The motor just started and I am changing the oil...My drain plug has a manget on the end and when i pulled it there are metal shavings stuck to the magnet. This is a hyd roller motor and I've never started a fresh motor like this before.

Is this normal???? I can't cut open the filter because I only have a hacksaw but if this is a normal thing I won't worry...

 

No, not particularly normal, but not particularly abnormal either....

What kind of metal? Big pieces, little pieces, flakes, powder? Shiny, dull? Lots of it or just a few? How long did the motor run? Might be a clue as to where it came from, whether it's serious or not, etc. A pic would be helpful as well; taken with the "macro" function of your camera (the "flower/tree" selection... use "flower" mode)

 

Well, the oil had a grey/silver sheen to it. Could have been from the GM EOS I am thinking. It was decent sized pieces, my dumbass didn't snap a pic so I know its tough to help now...
I just started it again and drove the thing. I think I might change the oil one more time to see if there is anymore. The car won't idle and runs like crap but it needs someone that knows their stuff to look at it and it needs to have a chip made for it.

I didn't get anything solid from the used oil, just on the magnet drain plug and probably in the filter.
Is the motor f'ed?

 

happened to me on my first rebuild, between braking in the cam and other new components it is okay. new pushrods rub against guide holes and rockers rub cam rubs... there is alot of metal on metal that "breaks in" the minor imperfections. You didnt use Synthetic oil for the break in did you?

 

could be that the guy that built it didn't clean it thouroughly before assembly. Change the oil/filter again and run it for a couple minutes then do it over. If you're consistently getting noticeable amounts of oil then it's eating itself up and something is wrong.

You have to remember that with a new motor you're going to get some amount of metal in the oil from all those new parts saying "hello" to one another. Without seeing pictures and with your vague description, it's hard to determine which scenario you've got.

 

Yea I know its tough, thanks for the help and input still...I'll be counting on everyone A LOT in these next few days to help me get this thing to idle.

I'm going to change the oil once again since I've driven it a couple miles and see what's up. If I still have metal shavings on the drain plug I'm not going to fire it up again until some1 that knows their stuff can come look at it.

Any tips on getting this thing to idle???

 

idle? Carb of EFI?

 

make sure you dont have your rockers too tight causeing the valves not to seat properly and poor idle i had the same problem

 

It won't idle at anything below 1800. It's EFI...HSR.

I pulled the number 2 plug and its black! For some reason this is running pig rich. there is suit already on the oil pan from the open shorties because of this. Im not running an extreme amount of fuel pressure, but im going to realy knock it back and see what happens...

Among 1000 other things wrong or that need attention I do need to run through the valves I guess and check them. I gave number 1 quick look and the push rods spun just fine when it was at TDC.

Tomorrow I'll change the oil and try to tackle this richness as well.

 

If it's running rich, don't start it back up. You'll wash the rings right out of it. Go over everything and take your time and make sure it's all right. If you need to, put the stock ECM and injectors back in it until you get it broken in properly. Nothing could be worse than running a motor super rich during break in.

 

I've heard that. I actually felt the car run better when it was at like 25 PSI...I just got off the phone with my builder/friend and he said the same thing. Unfortunatly the stock injectors are gone and the ECM/chip is still stock.

Im going to change the oil and check for metal, then back the fuel pressure way down and throw in some new plugs. Hopefully I can get it to idle so I can properly set the timing.

Before any of that tho I have a voltage problem to take care of. The battery hardly sees 12 volts with a 140 amp alt. If the alt checks out okay at Autozone I don't know what could be wrong but before I can start to fix the motor I need to get the voltage right.

Thanks everyone, please keep ideas and suggestions coming...this is my fist build!

 

Before you start the motor up you either need to get the ECM calibrated to the injectors that you've got or get a set of stock injectors to put in there. Hopefully you haven't killed it yet.

 

Motor stats:
383
Trickflows
Comp 230/236 .510/.520 (.544/.555 w/ the 1.6 Pro Mags) 112 LSA
HSR 30# Injectors
Stock 305 TPI chip


^^Got that from your previous thread. If thats still a stock chip with 30# injectors, that a lotta fuel. I got an extra set of 19# injectors I will never use that ran great in my old 86 IROC. Also if it is a 383 with a 305 chip, that may be a problem..

 

I know the 305 chip is a problem but I feel it should run much better than it did with the stock chip in it.

I am really going to cut back on the fuel pressure since I have these 30's...I can't justify buying another set of used stockers because I was nice and gave the person who bought my TPI setup my old ones for free.

I guess I do need to go back to a smaller injector until I can get it tuned, damn I wish I would have kept mine, but spending more money and waiting on a set to be shipped just sucks.

Can I run these 30's without damage if I cut that fuel pressure down a lot? I remeber it idling best at like 25 PSI but I was scared to run it lean...

 

So I guess I need another rebuild....I bought the shortblock from someone assembled and my builder said it looked okay but I bet I washed down the walls and screwed this one.

Here are some pics of my drain plug after the SECOND oil change. The car ran for about 30 minutes then the oil was changed. Started it again and drove it for about 4 miles then shut it off and havn't done anything since...

 

Yea heres the oil. I'm no expert but I think its toast...thousands of dollars later I feel like I need to vomit.

 

Don't get too discouraged just yet...

Does the motor have good oil pressure when hot at idle? If so, the crank & bearings are probably good. IN any case, it would be near impossible to get THAT MUCH iron into the oil from off of the crank, without it making LOTS of noise.

Take a good close look at the distributor gear first.

If that's OK, and it's a flat-tappet cam, it probably has a rolled lobe. I don't recall what you've got. If you've got a roller cam, there are ALOT fewer places it could have come from. Mostly the valve train.

Any possibility this block had been ground on at some time in between its last cleaning and you running it? Is this less, more, or about the same amount of shavings, as was on the plug the first time?

 

Thanks for the help again, I'm seriously lost with this and sick to my stomach at the monent.

As I recall the oil pressure was fine...when warmed it was sitting about 30 (but this was at 1800-2000 RPM's since it wouldn't idle any lower) and when it was given gas it went up to 45 (ballpark).

The block hasn't been touched that I know of besides when it was machined and clearance for the stroker crank.

The shavings on the drain plug are a little less than when it was changed the first time and the oil looks less concentrated with the silver sheen (i mixed up the oil to take that pic, when it settles it looks like dirty oil). The first run it had the GM EOS in it and nothing but straight 30wt oil the second time. I am running a hyd roller cam, no flat tappets here.

I guess I'll pull a valve cover and the dizzy but I don't know exaclty what I'm looking for besides noticable wear.

thanks again, it is MUCH appreciated.

 

I'd do a compression test. That will tell ya if you washed out some cylinders.

 

Washing down cyls won't produce metal shavings like that; and it probably won't show up in a compression test. Most often it takes a significant amount of time of rich running to damage them. I'd set that possibility aside for the time being.

On the dist gear, the thing to look for would be excessive obvious wear.

The oil pressure doesn't sound too bad, depending on what pump you've got.

Put some more appropriate size injectors in it; 22# or 24# would be about right. Should put you within FPR adjustment range. For the time being, smaller than ideal injectors and high fuel pressure, is better than larger injectors and low FP. Then run it for a while, take it out for a test drive maybe, then check the oil again.

With any luck, it's left-over dust from grinding for clearance. If it's anything worse, whatever it is, is trashed already; so a REASONABLE amount of use and wear isn't going to hurt much of anything. I wouldn't abuse it just yet or drive it til it grenades; but I wouldn't just tear into it yet, either.

 

My compression tester is broken too i think...it wont hold pressure but will leak when the cranking stops. I tightened the valve and still nothing.

The dizzy gear looks alright but there was some metal shavings in the drivers head puddled up in a part where it doesnt drain very well. Im guessing this was just from it being in the oil and settling there, nothing looked out of the ordinary and I couldn't see any wear.

 

My pump is a Melling M55A SB-Chevy Z28 H.O. Oil Pump. I know the oil pressure gauge pegged at 60 PSI when the car was started so I had oil pressure but that also meant unfiltered oil got back into the motor because I didn't plug the bypass.

Im pretty sure the motor was clean from the grinding. I bathed it in oil a couple times when it was on the stand before I took it to my builder if that helps any.

So this is defenitly an unusually large amount of metal in a fresh roller motor??

Also, is it safe to back the fuel pressure way down and start it with these injectors or should I get stockers to be on the very safe side? (would 19# injectors be okay?)

 

Yeah, that's more than there ought to be. There shouldn't really be ANY at all.

Another thing it occurs to me that you might want to check, is the timing may be chain rubbing on the front of the block, which will of course shed metal into the oil, without really doing any tragic damage besides whatever the shavings themselves do. Some timing sets will rub on some blocks.

As far as the injectors, think of taking a giant hole and putting low pressure behind it, as compared to a small hole with high pressure. The first scenario, the fluid will just sort of drip; the second, it will spray pretty good.

I'd aim for getting the right injectors in there. IMO 19# is too small, about as bad off as what you've got now except the other way. Try to run down some FMS 24#. Those should be about right.

 

WHOA! Yea something is wrong...

I pulled the drivers valve cover and it looked alright at first. The drivers head has a coating of white all over it and on the underside of the valve cover. The oil sitting in the head is milky (from the white substance...) I thought this was okay then I pulled the pass valve cover for the hell of it.

The pass. head looked clean, much cleaner than the other so that worried me then I looked closer and saw a valve lash cap sitting in the head just hanging out!!!

Turns out cylinder 2's Intake valve lash cap somehow fell off the tip of the valve and was sitting in the head for who knows how long.

what now???

 

TTT I really need some help/advise. Gotta fix the lash cap now and I guess run through the valves again MYSELF.

Should I bother buying new injectors and then try to start it and get the fuel pressure right or just drop the pressure and start it with the 30's?

 

....weird and off topic but I just recieved an email stating Brutalform replied to this with this reply but I don't see it on the actual site?!?!?
"camarosRus, that oil is fine. Every engine I first fired looked like that, even my current one. Its been down the track, I dont know how many times in the last 2-3 years, and it goes faster every time. Change the oil and filter, drive for 500 miles, change again, and let er rip."

Well, if the oil is fine what about the solid metal shavings on the drain plug? If thats okay I'll pour some fresh oil in each head and let it immediatly drain out to try an get anything left in there. Ill probably change the oil right after I shut it off the next time it starts and if I still have solid metal in the plug I'm giving up.
Now, I need to get injectors and set the fuel pressure so I can get it to idle and then set the timing right (then move to tune the IAC and TPS etc).
Hopefully my Optima is shot and thats the cause of my horrible voltage problem but who knows...

 

Well, I dont know about the valve lash cap, but from what i can see in the pictures, the metal in there doesnt look that terribly bad. It looks like the oil that comes out of our race motors after they have been built...slight sparkle to them, little bit of shavings on the plug magnet, etc. I would get some miles on it first and change it out and see where youre at. That is of course after you get that valve lash issue dealt with...

 

well, thanks for the possibly good news

If you can't tell by my posts and quick replies I've been hovering over the computer researching and asking questions all day long. Im pretty worried to say the least.

If a new battery fixes my voltage that good news, if i can get the lash cap on and set the lash myself right thats better news, if i can get the fuel pressure right and keep it from running rich its amazing news, and if i can get the timing righ and get it to idle thats the best news possible.
I just dont know if i want to wait on smaller injectors or try to get it running with these to get some more time on the motor and see what that oil is doing. id hate to spend more money on injectors in the thing is trash.

 

Well, on a new motor, as crappy as this is, you need to be close to proper running condition right away. Running rich, lean, too high/low RPMs isnt as big of a deal after break in. Try and get your fuel pressure set and valve lash stuff taken care of. Time it close as you can to proper and drive it then. The fuel and timing are probably most important to get close here first before you put too many miles on it. My car has a fresh rebuild on the motor and Ive been dying to drive it, but have been waiting for some misc crap now for like 3 weeks so it will run right before I put the miles on. Its killing me, but I think its best in the long run to wait for it...anyway, good luck with it and let us know where youre at as you progress.

 

Ill keep eveyone updated, Ill have plenty more questions im sure!

The lash was supposed to be good but since this lash cap came off im begining to worry...i set the fuel pressure where i thought it would be good but apparently it was WAY too rich with these injectors and the timing i got as close as i could before it started (little advance) but cant get it real close because it wont idle

now im afraid to start it again even if i get the fuel pressure right because of this metal but, i guess ill have to. i think ill kick down the fuel pressure and stick with the 30# injectors to at least try and start it to get the timing closer. Hopefully the next time i change the oil with it running a little more proper it wont have solid flakes stuck to the drain plug magnet...

thanks again everyone, i defenitly couldn't do this without you!

 

If you buy a prom adapter off craig moates, I'll mail you a chip with the propper injector constant programmed in. You're still gonna need to spend some time on the VE. I had that cam for a little while, and it's rough. Idles around 800rpm at 11hg.

30# injectors sound just fine for your setup. A majority of the folks who post on here have not had the building or tuning experience with different combo's as some of us have. I guess it's easier to talk about engines and tuning, than it is to actually build them when you have no money.

-- Joe

 

I'll do what I need to do to get this thing to run okay...I hope the metal in it doesn't mean the motor is toast though.

I did a lot of reasearch and asking around before I bought the 30's and thats the reason I went with them. There are many people running around with HSR's and similar heads/cam combos running them just fine but I'm far (very far) from anything called an expert.

For reference the cam I am running is a custom Comp grind, originally designed for LT1 applications.
Grind# LT1 3315/3316 HR 112
.510/.520
281/288 duration at .006 lift
230/236 @ .050
112 lobe seperation

So in everyones opinions Should I start the motor without getting new injectors or the chip or wait until I get either injectors or the chip?

 

I'd wait.

Nothing to gain by running it with a bad tune, lots to lose.

It's basically impossible for a lash cap to come off. Something has to be out of whack for that to happen. Specifically, there has to be some way for there to be ALOT of lash, for the cap to have enough room to come out. Can't happen if everything is in order. I'd be looking around for clues. Like, put it back together, adjust the lash, and turn the motor over several times by hand, and see if there's anything weird going on with that valve.

 

Not that custom of a cam.


Anyway, I'd hold off until you get the right chip in there for at least idle. I'd idle it for 20 minutes, and when its nice and hot set valve lash again. what are you using for lifters?

-- Joe

 

I'm using Comp's 850-16 lifters. I know the cam isn't THAT custom but its custom to me

Well I guess I'll get that lash cap back on and run through the valves then turn it over and see if I can notice anything bad going on.

I guess I'm waiting on my next step then...new chip? I won't fire it until I have it correct. :talking to myself: I hope this metal goes away, I hope this metal goes away, I hope this metal goes away...

 

You're using a dizzy for a roller cam right? I think that was asked allready.

Anyway. Like I said. I'll mail you a prom if you get the memcal adapter..

-- Joe

 

I'm pretty sure its the correct dizzy...MSD 8336 (IIRC) and it plugged into my factory harness just fine!
I did pull it out and look at it, can't see any wear on the dizzy gear.

 

Joe I'll be ordering an adapter from Craig today. I sent you a PM and you can respond to that with whatever you will need from me.
I think I'm correct in ordering the G1 Memory Adapter...

Would it be worth my while to get a ZIF as well? I don't plan to be removing the chip a ton (unless the tuning bug bites me, which I can then order one I guess) but I don't want to mess anything up.
With the adapter it looks like I just pull the old chip out (I just went and pulled my ECM to practice), put in the adapter where the stock chip used to sit, and put in the new chip onto the adapter??

 

You should get a zif for now. Once you get the chip, you're gonna need to drive around with datamaster and log everything. get a good half hour or so of driving in (closed loop), and we can touch up your ve a bit.

-- Joe

 

damn, I just bought the adapter...no ZIF. I can;t find a number to call them so I am emailing them as we speak, hopefully they can add it on.

Im looking at the s4 ZIF even though it isnt as durable I want to be able to put the cover back over everything...

 

Yeah the mini one is fine. mine took about 400 swaps before it finally broke. heh.

I use an ostrich now so I don't even have a zif, and I havn't used my prom burner in a year.

-- Joe

 

I think 400 will do me just fine! I have a feeling the tuning bug is starting to bite...so much info though its hard to take in even the basics in one day.

As far as the datamaster...I don't have one or have access to one (I don't think) but I'm searching the boards now. Where can I get my hands on one?

 

Get one of these:

eBay Motors: ALDL TPI TBI GM OBD1 ECM DIAGNOSTIC CABLE (item 8066621040 end time May-21-06 01:44:35 PDT)

and download this:

http://www.ttspowersystems.com/softw...D/setup-8D.exe

You can use it free for 20 scans.

And of course you'll need a laptop..

-- Joe

 

yea i found out the laptop thing...newbie

just have to find a laptop now...

 

It's one of those things where.. If you modify it, you gotta support it.

GM probably spent months or more engineering the tune for your stock car, and people think it's no big deal adding cams and heads and other things.

But look on the bright side, you're learning how to do it the right way.

-- Joe

 

Very true...I never thought I'd get into tuning. Just take it to a dyno and let them have at it but that might change...

 

Well possibly bad news and maybe a source of some of the metal...

The Valve Lash Cap that fell off did a little damage. The rocker is nicked up a little and the retairner is scratched. I don't think this was from them hitting eachother but I'm not 100% sure.

Anyone see a problem with any of this? Or is it safe to throw them back on, set my lash and start the car up (after a tune of course )??

 

pics of the damage can be found at the bottom of this thread...uploads aren't working for me at the moment...https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...alve-lash.html

 

TTT...always looking for other opinions on the metal in the motor or that lash cap coming off...

 

Just a quick question, aren't you supposed to run a bronze gear with that cam!?