Ok guys, I know some of you know me and have seen my site. If you haven't, please take a minute to check it out.....

I am dropping in a 383 and can't get it to fire up. The hard part about me asking questions, is that there is not a single thing stock on the car. Even the wiing harness is a "painless" unit. So nothing is easily referable.

So I need advice about what to check.....

The car did start for a few seconds a few weeks ago. When I first tried. This is when I was trying to get the timing right. After I think I was close enough I kept trying to start it, but it just wouldn't idle or anything. Then it stopped even sorta turning on even for a second. So this made me more confused.

Now I have a dead optima (i left it hooked up over night and the doors are not on the car) and the car, when jumped from a car that is on, won't even turn over anymore. It just turns like 3 degrees and stops and makes a CLICK CLICK CLICK noise. I am totally lost as to what to do next. I guess I need to go charge the battery, but that is not at the top of my list. THe main thing is to figure out why it will not just idle.

Also I flooded the carb when I had the reglator on wrong, so if that is important, let me know. Also I opened it and shot air through everything just in case,but it did not seem to help.

I also disonected the ignition box, and put the stock chip back in the dizzy and that didn't help either.

I am also trying to turn it over with just a turnover button, the kind that attach to the starter itself, and i can't get it to turn over even when the guage on the interior reads 12.5V before I push it and it drops to nothing when i press it. Where is all the power going?


ANyways, please help if you can. I understand this is a hard thing to help out with since it is all custom in the first place. Thanks in advance.

-Dennis

 

So you are saying it won't even turn over correct?

If your doors are off the car then the doom light and everything will stay on in the interior, could be the reason for your dead battery.

A click click click noise could be your starter. I just had to replace one for a friend with the same problem.....it wouldn't even turn over but it would bump the engine but nothing after that....made a click click click noise. I would say recheck all of the connections(spark plugs gaps, wires, distributor, fuel pump, the obvisious), and check the starter(your starter might be bad) and of course you have a charge battery.

Running rough, could be timing, the carb over fueling the engine, etc....main thing is to get it running then fine tune it. Hope this helps.

 

Sounds like you've got a couple of issues here,but the hard turning situation combined with the fact you floodedit points me to raw fuel standind in the cylinders,causing it to hydro lock.Charge the battery up,pull all the plugs,and spin it over a few times.Probably ought to put fresh plugs in,then after you get fuel pressure correct,float levels properly set,etc.,then starting it up and tuning should go a bit smoother.Just my two pennies on the deal,good luck

 

Thanks guys, I know that the dome light is what killed the battery.

I will pull the plugs again. I did it once and it seemed to help a tinny bit, but I bet there must be fuel stuck in there. I will pull the plugs, and charge the battery and go from there I guess. All I really know how to do to a carb is set the fuel bowl height. The rest of the settings I have not touched out of the box so I am assuming it will at least fire up with those settings. I am also going to set the dizzy back up to stock, with no box.

I have a mallory billet dizzy. there are 4 screws on top that hold the coil onto it, I stripped one of these screws and there is one that is used to make a ground apparently, if this is not doing its job could this be a problem? I don't even know what it is for, and have no idea how to find out. I am so close to just screwing it and buying a new carb, and new dizzy with new plugs. Run out of $, but at least get this damn thing to fire up!!!!

 

unfortunately,buying a new carb will not likely help much.A price you pay at this power level is extensive tuning.My engine is 2 years old,and I'm still finding power in fine tuning.
As far as float levels,I'm sure you've figured it out,but I'll give my version.First off,as I'm sure you know,set fuel pressure with the engine off.(you are still using electric fuel pump,correct?If not,disregard that)
Then,pull sight plugs,and adjust to just below the hole.Now,DO NOT assume this finishes the job,because usually,this needs to be fine tuned.
If your having troubles with it puking fuel,make sure your needle&seat is clean and clear of debris.I'd bet a $20 bill,with a new fuel system,that there's a piece of teflon tape,(which you shouldn't use on fuel systems by the way)or some type of dirt or debri in one or both of your needle&seats.I use spring loaded needle&seats,seems to help a little with the sticking problems Holley and Holley design carbs are known for.
As for extensive tuning,order a good book on Holley carbs,or I think BG has a book out on tuning Demons.Read it cover to cover,front to back.Make it the next holiest book to the Bible.A post on how to tune would leave out at lest 50% of what you need to know,and be 50 pages long.

 

Ok well let me cover a few bases. So that advice can be more beneficial.

-I am running an electric pump, I have set it before I attempted to start the car. It is now set and running at 7psi.

-I am almost sure that the bowls are set right, at laest to get the car up and chuggin'.

-Now this is important, i DID NOT fluch the fuel system before I turned it on the first time. I DID take the whole carb apart and blow compressed air through it at sorta low psi, around 40, but little spirts. I put it all back togeather, and this did not help.

-I did NOT use any teflon tape on the fuel system at all.



What my main concern is the dizzy. Do you guys think the mallory HEI billet distributor is fine for this set up? Or should I spend more than 140 on a dizzy? I am pretty convinced that something is up with it, but I can't figure out what.

I guess that is where I will leave it for now. What dizzy should I get, or can I get this one checked out somehow? THanks again.
----------
Ok well let me cover a few bases. So that advice can be more beneficial.

-I am running an electric pump, I have set it before I attempted to start the car. It is now set and running at 7psi.

-I am almost sure that the bowls are set right, at laest to get the car up and chuggin'.

-Now this is important, i DID NOT fluch the fuel system before I turned it on the first time. I DID take the whole carb apart and blow compressed air through it at sorta low psi, around 40, but little spirts. I put it all back togeather, and this did not help.

-I did NOT use any teflon tape on the fuel system at all.



What my main concern is the dizzy. Do you guys think the mallory HEI billet distributor is fine for this set up? Or should I spend more than 140 on a dizzy? I am pretty convinced that something is up with it, but I can't figure out what.

I guess that is where I will leave it for now. What dizzy should I get, or can I get this one checked out somehow? THanks again.

oh and PS- I do have a holly book that I have read. It just doesn't say anything about initial fire up, just tunning after you have an idle. It is the yellow Holley book that summit sells. My engine builder recomended it.

 

Sounds to me like you need to charge the battery.

Leave all that other stuff alone; ESPECIALLY THE DISTRIBUTOR. Put everything you've changed, back just like it was. Nothing about the distributor or the fuel system will make the battery go dead. Those things are not the problem.

Either charge up the battery you've got, or drop a known good hot one in it. Don't outsmart yourself.

 

Thats the thing, I jumped the terminals under the hood (battery is in trunk) with my dads Aveo while it was running. And the motor still didn't turn over, just moved a few degrees and click click click. This is the main reason I am confused. A few weeks ago I couldn't get it started, but who knows why it didn't start then. Now I just want the damn starter to turn the motor over, with a charged battery or a jump. I am soooo friggiin lost. I can ususally figure this kinda thing out, I have been dealing with crazy issues ever since I started this project....This is not a simple charge the battery and all will be fine. I have bult the car from the ground up over 2.5 years, I would know if it was something so mundane. IF it was the battery, then the jump should have fixed that. This is why I am so confused. Anyone have any idea what I should do next...???????????


I am gonna charge the battery
pull the plugs and let the cylinders air out for a few hours
Re-check my best guess at timing
Re-check my wires, and plugs
I know the fuel system is OK, but I will check it again.

After that I am lost. I just want this damn thig to fire up!!!!

 

Jumping a dead battery, while it's still dead, isn't much use. Think about it.... if the battery in the car isn't supplying any juice, then when you jump it, ALL the electricity to run the starter, has to come from the OTHER car; and that means, it passes through about 15 or 20 feet of some sort of small gauge (jumper cable) wire. If your jumper cables weigh less than about 6 lbs, then they're too small to have any hope of running a starter motor by themselves.

If you'd left the other car hooked up to it and running for a while to charge it, then that would have been a whole lot more useful. That's assuming of course that the battery in the car, is capable of being charged, in the first place. Which might or might not be true.

It might be smart to just go buy a new battery; a cheeep one should do just fine for the exercise at hand; charge it fully; and install it. See what that does.

Your problem is not the timing, not the firing order, not the wires, not the plugs, not the fuel system; it's A DEAD BATTERY. Don't let yourself get frustrated and lose all logic and common sense just because you're in a hurry and all that. Fix the problem you REALLY have, not just mess around with stuff that isn't part of the problem at hand.

Now, once you get the starting system to where it spins the motor, and if the motor still doesn't run, THEN it's time to worry about the rest of that. But for the moment, shut all that out of your mind, and go straight to the problem at hand; which is A DEAD BATTERY. Stay focused.

 

Thanks... I guess I am getting ahead of myself. I have some $ floating around, like a couple hundered bucks. Do you think I should just go to pepboys and pick up a ****ty $90 battery? The one that I keep killing is an Optima red top. I was thinking about getting a yellow top since I dunno how well this one is working anymore, since I have killed it pretty badly a few times.

If that is the case, and there is still time today. I might go buy a battery, just to see if it will fix the problem.

Thanks for the advice. Man this **** gets frustrating sometimes.

 

How about just a ****ty $35 battery at AutoZone or Poop Boys or wherever? No point in killing yourself over it....

 

the battery from an aveo cant turn over a v-8. i tried jumping my bird onetime with my neon and it did nothing. i used my truck and it fired fine. you also lose power through jumper cables id be surprised if you could start a car on cables alone. anyway first things first get the engine to turn(its either cables or starter if you get the battery charged and it still doesnt work). once you get the engine turning you need two things for fire fuel and spark. find out which you dont have. pull the spark plug and see if youve got spark when its cranking. if you dont you got to find out y. if you do it could be timing more than likely not a fuel problem. if you look down the primaries and see fuel squirt than that should start the car. worry about tuning later.

nothing wrong with that hei its the one i use.

 

OK, I will do all those things. Now I am just worried about the dizzy being messed up. I took out the timing chip to hook it up to my mallory box and now I wanna put it back to stock for the first fireup, just in case the box is whats messing me up. What is that goop under the chip? some sort of dielectric lube or something? I assume I should re-appy some more before putting it back in. Also, one of the terminals on the side of the dizzy grounds to one of the screws that go through the coil, mine got a little bent out of shape and I am worried that this might not be touching once I close it back up and install it, and that this bad connection might be causing some problems. Any idea how to make sure this connection is good? Does anyone even know what I am talking about? Thanks you guys.

I will fix the battery problem over the weekend. Then I will have more conclusive results. I am in the middle of my mechanical engieering midterms so I do not have a lot of time to fiddle, that is why I need all the help I can get with this, also I just wanna get her done! hehe. I know I am gonna need to mod the exhaust I made, cuz it is too loud, but whatever that should be fun....I am def rambling, THX Again.

Later
-Dennis

 

Yes, the "goop" is silicone grease, which insures thermal conductivity between the device and the base (to dissipate heat). If the layer is not adequate to contact both the module and base fully, apply more.

 

One stupid thing that you may want to check is if your ground cable is properly connected and the starter does not have fresh paint between it and the block.
If you trigger the ignition and get a spark, go with it and look somewhere else.
You had it started once so just get some battery juice and reset timing to #1 and give it a shot.
Once you foul the plugs wet it is doubtful it will start again. Might try dropping the FP down slightly too. Maybe your pushing over the seats and reflooding it. Should be able to see that with motor off and running the pump just to confirm its not happening.
Take your time, try it. Drink a beer while the battery charges... try it... Beer/Charge... try it
If it still keeps clicking then move the ground cable.

 

My battey is in my trunk, so I have it grounded out the back and under the car. I drilled through a part of the frame where the panhard bar attaches and put a bolt through there. I also grided the area down very well before I did that too, to make sure I would have good contact. As far as I know, it is a good ground. Is there something else I should do to ground? I also have a strap from the aluminum head to the fender (metal braided strap).

I will def charge the battery, and or buy another. Then reset the timing and check the dizzy. Also I will apply more goop.

When I wanna check spark, do I just pull a plug and have someone turn the engine over and see if I see a spark in the plug?....(once the starter can do that with its new battery)

Supprisingly the only thing really bothering me now is the dizzy and the fact that I am not sure what that little ground does on the coil bolt. I fear it is the problem so much that I wanna go buy another one of these dizzys and just not touch it and drop it in.



Man I have so many other questions too.... If anyone knows a lot about the kind of buildup I am doing, can you give me your AIM screen name or something so I can pound out a list of questions I have

 

----------
Dennis
K I S S Keep it simple stu-id.....Sorry didn't mean it that way. Seriously though, as said, either charge the battery up fully overnight or better yet toss a new cheapy in it to get it running. There is no reserve left in your optima and as soon as you need the full 12v to roll it over, it will die. As sofa kingdom said, don't out think yourself. Check for spark...when you can turn it over....... just pull a plug and stick it in the plug wire and ground it to the motor. Have someone turn it over...you should have a strong blue spark. IHI has given you all the info you need.....just put a battery in it and go back and check all your basics. Fuel press. is liveable but I like 6 psi. Set it up again at tdc....stick some budget fresh plugs to get it running..... and you should be ok. I know your frustrated but it isn't rocket science.....you need air, fuel and spark. Check for all and giver! Good luck man......o and I highly agree with the beer suggestion.... Also I would drop the oil and put in fresh stuff. You have dumped alot of fuel in that motor and you don't want to wash the rings out of it.

 

I know I will keep it simple.

I never thought about the oil.... I added some real thick stuff for the first fill up, as well as some real thin stuff, and the rest was organic 10W-30.

Should I dump al that and fill it with just 10W-30 again?

 

I would just run a 5w30 for the initial start up. Then dump it and cut open the filter to check for debris and try a 10w30 or40 weight until you get some miles on her. Then synthetic. You will find a dozen different opinions on "this" subject though...

 

yeah the initial oil thing is nuts.... I went with all kinds of addatives cuz I was scared of ruining the motor. I will change the oil now that it has gone around a bit and put in some normal stuff. Most likely 10W-30 cuz I have some laying around. I will cut the filter and go from there.


As for everything else, I guess I am set for now with motor stuff till I try some of these ideas. THanks again you guys... This car would never get done without all your help.

PS-if any of you have AIM names let me know, maybe it can speed up the helping process. I can acctually help with some stuff. hehe.

Later

-Dennis

 

i think that thing was the ground for the coil. it has to have contact but by checking the spark you will find out. if you've got spark you know its working.

 

right, good idea. I will def keep that in mind before buying another.

 

OK, so I got a new battery. That solved the problem with the engine not turning over. Now that problem is fixed. I re-set the rotor back to make sure it was pointint at the #1 wire. Then I let the cylinders breath for a while by taking out the plugs while I ate lunch. I put them back in exept the #1 plug and grounded it. I noticed I was not getting any spark. The problem was that the wire going to the (+) tab on the dizzy wasn't hooked up. I hooked it up and I got spark and the motor fired a little bit. I put the #1 plug back in and it just turned over and didnt do anything. Same old sound, just turning and no fire.

It must be a fuel problem. Too much or too little. HELP I have no idea what to do.

Hope someone can shed some light on the situation.

Thanks

-Dennis

 

When you reclocked the rotor again did you set it to TDC on the correct stroke?

 

Have someone crank the engine over while you rotate the dizzy back and forth. Might be able to rotate it to a spot where it'll fire up then you can set your timing. Verify you still do have spark first though. If that doesn't work, do a compression check, you may have washed the cylinders with all the fuel being dumped in there. Float levels, you need to know for sure that these are right. Pull the sight plugs, should be just at the bottom of the hole.

 

Dennis
Turn on the fuel pump and verify you have fuel pressure (read your gauge) Then crack the throttle 3-4 times and you shoud see fuel come out of the dischard (squirters) nozzles. If you don't have fuel at the nozzles that is your issue #1. If gas, good. Now ( as evil cartman said) rotate the dizz MAYBE 15* in either direction and see if the starting gets easier or worse. You are looking for a change of some sort. Better or worse. If nothing you may be 180* out with the dizz. This means pulling #1 plug and bumping around till the "0" on your balancer comes up and your finger gets blown off of the #1 plug hole. Re check your rotor to see if its pointing at #1 cyl. Put the plug back in and "giver"! You may need to rotate the dizz 15* either way to get it to lite but you should get it. If the motor (at this time) doesn't even bark I would say your 180* out on the dizz. Pretty common.

 

I am not giving it any shots of fuel when I am trying to start it. Maybe that is the problem. hmmm???? I have just been cranking it.


I am positive I have 7 psi, and I am 90% sure my floats are right. I will try to shoot a couple pumps of fule in there to get her going. I am also almost positive the dizzy is not 180* off.

THanks for all the help. I will get back to you guys about the attempt tomorrow if it is warm enough.

 

FINALLY!!!!!....

OMG Thats what it was, it was the lack of fuel all along!

The timing was of course off, but that was fixed when it poped a little I stoped turning the dizzy.

Then I kept adding gas and BAM, **** turned on then off. If I keep adding gas it stays on. The idle is too lean, the damn thing just needed more gas. I can't believe it. Thank you guys for all your help. I am sooooooooo friggin exited that I got it to stay on. I have a recording on my phone but don't know how to get it off the phone, well I know how, but I don't have the right wire or a mic.


Well sometime soon, I will fix the idle and get all the odds and ends fixed up.

(all the guages work just fine, thank god

I will post back when I have made some more progress.

 

Yeah, helps to have fuel it's not a stocker that'll maybe fire up without touching the throttle. One pump of the pedal in mine will fire it up but die off if I don't keep on the gas for a little bit, no choke on it.

 

yeah, mine has a choke and was closed when I was firing it this time. I am going to turn the idle screws out till they dump enough fuel in to keep it on. Then go from there.

 

OK well as soon as the good times came. THey are gone.

The motor will only start with crazy amounts of gass tossed in, and it will not stay on at all by itself, I have to hold the throttle and it just sounds crazy.

Then after one day of playing with it, it wouldn't start at all the next. I checked the #1 plug and cap to set timing again, and it was way off, So I fixed it (just really wierd that it was so off after the day before it was right on). AAnyways, I fixed that and today I fixed to fuel levels in the bowls. I am trying to play with the 4 corner idle screws, so that they can help supply more fuel and keep the motor on. .....When I tried to turn the car on, just to test my adjustments, the car won't turn over.

I have it hooked up to the battery in the back, and it is being jumped by my moms carolla that is on and running.

Still nothing, it works for a second and then nothing. The starter is making a strange noise after it works for a sec. I go check the power cable going to the starter and it is VERY hot. I disconnect EVERYTHING, exept the starter and try to just get the motor to turn over a little, with a button. Nothing, sae wierd ****. Wire gets super hot right away.


I am lost and really don't wanna have to re-wire the entire car AGAIN. please help.

-Dennis

 

I'm thinking timing is off. How much compression in this motor? If the timing is off it will be a bi--h to turn over especially when hot. Is the starter new? For a base setting on your 4 corner idle curcuit, turn all the screws in all the way then out a turn and a quarter. Then when the car will idle by itself, turn each (primaries first) in or out until the idle is smoothest.

 

yeah I know about the idle screws... the problem is the motor is a beast. This cam is supposed to make 500 HP, so it needs a crap load of fuel, and I don't know what to change to have it stay on, or even come close to idleing.


Right now my main problem is the starter, it is acting crazy. It won't turn over the motor. The compresstion ratio, dynamic is around 9.5 and static is like 10.5. It is a new summit high TQ starter....everything in the motor is new.

please help out if you can anyone.

 

Charge up the battery then pull all the spark plugs out and try to turn the motor over.

 

If you have the battery mounted a good distance away from the starter,how thick is the wire?
Sounds like a major voltage drop there.

 

The wire is HUGE. I used a battery relocation kit. It is installed the corrct way. At least the kit is and the battery. There is def no voltage drop.

I will pull the plugs and check if it turns over this weekend.

 

Dennis, if the wire is getting that hot that quick my thought is you have a ground somewhere (nicked wire touching off the body?) or something isn't hooked up right. The batt cable is seeing alot of amps with little or no resistance hence the heat (electricians correct me if I'm wrong).

 

The heat is a result of too much current and too little copper.
Either the wire is too thin or the starter draws way too much current,since the wiring heats up in seconds.
An electric motor can draw excessive amounts of current if the load on it is too high,is the starter strong enough for your motor?

 

Yeah, I know it seems like there is a ground someplace that souldn't be, but I have checked over and over again. The wire that goes to the battery terminal is also very large. I know it is the right size. I wired the entire car with a painless wiring kit.

Also I know the starter is strong enough for the motor, cuz I have started it a couple times allready. Also it is a summit high TQ starter (new). I wired the starter alone and nothing else, and the battery togeather and it still acted the same.

I would say the starter is toasted, but it does spin the motor for a second, then it eats up all the voltage and makes a strange noise and stops spining the motor. THat is why I am so lost. I am thinking about getting a new starter, not to mention re-wiring the entire car again, but this time with a harness that mounts in the trunk. I think that would make for a cleaner install. But that is appart from the point.
I don't really have any course of action with the current one to see if it is OK.....

Anyone think I should take it off the car and see if it will spin while not installed? Also I guess I will take the plugs out and see if it spins. This thing is really pushing my buttons, But oh well... I guess I better just take it one problem at a time.

 

i dont think you should take it out, its working and when its out you have no load. its hot because of either the engine is too tough to turn or the starter is worn or improperly shimed (causing drag). the motor will draw excessive current when under heavy load(heating the wires). i would try the sparkplugs as stated above. that would reduce the load and see if its the starter. it would also clear the cylinders if you loaded them up with gas.

do you have a good charger? you need to fully charge your battery, like overnight, before you start fooling around with a car that wont start. its not enough to just turn it over slow. a high compression engine will start hard even when running properly.

 

I'd suggest putting the battery back where it belongs, with a pair of factory cables.

That way, you're only trying to work on one problem at a time.

As I've posted before, the most important thing you can do at this point, is MAINTAIN YOUR FOCUS. Trying to psych out 16 interactive problems all at once, with a motor that you don't know yet whether it works or not, in a state of mental frustration and confusion, with the thought of thousands of your dollars at risk weighing on your mind, is a recipe for failure and disaster and expense. Just slow down, calm down, and think it through; and logically and patiently eliminate extra unnecessary variables (like 25 feet of extra battery cable....), until you have a clear and unambiguous diagnosis for whatever it is you're working on at the moment. Running around from one "maybe it's this, maybe it's that, oh good lord what am I going to do" to another, without actually solving anything in the process, is going to pretty much guarantee that your car will continue its existence as an expensive garage decoration for the foreseeable future.

Eliminate as many confounding variables as you can, so you can devote your undivided attention to the remaining variables that really matter.

 

K I S S

 

I know I have to slow down. It all just really sux, since I can't spend time on the car these days, since I am getting ready for finals and stuff.

When I get sometime I will toss the battery up front and see what happens after I pull the plugs.

Oh and I do not have a battery charger. I know I need one.

 

Dennis
Isn't that the second battery you've gone through trying to start that motor? I think you've got a wiring issue (looks like you've rewired the whole car yourself, on your site) that is draining your battery. You haven't even run the motor long enough to drain a fully charged battery even without an alternator.(I know you have one on the car) Do you know how to check for a short? Those batteries should be able to run that motor by themselves. I think you're starting issue (again) is a low voltage battery. Buy yourself a GOOD quality battery charger and charge the battery up overnight before you try again. I wouldn't change anything in your set-up until you solve this voltage drain problem.

 

I am not going to change anything till I solve this problem. I think I am going to go buy a charger though. Any suggestions? Yes this is in fact my second battery, but it is not cuz of a short. It is cuz I left it hooked up over the course of a few days and the dome light and map lights killed it. I charged it a couple times and made the same mistake again. So I started to question the integrity of that optima, so I just went and picked up a stock replacement battery to get the car running. There is no voltage drop. The wire is insalled correctly, It is getting all the volts from the battery to the motor area. I tried just hooking up the battery and the starter, and the same problem happened, and I am positive there is no short. If there was, it wouldn't work at all. But the starter does work, for just a bit. That is what is throwing me off.

 

Take the starter out,open it up and look inside.
ANY sign of contact between rotor and stator is bad.
It could also be an internal short in the coils,but that`s not necessarily visible and you need the proper resistance values and an ohmmeter.