Hey guys,

I've got a ZZ430 with Ram-Port TPI from S&P, all bolted into an '88 Fiero GT. Forget about the Fiero part, I don't think it has anything to do with this problem.

I haven't driven it much for a couple years due to programming issues I can't seem to get sorted out, but I've been trying to get it out more recently despite that. It's started doing something it never has before and unfortunately it has caught me off guard twice now, and I don't trust it anymore. If I get it good and hot, then shut it off and try to start it after more than 10 minutes or less than about 3 hours, it won't start, it just cranks. The first time it happened, I thought I fixed it by removing my Moates custom PROM and putting the original S&P CALPAK back in. Apparently I was delusional at the time, because it did it to me again today with the CALPAK I thought worked, and stranded me for three hours before it started.

During those three hours, I checked the connections on the IAC, TPS, OAT, injectors, plug wires, distributor, coil, and oil pressure sensors. All were okay. I then removed the distributor cap and cleaned the white oxidation off each of the contacts, quite a lot of which had accumulated. I also tried pulling the plugs out of the ECM (8262) for a few minutes to reset it, all to no avail.

My current laptop doesn't have a serial port, and the cable I have to hook into the ECM is serial, so I haven't been able to do any diags in almost two years - but I don't think that would do any good anyway for this problem since the car's gotta be running first.

Any suggestions on what to check? I'm not getting any codes from the ECM.

Thanks,
Dave

 

first off i'm on the southside, and i'd love to check this car out sometime.

secondly sounds like the ignition module in the dizzy is going bad. anyway you can check that spark isn't present during these "hot" conditions?

~Steve

 

I'm not in Chicago anymore, I've moved out to the west coast. I had the car out a lot at cruise nights (B&I, Streets) in 2003 and 2004 but those days are behind me now.

 

Just use a USB->serial adapter cable. I can't see why that wouldn't work.

lemme brainstorm here...
heat soaked starter - that wouldn't let it crank quickly after running. Yours cranks, so it's probably not this.

If it'll crank but not fire, either no fuel or no spark. You've reset all the computer stuff during this time, so it should "reboot", so that it thinks it's a cold motor, and start fine. This *may* take the computer out of the equation, althought i'm always leery about trusting anything electronic.

Fuel... hmm, vapor lock? Headers close to fuel lines? I can only imagine how cramped a fieros engine bay would be with a 430CID in it.

 

The ignition module sounds good to me too...

 

I'm with Sonix, sounds like a possible vapor lock.

 

I didn't think you could get vapor lock w/ 40 pounds of fuel pressure running thru your lines......

I am having an issue of similar description, mine will start but lugs -n- chugs in the low rpm range after 30 minutes of high-heat driving, always after shutting the engine off.

Eric

 

I didn't see what his fuel pressure was, and with a good enough restriction the pressure could drop to where hot fuel could vaporize.

 

Boss 355 nailed it, I have an FP gage on the fuel rail and it sits at around 40psi after shutoff and holds it well. The fuel pump is a high-volume GNX unit that's easily loud enough to hear energize, and it does. I don't think it's a fuel problem.

BTW, ZZ430=350ci 430hp/430fp

2002 ZZ430 V8 Fiero GT

 

I know about those, the problem is that they cost as much as a USB -> ALDL cable costs, so it's a stalemate!!

The engine bay isn't cramped at all, it's actually very roomy. See the link above for photos. The fuel lines don't run near the exhaust.

 

They are pretty reasonable at cableclub.

Cableclub.com USB to Serial Converter Cable

 

Sorry to go off topic, but that car is really cool. I had an 84 4-cyl w/ 4spd. It was sucha fun car to drive and I had to beat the chics off with a stick. The biggest problem back then was a cooling issue and a slight ***-end heavyness in sharp turns. Crazyd, how have you been able to overcome those issues I used to have?

Great car dude!

 

First to address your problem..... Check the spark. No, not when it's cold and running good. Go out and try to make the problem happen intentionally. When it happens again pull a plug wire (or the coil wire) and see if you get a spark while you crank it. If there is none or it's weak and orange in color, you've got problems with the coil or ign, module. Not at all uncommon for ignition stuff to work fine when cold, but poop out when hot. Ditto the pickup inside the computer controlled distributor. This board is filled with stories from guys with hot-start problems that went back to a flaky ignition part. Heat is the enemy of electronics and your mid-engine car is like putting the electronics in an easy-bake oven, especially with a motor that makes literally 4X as much power as the original 2.8 V6.

On another note..... I love the car. My brother fools around with Fieros all the time and 88s are his favorite (the good Lotus suspension layout vs. the earlier cars that were cobbled together from the GM parts bin). He's got one with a 3.4L Twin Dual Cam V6 out of a Lumina Z-34 in it. Same engine family as the original 2.8, so it bolts to the stock 5-speed and is probably about as easy to install as a V8. Somehow, a motor with a 7400 redline fits the personality of the Fiero quite nicely, especially when you're only using 2 cats and 2 resonator tips for an exhaust system. It sounds like an Indy car. He's autocrossed it and beaten 800HP Vipers several times (what it was really built for) as well as done circle track, road race and even drag racing. Currently it runs mid 13s on motor (he put it on a severe weight loss program) and cracks 12s on a little 55 shot, if he can get the stock 9.5" clutch to hang on! It's a VERY fun car both at the track and on the street.

 

Thanks guys. It's easy to swap ignition parts on this motor with it turned sideways, so I might just drive to the parts store and not leave until the problem is solved, if you know what I mean.

 

Quick recap, I replaced the ignition module last weekend, took all of about 5 minutes, and the problem seems to be solved. I say "seems" because the hot days of summer in Seattle are all but gone, but it hasn't happened again and other hot-running behavior problems have disappeared too. I also got a USB serial adapter and am Datamastering again. Thanks for all the advice and compliments.

 

Damon, the 3.4 TDC in a Fiero is a great combo. I have a friend in Wisconsin who has one, and he let me drive it at the Dells last year. It seems to wind forever - you almost feel guilty letting it go so long without shifting. I almost did one in my "other" '88 GT which has a Camaro 3.4 in it - I bought and rebuilt a '95 TDC for it and everything, but since the current engine still won't die I haven't been able to bring myself to tear apart a fully running car with nothing wrong with it (and sacrificing a/c to the power gods). I ended up putting that engine into one of my other cars, a '92 GTP 5-speed that desperately needed it due to a menacing rod-knock, and abandoning the Fiero TDC project for my relocation out west. When the Camaro 3.4 finally dies in another couple years, that car's definitely getting a TDC, it makes for a really fun car. But it's nowhere near the brutal, overwhelming thrust of the ZZ430 car, which can strike terror into even the most seasoned driver - followed by riotous, uncontrolled laughter and frequent repetition of either "Oh my god!", "Holy $hit!", or some combination of the two. As Ferris Bueller once said, "If you have the means, I highly recommend it."

 

It's not off-topic at all really, it's my thread and I'll do what I want with it.

The 1988 Fiero is a completely different animal from the 1984. The rear suspension is a tri-link rear strut attached to a reengineered cradle and strut tower. The front suspension cradle and control arms were also redesigned. The handling is much more precise and the bump-steer present in the early cars was eliminated. My car has been upgraded with polyurethane bushings throughout the front and rear suspension to control small alignment changes observed with all the torque of the new engine on the OEM rubber, but otherwise uses factory or OEM-spec replacement components.

Alignment was recalibrated for the new suspension in '88 and incorporates greater negative camber (as much as 1.5 degrees in the rear, 0.5 degrees in front) with nearly six degrees of caster for improved steering response. New brakes were part of the deal with aluminum calipers and 10.5" vented rotors, which I have upgraded to 12" from a C4 Corvette.

As far as cooling, my car has been upgraded with a four-core radiator and rerouted exhaust plumbing that is exposed to more cool air from the bottom of the car. Engine compartment temps are significantly reduced and the engine's nominal temperature is the same as what you would see in any other F or Y body TPI application.

 

SPEAKING OF FIEROS I ALMOST MET MY END TODAYIN MY 1985 FIERO GT. IT HAD BEEN RAINING ALL NITE AND I HAD TO GO TO SCHOOL I WAS GOING OUT OF A TURN AND A CAR WAS COMING INTO IT AND HE CAME ON OVER TO MUCH I HAD TO HIT THE BRAKES SO I WENT SLIDING INFRONT OF HIM IN TO THE DITCH ALMOST FLIPPED OVER. BUT IT WAS OK AND ALMOST NO DAMAGE STUPIED GUY THE OFFICE DID NOT GVIE HIM A TICKET BECAUSE OF THE CONDITIONS

 

Yeah, I've driven V8 Fieros before (including ones with 4.9L Caddy all-aluminum V8s in them)- they're vicious, especially if you put the car on a diet. My brother's done them before, too. His current Fiero with the TDC is just the one I really like for exactly the reason you describe- the high winding ability of the TDC motor really just "fits" the Fiero's personality. And it actually weighs less than the factory 2.8. They should have built something like this from the factory, except they didn't have any 4-valve TDC motors back in the mid 80s. Pity.

It's fun to run high 12s on a little 55 shot from any stoplight in the country. Plenty fast to scare guys in new Mustangs and stuff. He plans to turbocharge or supercharge it in the next year and do some more drag racing with it. Personally, I think it makes for a lousy drag package and the car is much better suited to racing that involves turns, especially autocrossing.

 

Funny you mention it, actually they did, and they would've. It was to be in the next generation Fiero GT that never made it to production. In the same way the Corvette survived certain death in 1955 when the Thunderbird was introduced, if the Miata had only come out one year earlier than when it debuted in 1989, the Fiero would have survived. Pontiac's youthful and clueless general manager terminated the Fiero in 1988 stating that the market for budget-priced 2-seat sportscars had dried up in America, which Mazda embarrassingly proved wrong the following year. They could've and should've built it anyway. The beautiful 1990 GT prototype has a 3.2 liter DOHC engine estimated to produce 180hp under its twin decklids. I snapped these photos of it last fall when it was on display at Fierorama in Oakbrook, IL. Yes, you do see some similarities to the 4th generation Camaro in its design. John Schinella loved the design too much to relegate it entirely to the dustbin of GM history.

 

I chased a no start intermitinant start on my daughters fiero for day's only to find a crappy 12v to comp. connection from the battery. Check the small wire conection and see if it's corroded on the pos. post of the battery.

 

Wow- that's almost exactly what it looks like when you stuff a 3.4 TDC motor into a Fiero! It's loads of fun changing the front 3 spark plugs.