My 350 needs new valve seals. M Hall suggested that I consider getting new heads all togethrer. So I called my mechanic up and asked for an estimate on the labor, and he'll get back to me tomorrow.

What do you guys reccomend? I was thinking new heads, new cam, and maybe a new throttlebody? Anything else?

I want to use the car for street/track with the occasional drag race. What parts would be good for this application? I'm new to tuning cars, so I'm not sure what to look for.

Thanks,
Bill

 

P.S. the car isn't even registered yet, I still need to go to NJ department of motor vehicle services to get my paperwork cleared. Then I need to get it to pass inspection. Will adding performance parts make me fail emissions? For all I know it'll fail the test right now

 

Well Sir, I would personally look at a set of GM Vortec heads
PN# 122558060, they are a very reasonable way to throw up
to 50 hp at your car, without affecting mileage or emissions.
But-you'll have to change your lower intake as well if you go
this route-Scoggin-Dickey Performance in Texas makes a nice
(but expensive) intake for TPI cars, it's around $400. Depending
on how much money you want to spend, this is the perfect time
to do the SLP (or similar) intake runners. With all the deep breathing
that you'll be able to do with this set-up, a lumpier cam would be
cool, as well as some 1.6 rockers. The list goes on and on....

It all comes back to the old formula:
How fast do you want to go? / How much money do you want to
spend?

 

I have an abundance of need for speed, but not for cash. Add this to the fact that I'm paying a mechanic to do it, since I can't afford it myself. How long should a head/cam swap take?

For the Vortec heads, why would I need a new intake?

Bill

 

Do you mean 12558060?

The GM site claims 20-40 hp gains, not 50

There is also an aluminum version. 12464298

What's the difference?

 

oh comon,all you serious engine tuners, and noone can reccomend any performance parts?

 

Ok, 1st, vortecs are truck heads. End of story.
2nd, TPI is a torque monster intake, and since you didn't mention pulling stumps as one of you're favorite past times, lose it.
3rd, --

Before I get carried away, give me you're limiting factor. What's your goal? ET, top speed, handling, wheelie car, and then tell me what you want to spend. Let's be realistic to. For example,
"I have $1,000 to spend. How fast can I go?" or
" I want to run 12.3 in the 1/4, what do I need to do."
If you don't set a goal, you end up pissing in the wind.

 

I want a fast street/track car that I occasionally drag. I want a car that will have adequate engine performace to help me when I'm manuvering the car, not just straight line.

I'm not totally sure about how much $$$ I'm gonna spend. I need to keep in mind that I'm paying for a local mechanic to do the work as well.

How much do good heads cost? $200-700 a piece? What about a crank/lifters/etc/etc?

I'm looking at this as an ongoing project that I'll keep adding parts to as I get more $$$ as well, so it's hard to set a definative goal. I definately want the most bang per buck.

Thanks,
Bill

 

P.S. I'm also looking for increases in power across the RPM range. The engine is stock right now, so I'm guessing its best to start out with a mod that will help me across the board.

 

If you have L98 (350 TPI) heads already, just use those. They are good heads, and can be great heads with the same work you'd have to do to Vortecs to make them just as good.

TPI is holding your engine back much more than your L98 heads are, and so is the exhaust system if its the factory system.

I'd suggest first getting a set of headers (1-5/8" tubes, 3" collectors at least) and a 3" catback system. After that, you need to do something about TPI. You could do a carb swap and gain alot of power that way. A carb ould probably run you $300-500 depending on what you get, and the intake anywhere from $100-300, again, depending what you get. Theres also aftermarket EFI systems that would work well for you too, like the MiniRam and Stealth Ram, but that stuff doesn't come cheap. I don't know much about those systems though, so I won't say anything about them other than that they are capable of much higher performance than TPI is, but so is a 4bbl setup.

 

Sorry Bill, one too many 5's....

With the aftermarket SDPC manifold, you should pick up more than
the 20-40 advertised HP. Our centerbolt heads have a different
bolt pattern than regular small blocks....I've heard you can drill the
base manifold to fit, but you won't catch me doing it. Edelbrock
makes one too, but I've been hearing things about QC, and I'll
stick with the Scoggin-Dickey model(which is cheaper anyway).
As far as a cam goes, I'd call Competition Cams, and give them
the rundown of all your components(rear gear ration, GVW, trans
type and stall speed if auto trans, etc.......)-they have always been
very helpful to me, and every cam they have ever suggested
worked very well.

 

Air Adam,

Thanks for the advice. However, my engine is smoking at startup,so i need a valve job anyway, that's why i figured i should start w/ new headers.

what do you guys think?
Bill

P.S. M. Hall, what is SDPC and QC ?

 

Scoggin-Dickey Performance Center

Quality Control

 

Um, vortecs are simply the best production small block head that GM has ever made. End of story. There is no other small block head that came on a vehicle from the factory that can come within 20cfm of the vortec’s flow numbers on the intake and the exhaust is much better then the rest. They are roughly what you would do to a set of older factory heads if you were porting them for mild racing/performance use, as cast.

The reason that they came on trucks is that that was the only thing that still used that engine by the time they came out, and for that matter, trucks are the bread and butter of the domestic car maker’s market, they make more money there then everywhere else. If you look hard you’ll find that they get many of the best parts available.



Wrong again. TPI’s runners are tuned for harmonic peaks around 3500 and 5200 rpm. There are better combinations from making bruit torque down low with a SBC. The reason that they fall flat on a 350 before the second harmonic peak is that the heads that were used are pieces of junk that don’t flow enough to make power past about 4800rpm.



You have to do quite a bit of work to get L98 heads in the same league as the vortecs. As cast, from the factory, the L98 heads top out at about 175-180cfm on the intake, the vortecs top out at about 220-235cfm (exhaust comparisons are even more slanted towards the vortecs). With a good, multi angle valve job and some pocket porting you can get the L98 heads to flow in the low 200’s on the intake, at which point it will keep up with the “crappy” _stock_ TPI intake which all put together flows in the low 200 cfm range per runner.

MOST centerbolt heads have the same basic SBC bolt pattern. They typically have the center bolts drilled at a different angle then older parimeter bolt heads, but that could be fixed by just slightly widenting the center bolt holes. There are also companies that sell angled adaptor bushings to use under the head bolts to adjust for the angles.

Vortec heads have the vortec/fastburn bolt pattern, which is totally different. It doesn’t have the center bolts at all, and the outers are different. The port location is also about 1/8” higher then a traditional SBC head, and a lot of manifolds will not seal up to the ports correctly, even if you drilled matching bolt holes.

As far as 40hp… any head that flows up to what the TPI intake flows + appropriate exhaust and tuning changes will give you roughly that with no other changes. The vortec head and manifold base swap just happens to be one of the easier, off the shelf swaps to accomplish just that.

 

You beat me to it Crossfire but you didn't mention where the vortec head design came from. Course someone interested in learning would hit the search once in a while and not confine himself to absolutes.

 

So it looks like M Hall, Crossfire,and naf are all thumbsuping the vortec heads (it looks like I have 2 choices for my engine... cast iron and aluminum, the aluminum is 3 times the price, which should I go for?). Are there any other heads I should consider? What about a cam?

How many hours would it take for a mechanic to install heads... trying to figure out how much labor will cost.

Thanks!
Bill

 

you could also the consider the WP S/R Torquer heads, they're iron, but cheap, even fully assembled. IIRC they have holes for both standard centerbolt and perimiter.

 

Or the Sportsman IIs like I'm using with the 200cc ports

 

In order to use centerbolt covers on them you have to grind down the perimeter bolt bosses. They don't have '87-up bolt pattern with 64cc chambers, only 76cc - not good. The bowls really need clean-up, so the heads shouldn't be bolted on as-received. They're decent heads, but not bolt-ons.

All of these "suggestions" so far have ignored the need for PROM tuning when modifying a SD TPI engine. Nor have I heard anyone asking the "e" question.

wgripp, you are asking questions so basic, you really need to do more boning up before diving into any of this. Don't expect all of your questions to be answered in this one thread - there's just too much you're asking. To boot, most of these kinds of performance improvements need to either be done by someone who really specializes in TPI, or by the tinkering owner.

Finally, just because your car smokes on startup, that doesn't mean it needs a valve job. It means it needs the valve seals replaced, which does not even require removing the heads.

 

Excellent point!!!!

 

I would never say that vortecs are for everybody (that would be an example of an absolute). There are several other really good heads out there. But if you're changing your manifold anyway you'll negate the big downside to vortecs (special intake required). SDPC even has a vortec head combo that has everything included and can save you some cash vs. purchasing separately. They even offer the vortecs machined with upgraded springs. Check their internet site.

If you're going to have a mechanic do the work, you may wind up cheaper in the long run having the engine pulled and a crate installed. Find a good mechanic near you and talk it over, you may even find a good local deal on some used heads. You can always run it by the guys here to make sure it's a good idea.

Or make a new friend that will help you do it yourself.

 

I agree with Five7. He was a little more to the point but I was trying to say that there's so much to consider (heads/cams/intake/etc.) that you really need to take some time to learn how. It's rarely worth the money to pay for the labor on these jobs. While you're learning how you'll figure out what parts you want and need.

 

post #2 you mention passing emissions in NJ. I've heard that can be as bad as CA. If thats true then you're not going to get away with induction changes very easily. For instance, here in CA you can't use heavy duty rated motors in passenger cars and I believe that includes Vortec truck motors.

 

Although he mentioned "inspection", it wasn't defined as emissions inspection. I was under the impression NJ had a safety inspection as well, and not all areas of NJ require emissions - but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, that needs to be understood before big changes are made.

Crate engine isn't a bad idea, either.

 

Yeah, if you're paying a mechanic for the work the crate engine gets everything done at once and your labor costs can be lower than tearing into stuff. You'll come out with a warranty and there's always the little stuff you have to fine tune ( or fix) after a head or cam swap and so on.

 

I agree, smog... You'll have to find out what's legal or not. What do you have for an exhaust? You can just do valve seals and headers+catback. You don't need to pull the heads or change the intake to do the valve seals, as aluded to earlier. You don't even need to pull the intake. Just move some stuff around and pop the valve covers and spark plugs and go to work.

Cam without headers...not my first choice.

1) Cat-back
2) Headers
3) High flow cat(s)
4) Decide where you want to go from there.
4b) As five7kid indicated, who's going to tune your setup?

5a) Decide what you want to run and how your powerband will be. Pick your cam. Pick your heads to accomodate the cam (or decide to port the heads), and then free up the intake. Install them all at once.

5b) Do a cam only to give your setup a little boost, you have a few choices. CompuCam 2032, LPE 74216, and CompCams 08-302-8 (264HR).

5c) Do an intake and cam to give you some breathing room, but keep the heads the same.

5d) Intake only, but really, what's the point of that?

Do note, GM Vortec heads require a different intake manifold. Just the heads are cheap, but you need a bit more to be able to run. On the cheap, Vortec heads, Stealth Ram for Vortec, and a bigger bumpstick like the Comp Cams XR276HR...all assuming you don't need to pass smog in some way or another.

World heads need some porting to really shine, so goes the garage talk. The Trickflow heads look good for the street. So do the E-tec 170cc. There are a number of other heads to look into Dart, Brodix, AFR.

BTW, your answer is the typical "I don't really know what I want" answer. You already have more than adequate engine performance for maneuvering the car. You can go into a spinout just by goosing the throttle at the wrong time. Just talk to the CMC guys about that. What's a fast street/track car? Not busting your chops, well maybe, but your answer is vague. Set your goals, there doesn't necessarily need to be a why answer as long as you understand the rammifications...such as with Auto-X, mods could/would bump you up in class making you not competitive, and hence, not having fun.

 

I’m not sure that I know where you’re going with this… Vortec, Fastburn, LT1, LT4… are all outgrowths of the same process and share what makes them uneque from the rest...



“e” question???

For that matter, so what if it smokes on start up? Valve stem seals usually rank somewhere on the “I’ll mess with it the next time I have some other reason to be in there anyway” scale… for the most part they rarely get bad enough to hurt performance.

 

I think you need to go to the track and get a base line of your cars performance. Then do a search on this board for the FREE mods that can be done. These can help with performance now and help with other mods later on. Don't forget to do the maintenance items such as tune up, front end alignment, and change engine trans and rear end fluids to synthetic. On my wife's 89 TA 5.7, I put on Comp Pro Magnum 1.6 roller rockers and gained 3 tenths in the 1/4! Finally got that car into the 14s! Under drive pulleys, K&N cone filter (I think I read the car is a speed density). Lighten it up. Take out the spare tire. Get a 4th Gen aluminum drive shaft. Your stock steel one is junk and takes longer to accelerate up to speed and is dangerous and vibrates at high speeds.

 

I never said they weren't the best production head. And if you want cheap heads, they're great. But they are production. And everyone knows, they don't hold a candle to an aftermarket head.

 

I can’t even name an aftermarket head within $400-500 of the vortecs that can keep up, and I’m not sure that I can come up with an iron one at all that does that would be appropriate for the same application (like the BIG world products, Motown heads are OK but cost much more and are sized to work well on >410ci small blocks, somewhat of a different world there). If you want to compare a set of vortecs to a set of AFR’s that cost 3x as much then great, yea, the AFR’s will beat the vortecs by about ½ as much as the vortecs beat the L98 heads, but I’m not sure that that’s a great performance/$ tradeoff for most people. Your typical TFS, Dart and edelbrock aluminum heads cost 2-2-1/2 times as much and flow the same or slightly more.

Lets face it, box stock, mated up to a good combination the vortec heads (well, with springs/retainers for higher lift cams) are enough for a hp peak of around 450-470hp at roughly 6500rpm and a redline of about 7000rpm on a 350. If you want to wind it higher then you could take advantage of a higher flowing head, but almost no one around here builds a true, >400hp NA small block so I’m not really sure for a reason for a debate.

Lets be honest, for most of the <425hp builds around here a cleaned up set of smog heads or early 80’s 305 heads are sufficient if everything else is well matched.

 

NJ does require emissions inspections. As long as it passes emissions, you can pretty much do whatever you want. The techs at the DMV don't know much about cars anyway, they just do what they were trained to do.

if you fail at the DMV, try a private inspection station. they usually pass most cars.

 

You guys are saying I dont have a goal.... Right now I'm shooting for over 200 rwhp with a single mod. Considering I just purchased the car last week, I'm think this is a good goal start off with. I want a mod that will give me a good increase in horsepower across the RPM range and a mod that will be great for future tinkerings (supercharging, exhaust, etc., etc.) I also want my car to pass inspection. Last time I had an emissions test done on my civic (1-2 years ago) they just put a hose up to my tail pipe, and ran my engine. On new cars, I think they plug into your ecu

As I said before, my seals are toast (which I'd like to fix, even though it isn't an necessity) and someone told me that I'll need new valve springs at 75k (is this correct?) So I figured I'll jump the gun and just put in all new heads.

How many hours of labor will it take the mechanic? What else do I need to buy? Intake is a definate. (not sure which one yet) (springs? lifters? mounting hardware? ecu mods?) Is everyone thumbsuping the vortec heads? If so, which vortecs should I buy?

Someone mentioned something about fine tuning the heads after the install. I'm a bit confused, what do I need to do?

Oh, one more question.... regarding the camshaft. I've been reading the the cam is critical to engine performace and it needs to be tightly matched to my mods. Is this something I want to purchase now or something I want to wait for until after my engine has been more heavily tuned?

Thanks again guys,
Bill

 

Here's a head that I sell a lot of that my head porter also likes.
190cc intake
64cc combustion chambers
2.02/1.60 valves
Straight or angle plug (I suggest angle for plug access with headers)
Early style (pre 87), non-EGR
Bronze Guides cut for .530 seals
Hardened steel seats
Accepts standard or center bolt valve covers
comes assembled with stainless steel valves
Dual springs for up to .700 lift
7 degree retainers
Machined locks
guide plates
3/8 screw-in rocker arm studs
here's the flow
.200 112.5 97
.300 163.3 135.5
.400 209.2 167.9
.500 243.5 176.4
.600 265.2 175.8

Now for the price $875.00
only a little over $300 more than Vortecs!

OH did I mention that these are aluminum!

 

you know what you didn't mention???? who makes them and what they are.

 

If you want a single mod that will net you a decent increase across the rpm range and support future mods: try headers and exhaust.

If you want to know how much a mechanic will charge you, ask a local one-look in the phone book and call a few.

Cam is not the only critical part, but all your mods need to be matched. I urge you to take some time and research exactly what you want and how you want to accomplish it. Free flowing exhaust is really the only mod I'd recommend until you've taken the time to come up with a workable plan instead of picking a part (like heads) and then trying to match future mods to it.

 

ok ok ok, so all you think starting off with heads is a bad idea unless I have an ultimate plan.

Should I just get the valve seal job done now(for at least $700), and end up throwing that cash away when down the road I'm going to have those heads pulled anyway?

I want the blue smoke problem fixed, even though to some people its not a big deal.

Thanks,
Bill

 

$700 just to replace valve stem seals? Ouch!

No, I wouldn't spend that kind of money. But, I'd be doing it myself. Valve covers and spark plugs are all that need to be removed (and, of course, anything that needs to be moved out of the way to get the valve covers off).

Although headers almost always help, the L98 exhaust isn't so bad. So, doing heads first isn't totally out of line. The best, of course, is to do all of the modifications at the same time so that you get the maximum benefit out of each one.

 

Don;t have the cash to do it all at once =(

 

So do you think a 355 with ported iron L98 heads with bigger valves, comp xr282hr, singleplane intake, 750 carb and headers would put out close to 400hp?

 

I would pick just about any other set of OEM SBC heads to waste my time and money on (like I said, the early/mid 80’s 305 heads are much better, as are most 70’s era 350 smog heads), but yea, they’ll work.

With the heads done right, some decent, 1-5/8” headers, good exhaust, good tune, I don’t see why you couldn’t sneak up on 450hp at the crank.

 

They are Renegade. Not as popular as some of the others, but the price is right and the flow numbers speak for themselves.

 

do you care to give some details on these heads or just keep hinting that somethign exists but no real details, where/how to get them...?

 

I'd suggest making friends with a local backyard mechanic....swap meets, car shows, stuff like that...or someone around town. 700 bucks is a waste for that kind of work....although i know a kid who payed 160 to get a thermostat changed on his grand am GT, hahah....

L98 heads arent really comparable to Vortec's, but if you wanna save money, they arent a bad set of heads....I'd suggest possibly checking junkyards for another set of L98's and mess around with em a little bit.

A Carb conversion could be fun too, for horsepower. It isn't impossible to find a good carb used for a low price....I got my Holley 650 for 100 bucks, but the conversion could get pricey...

Also, the NJ car inspection covers emissions and safety, last i checked...but it isn't comparable to California's, hahah...it isnt hard to pass, just keep yer old exhaust equipment and a restrictive cat just in case....my buddy got his '69 nova to pass emission standards as an everyday driver, dunno why, but it isnt an impossibility...

 

They are made by Renegade for the small block chevy.
If you're interested in a set, just PM me or e-mail
katman@everestkc.net
KAT Automotive
913-831-4080

Here's a head that I sell a lot of that my head porter also likes.
190cc intake
64cc combustion chambers
2.02/1.60 valves
Straight or angle plug (I suggest angle for plug access with headers)
Early style (pre 87), non-EGR
Bronze Guides cut for .530 seals
Hardened steel seats
Accepts standard or center bolt valve covers
comes assembled with stainless steel valves
Dual springs for up to .700 lift
7 degree retainers
Machined locks
guide plates
3/8 screw-in rocker arm studs
here's the flow
.200 112.5 97
.300 163.3 135.5
.400 209.2 167.9
.500 243.5 176.4
.600 265.2 175.8

Now for the price $875.00
only a little over $300 more than Vortecs!

OH did I mention that these are aluminum!