid-July during run lose fan belt completely during eliminations, makes a welt in the hood. Frantic call to wife to get more fan belts out to me. While she's on the way, discover alt fan missing 3 blades on one side. Bud pitting next to me who just went out loans me his alt fan. Finish race, get new alt fan for next week - then go through 4 belts at $10 a piece in one day. Finally figure out that the alternator shaft has about a quarter inch end play, take alternator to Checker Friday night for warranty replacement, next day end season in 6th place and qualify for Division V ET finals.

In the end, it cost me about $500 to have those $50 bushings installed. All because I didn't have time to install them myself.

 

So basically you're saying to take this with you?

 

True, we need to cover out a$$es as much as possible. Of course you guys at the dealer do like to up warrenty work time.
If you take a FP test, check power ect theres a 1/4 of a tank on the guage the next step is to R&R the fuel pump.

People may not beleive this but there are customers out there 10X worse then any crooked shop. Like Mckenzie said we get crap all the time "It wasent like that before" "It worked before you serviced it" "When you put the clutch in you ruined my alternator" All that kind of BS.

 

But they did ruin my alternator...

(Well, they didn't ruin it. I ruined it by running it with the bolts they left loose.)

We all want to get the most for the least (especially at the pick & pull). That's human nature. What's unnatural is to work at overcoming that and being fair-minded. Regardless of which side you happen to be on.

I appreciate CaysE's attitude that they deserve to get paid for the work they did. Who would think to add 5 gallons of gas to make sure there's something in there when the gage reads 1/4 tank? Besides, the gage works properly now.

The last 3 in-tank pumps I replaced, I did myself. The last was a re-do, and I only got the fuel pressure gage before doing it because I just couldn't convince myself that the new pump I had put in was really bad - it was.

 

Personally, I'm saying do as much of the work as you can yourself.