Going to Atco in a week, and I was wondering if this routing would work out (with surface areas of belt touching the pulley, etc) to free up some power. I was thinking of charging the battery in between runs with a remote charging system, adn scrapping the alternator, power steering, and AC (smog already deleted).

The only problem I forsee, is the crank is touching the belt BIG time..thats about 180 degrees of contact. Would this make the water pump spin insanely fast?

Any ideas? Anyone done this before? What's your guys' take on this?

 

The amount of contact patch between the belt and the pulley has nothing to do with how fast the pulley makes the belt turn.

Needs more water pump pulley contact.

They way I have mine routed is a belt that goes only around the crank pulley and the water pump, and then a seperate belt that goes around the water pump and the alternator. But I'm built for a road course.

 

The way you have that around the water pump pulley, the water pump will probably spin slower because the belt will be slipping over the pulley. Not a good thing.

Either lower the alternator or install an idler so that you have a bigger contact patch around the water pump pulley.

 

How is it that you have two belts on one pulley?


Another thing...the routing I have in the previous picture would mean that the grooved side of the belt would be touching the water pump and tensioner, which are smooth pulleys.

Now, with a routing like this:



The Belt would match each pulley except for the tensioner pulley. Now, would the belt be likely to get thrown if the grooved side touches the smooth tensioner pulley?

Oh, and about the water pump turning too slow...I'm not really too worried about it, since I'll just be doing one run at a time, and the engine will have time to cool while I sit between runs.

 

I use aftermarket pulleys. I have one pulley that is essentially a 6 rib that is for the crank to water pump. On top (in front) of that, I have a second flat V-belt pulley for the alternator - essentially I have 2 pulleys bolted to the water pump.

With your second picture, you would need a reverse rotation water pump (serpentine), better off for the serpy pulley setup.

I would look into a mid mount kit that places the alternator off to the side more if you are doing a V-belt.

 

Okay then, back to the first drawing.

I dont see what you mean with moving the alternator, I wont be running a belt off of that anyhow. I have a serpentine setup btw, not V belt. But back to the original question, will the groove side of the belt contacting the water pump and the tensioner (both smooth pulleys) cause the belt to get thrown? If it wont then I dont see a problem with this setup.

 

If your current is a serp setup, your water pump has to turn counter clockwise. In your first pic the water pump would be going the wrong way.

 

Crap, you are right. Okay then, second picture, will that tensioner throw the belt?

 

Not likely. I've been running my stang like that for over 10 years, no issues.

 

Thank you for that. I'll try it out on Saturday and test it before I get to the track and let you guys know how it goes.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't take the alternator off. It takes almost no force to spin one, also, more voltage=hotter spark. Just my .02.

 

This is what is going on my car with a std rotation water pump.

Jerry

 

Why are you keeping the smog pump on that nice motor you have there, if I may ask?

Also, can you actually move the alternator to replace the AC, or is that a special bracket?

 

I live in a state that has road block smog checks and this motor is for my street car.

It's the factory bracket with one tab cut off and one hole drilled in it. If you need pictures I can take them.

Jerry

 

They set up road blocks to check smog?

 

Really, I could never live in Cali.

 

I would love pics.

 

glad i left cali when I did. AZ is where the maro is registered now. $25/yr and they dont even car if the car has an engine, let alone any smog crap.

Cali is a bunch of BS. I was going back and forth to cali/az and i got pulled over one day. The cop asked why the car wasnt registered in cali. I said, uhh, because I have an AZ license and that is where I live. He told me that if i'm in cali for more than 3 weeks at a time, I have to reg the car in cali. I was like, "but i LIVE in AZ". He said that if he saw my car again in a month and it wasnt regged in cali, it was gonna get impounded. That cop was a dumb ****. That isnt even the law.

Cali sucks a$$. They have special cameras at on ramps now in LA that check for smoggers and take a pic of your plates and mail you a ticket.

 

How is that even remotely possible??

 

there are plenty of news articles about it online. Google it and check it out.

 

That is insane!!

So do they make you pop the hood on the spot? Or do they cram something up your tailpipe (and I mean the car!!).

 

they do it 2 ways, they have roadside sensors on onramps so if you are poluting bad the sniffers will pick it up, and send you a ticket, and sometimes a cop to your door, and cops can pull you over if they want, for no reason, and check your car (pop the hood) and check for tags on all componets.

 

That's absolutely insane.

Anyhow, an update on the belt routing:

I ended up getting a belt that was 43.3 inches long, and I wrapped it around the crank, water pump, and over the tensioner, as it's listed in the first picture.

Started up the car and got a voltage reading of 12v, (which is due to the alternator not being driven for those of you who dont know. I was kind of worried about it going under that, and giving me power loss problems.

Anyhow, I took her for a spin Driving with no powersteering in a RWD car sucks for the record, but I can deal with it for one day at the track. I expected the voltage to go down relatively quickly, but it didn't, it stayed put the whole 5 mintues I was testing it out.

Well, stuffed it in first gear, and stepped on the pedal. Instead of simply spinning the tires like it normally does 100% of the time, it effing ROASTED them. I mean those puppies were screaming. Picks up alot nicer now too. It's amazing what power these accessories drain from your engine.

Initially I thought that the grooved side of the belt would cause it to slip on the water pump, or get thrown off, but it held in there solidly. Engine temp stayed cool like it normally does...all things were in order.

So, just incase any of you guys are interested in that belt routing for a race application, it's good so far. I'll give you a followup after I get back tomorrow. Again, that's a 43.3 inch belt, but a 43-45 should work fine...tensioner still has some room to play. 42" is too small, I had to actually bring that one back and get the bigger one.

I'll post back after tomorrow

_Clark

 

So now instead of needing to find a reason to harass you, they can claim they merely thought your car was polluting. Gotta love politics...

 

I dont know what the path is today, but they are talking about using infared sensors (that were never designed for uncontrolled enviroments. And how do I know that? I know the guy that designed it.) I have yet to see one in use, but they were doing roadside checks that were 'optional'. I dont know that there is anything mandatory in place yet. They've also talked up doing roadside inspections for things like missing cats, etc. but I havent heard boo about that either.

The Mustang in question I have the belt running the smooth water pump pulley, its contacting a little over 1/4 of the pulley and I have never noticed anything weird with the cooling, so its likely not slipping as I tend to abuse the car quite a bit.

Good luck on the runs. Is it going to be hard to swap back to full accessories? If not... back to back with and without??? I'd like to see that.

 

Thank you. No, it takes about 20 seconds to take the short belt off and put on the long one, and visa versa. The longer one has broken in nicely to a perfect size.

Since I couldnt get the charger pack like I wanted to, I will just do two runs with the small belt, a run with the long belt, and two runs with the small belt again.

 

why not just get a set of underdrive pulleys from BBK? Have your cake and eat it too.

You can do other things too like an electric water pump and I think that have electric p/s pumps too. Of course, you'd need your alt to run those, but i think it'd be a nice trade off.

Side note:
In canada (watched a documentery on A&E channel) they have a special police racing task force. If your car looks modified in anyway from stock then it is assumed that you did it for raceing only and you are a street racer and they will own you. Tickets, fines, impounding the car, etc. My thought on that is, "how can you apply that logic to only cars". If a guy has a weight bench and is ripped, does that mean he does it only for street fighting? How about the gun collector, does he only buy guns because he is gonna start a war? Get real. What about the enthusiast that just likes working on cars? Stupid r1c3rs/1d1ots causing things like this to happen to good people.

 

Next time I go to Cali, I'm taking my (emissions exempt) '55 and 5 gallons of LEADED gas with me. Maybe pull the choke when I roll past the sensors so it's runnung super rich too

 

I dunno that an underdrive will help as much. When I still had the V-belt setup I threw the belt messing around one day on the street and it was like someone gave the car a swift kick in the rear. With everything there is compromise though, I think we've all heard the stories of voltage drop and lost power. I was trying to devise an idea to have the car throw the belt at half track

Technically my old rustang is exempt too, maybe I should throw a manual choke on it and drown their sniffers if I ever see one.

 

Well, an update for you guys.

Did the race belt, and it worked nicely. I used it on 5 runs and it didnt get thrown at all. I even had to drive out of Atco to get some more gas which was a 5-10 minute drive and it didnt even drain teh battery.

All in all, there were definately some ponies freed up, so if you want an easy way to get an edge at teh track, run this setup. 43.3 inch (or similar) 6 rib serpentine belt is what you are going to need.

 

Why not get a std rotation water pump, and a set of V-belt pulleys? If you do that, you can use a (IIRC) 36.25" belt around just the waterpump pulley and crank pulley. I have exactly that on my motor on the middle grooves. It works great! The trick to putting it on though, since there is no 'tensioner' pulley, is to loosen off, but not remove, the crank pulley and waterpump pulley, pull the belt over, then tighten the bolts back up. Works like a charm, and its tight, but not overtight.

Its either a 36.25" or 36.5" belt, I cant remember now. I used that because I had a problem with the crank/water pump/alternator belt coming off at high revs at the track, and my car overheating on the way back because no water pump was turning. I used it as a 'just incase' kinda thing. Worked great though!

This is my setup... the belt between just the crank and water pump is on the back waterpump pulley groove and the middle crank pulley groove.