What do you guys think, which is best and why? I have a chance to buy another 400sbc, 509 2bolt just in case I may need. Or are we working with dinosours here?

Will there be any new inovations for the sbc or is the trend moving towards the LSX version more. Lately I have been thinking I should just wait a couple of years and the truck 6.0L will be available at the yards and build one of them up. But I have always liked the 400's for power, but they are getting hard to find, dang circle trackers.

Any opinions guys?

 

i jumped to the genIII, and i wont be looking back... ever.

 

What were your reasons?

 

i wanted a reliable daily driver that runs mid 11s and gets over 20MPG on a daily driving basis.

 

I chose not to go with a Gen 3. My reasons being the fascists that run the CA government, and the sillyness of the CARB. It would have been too many hoops to jump through, and in the end I figured it would have cost me more to do it than it would have to not. It can be done, people have, I just figured it would cost too much more than the gas savings.

If it weren't for that, I would be all over the Gen 3.

 

yea, i should note, emissions are not a concern for me.....
my car has no AIR, no cats, no rear O2s, and the 02s didnt have EGR... my evap goes into the atmosphere, and my car is obviously lacking of emissions devices when you open the hood.

 

Sorry to go off the topic kind of...But I'm hopeing you wont mind...Is there a big advantage to run your car without the smog,cat,o2 sensors etc?

 

I ditch anything smog , except for evap, it doesnt hurt anyhting and your just wasting gas without it. ITs actually a good thing to take vapors from your gas and run them into your engine.(I know it requires some working out of issues when retrofitting to thirdgens)

That aside.

If your technical in nature and I'm assuming so, since you posted a comparison, the Gen III just winds,hands down.

From valve angle, to the injector placement, to the phsical construction and weight, it just wins.

It truly is a clean sheet of paper that almost 100% fixes any flaws that were band aided over on the GenI and Gen II.

I mean I love myGenI and the GenII's, but nothing lasts forever and as technology marches on, some things do get replaced.

The older engines, especially GenI's are unlimited and cheaper to make and build, but with millions of Gen III's built every year, its only a matter of time.

Power and efficiency are what people want, its packaged most conveniently in the Gen III's

later
Jeremy

 

One trip to the "Motor Change" referee, he verifies your equipment, puts a bar code on the car, you're done.

Doesn't sound like too many hoops to me.

 

It's the stuff getting up to the Motor Change referee.

Need stock gas tank with sensors, need stock manifolds, need stock cats and stock y-pipe. Cats must be in stock location for an LS1, which means lost ground clearance. No inline fuel pressure regulator that everyone else uses. All mods must be for the LS1 camaro chassis with CARB for a 98-02 Camaro, or whichever car the engine came out of.

The people I know that have done it legally had to raise the car back up to stock height because of the lost clearance. No more lowering springs, even an Eibach Pro-Kit.

 

I am more interested in which engine is a better design as far as performance.

 

Gen 3. hands down.

I know some guys in the 9 sec club looking to get out of SBCs and LT1s and into Gen 3s. The reason, better performance base as noted by 3.8 TransAm. It's also easier to work on, according to them. One works in a shop that gets frequented by LS1s and LS2s. He loves it and hates working on his LT1, even though it's in the low 10s.

 

So between a 400sbc and a 6.0 truck engine, the 6.0 will make more power, be more reliable, and be within reason costwise to rebuild with the 400?

 

i say go with the 400sbc. there are way more parts(heads,cam,intake etc)available for it that will stomp a ls1 easily.

 

If you go to the AFR site and compare their flow #s for the gen1 and LSX heads, that might help you decide.
There are a lot of sites that you can search and find all the data you need... Everything from flow #s for stock heads to billet stroker rotating assys with carillo rods, if that's what you want.
Many LSX builders are building impressive street engines with stock bottom end parts and forged pistons.
The parts are more expensive, but the money you save from being able to use the factory heads makes up for the difference in cost of the other parts.
If you want to, you can adapt the LSX to a 700r4 too.

 

What exactly are you looking for? I know many cam and exhaust LS1s putting out 400rwhp. I know 402ci LS2s going 550+ rwhp with heads and cam.

Reliable? I dunno, the more you push it, the faster things break.

Cheap? No. Gen 3 > SBC for price. IMHO Gen 3 > SBC for performance. Reliability, may still be too early compared to the 30+ years of SBCs for data. I haven't heard of Gen 3s blowing up due to design flaws on the road racing circuit though.

 

I will add:

the Gen III will cost someone an absolute assinine amount if they have to pay to have the work performed for both rebuild and to swap into a thirdgen.

This is still what will nail 75% of the people who try and do the swap.

For hardcore guys or someone knowledgeable on wiring, electrical, mechanicals and so forth it wont matter as we can make or break harness and adapt things to fit and make our own mounts and all the fun stuff.

Gen I, u just yank it and have it rebuilt and shove it back in and your done, no hacking, splicing, cutting or making things fit where they werent originally.

later
Jeremy

 

to answer everything i just read:

no, taking off the smog stuff doesnt really help anything.
however, for an easier, cleaner, cheaper install, i didnt add things i didnt need...


the genIII+ engines beat the SBC in every way, except price.
3 years ago, you could say parts avalilbilty wasnt the same... today, new parts VS new parts, and used OEM vs use OEM, they're about the same.... stay with me on this.
how many people run off the wall heads on SBCs? not many. most stick to the usuals.. for example. AFR, brodix, and of course, GM.
well, theres roughly the same number of parts for LSx series engines now, as there are popular parts for the SBC...
for the last 10 years, the aftermarket has been developing parts for the LS1.. theres a good bit out there now.... if you dont know of them, ask yourself this..... you know theres a billion parts out there for a ford small block... but you dont know where to get them, or whats popular, ect... because you dont study that in depth for engines you dont have.... well, you dont have a LS1 either.



3.8TransAM nailed it on the cost thing.
i do everything myself, and its cheap.. ive now done it in 4 diffrent cars plus mine... ive really gotten the hang of it, and i can do it for less then anyone here could build a equivlent EFI SBC with a T56 behind it...

but, theres ALOT of guys who pay to have stuff done... and of the guys doing it themselves, alot dont know where to go for things... so they'll say... spend $120 on a corvette filter/regulator, or $170+ for a aftermarket regulator...... when you can get the vette filter/regulator for ~$35
or the guys that swap to return style fuel rails because they just dont understand the concept that the ENTIRE line is pressurised.. it doesnt have to "flow" thru it...
two examples of many.

 

To add more fuel to the fire of this controversy...
There's the carbed LS1 conversion.
Some guys bristle at the very idea. But for purposes of simplification, it would be well worth looking into.
EFI enthusaists will present the usual argument, even more adamantly when it comes to the carbed LSx. As if the engine will be ruined by a carb.
But the same thing holds true with the LSx as with the SBC.
If you know carbs, and know how to do jetting and fine tune the thing from top to bottom, the performance will be on par with EFI. And very close in fuel economy.
That's IF you know carbs.

Being a DIYer can save a bundle of money in the swap.
Adapting the LSx to your 700r4 can simplify the swap, and a carb can simplify it further. Especially if your car originally came with a carb.

To reduce the cost, OEM bottom end parts can be used and heads too.

That makes headers the most difficult fabrication project.
I haven't heard of any off the shelf headers for an LSx/thirdgen swap.

If you research everything in detail, you'll find out that there are ways to simplify and reduce the cost without compromising the quality of your job. And you'll have a very powerful, user friendly car, that's easier on gas than the 400 would be.

 

how do LSx engine beat sbc in performance???give me some examples et.??? hp???

LS1 have a long way to go. old SBC are not going away..I would much rather have a SB2,18,15 setup.Even conventional 23* heads are in the 9`s and 8`s NA. What would be the point of swapping a LSx engine.

 

My question is mostly hypothetically for down the road. LS1's are about as common in the JY's as a$$holes on your elbows around here, and I doubt I'd every see one. That leaves the 6.0 for a buildup, and yes I would probably switch it over to a carb w/msd setup.

No particular car it would be going into, just wondering what everyones thoughts were on staying with the sbc or movin onto the GEN III.

 

I think that HP/CI and MPG/HP the LSx shows some clear advantages.

If you want to build a stroker, you'll get more HP/$$ out of the SBC1

The design of the factory LSx heads is superior to even the better aftermarket SBC1 heads in terms of velocity to flow. Which makes them better for a daily driven car.

The race heads for the SBC1 might give you all sorts of power up top, but what about drivability?
I'll confess, I don't know anyone who's run race heads on the street. But for some reason I don't think I'd want to buy gas for a 400ci motor with 230+ cc intake port volume.

If you want to win races and fuel efficiency is not an issue, then the SBC1 would make more sense.

 

I went SBC on my engine. I think it will hold its own.

 

It seems like I remember you mentioned that you were using 18*heads on your engine, Stek.
Is that on your street car?

 

Nope, not me on the 18° heads, I'm worked over AFR 210's. I wanted 18°, but track rules prohibit.

No, my 400 is far from a street engine. Too loud, makes you cry at idle, that story....

 

I feel your pain

 

I'd rather have a 300 HP SBC that pops and rumbles and needs certain maintenance than a 300 HP LSX that purrs like a kitten, costs twice as much, and never needs (much) maintenance.

Now, that's certainly not the goal of everyone, but for me, cost, average "good" performance, and the visceral feel of big old rumblin' bumblin' stumblin' V8 is what matters.

 

why de-tune the LS1 to make only 300? stock they put a tad over that down to the rear wheels, in SAE HP...
id much rather have a 380 RWHP (thats 430ish to you SBC guys) motor that purrs like a kitten, uses less gas, and doesn NEED much maintenance... NO ONE likes setting valvelash before they run to the corner store. no matter how "hardcore" you are.

you want a popping, rubbling engine? stick a larger cam in the LS1, you'll get your mean, nasty sound.. and go over 400 at the rear wheels, SAE hp.

but like i said... the only downside is cost... you stil get that "rumblin' bumblin' stumblin' V8 " and you still get that nasty power feel...

 

Reason I went for a 3rdGen Camaro with the TBI, rather than the Z28 or even later 4thGen Camaro, simplicity.

I've seen cars, including cars from the late 80's early 90's, even domestic ones, that have too much electronics etc etc on them.

Of course one has to eventually tune the TBI with PROM work, but it's still cheaper and easier than some other engines.



Now if it was twin turbo setup uuhhh yeah .. LSx