Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Im trying to set my rockers but cant turn the crank but to a certain point...how can I do it...I dont want to use the crank bolt in fear I may strip it out. Ive got the AFR rev kit installed and that probably makes it harder to turn the crank.

any ideas?

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

Did you add new heads, mill the ones you had, install different valves, or something?

Honestly, unless there's something unusual that you haven't told us, I don't think that you have anything to worry about. Before this summer, my GTA sat for three years before I got it back on the road.

All I did to bring it out of it's slumber was to pull all of the spark plugs, put a little bit of motor oil in each cylinder, & turn it over a couple of times by hand - using a socket on the bolt on the crank pulley. Then reassembled & fired it up. Never had a hint of a problem with it!

If you're really worried about it, just do what I did. Heck, just pulling the plugs will make it a lot easier to turn over, & should lessen your worries about stripping it out... Good luck!

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

this is a new motor, Im at the point to where I want to set my rocker lash.
I was at TDC #1 and want to turn the crank to TDC #6 so I could set the other rockers but once I get to a certain point the crank becomes WAY to hard to turn and I dont want to use the bolt to turn it. It turned freely but see now I have the valves that I have already set opening and closing making it harder to turn.

heres where Im at.

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

Nice pic, that makes me want to get everything for my 383 even quicker! And that block color would look pretty good in my car I think...

OK, enough drooling. When I ask this, keep in mind that I'm not trying to be insulting, but I've learned in life that (generally speaking) it really pays to ask the dumb/stupid/obvious questions - so here goes:

Have you checked (and dbl-checked (and triple-checked)) piston-to-valve clearance??

Like I said, not trying to be a smart-@ss, just trying to cover all the bases.

If so, and if you've got plenty of room there, it might be helpful to try turning the crank using a beam-style torque wrench & seeing how much torque it takes to turn it. If memory serves, an average engine shouldn't take more than about 20, maybe 25 ft-lbs to turn over... (Anyone else want to chime in on that number??)

Got to get to other things now, but I'll check this thread tomorrow. Good luck!

rgarcia63

What are you setting the lash to?

Comp788

I agree with what V8 Rumble said. Sounds as if you better check and double check piston to valve clearance.

One thing you can do is remove all of the pushrods except for the one cylinder that you adjusting. If it turns free go to the next cyl.

You have not given that much information to figure it out too good. Hyd or solid cam? Lash that you are setting it too? Cam size? Did the motor turn over with no push rods installed? Check head to piston clearance?

I'll also check back tomorrow and hope you get it figured out.

You can always PM me if you have an exact question.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

HOLY CRAP!!!...no I didnt check valve to piston clearance at all! Just bolted the heads down. SOB!! Im new at this building an engine! I didnt do the short block though...thank god!

Please dont tell me thats what it is! I do not want to take the heads off

why would the pistons be hitting the valves?

zero decked block, flat top pistons, 226/232 HR, and my 195 AFR's 65cc
lash Im setting to? hell I dont know..Im just following a thread I read on here. YEs the block turned over fine before I started doing the rockers.

CRAP!!!!!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I highly, HIGHLY doubt you're seeing piston to valve clearance with that cam.

Worth checking, but if it was me, i'd run it over by hand a few times then feel safe. Or tighten a rocker overly tight, to force the valve open to higher lift and more duration, then roll it over, if it's fine, then you're ok.

You're right, with aftermarket valve springs alone, it can feel pretty daunting to turn the motor over with 70+ ftlbs torque through that one bolt.

Use a crank turning socket, $20 from summit or moroso I think. Nice little AL socket with a 1/2" drive, goes over your crank snout. Only works if you don't have your balancer on yet, so you can use it now.

Another one, if you have the balancer on, is one that bolts onto the 3 holes in the balancer. Nice thing is you can use it once the motors in the car too.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Aftermarket springs.600 and the rev kit which adds more pressure to the springs, right?..well I mean the lifters which would make it harder to turn over?

when I talked with AFR ordering my heads...they asked about the block, pistons and such and said the "quench" was fine. or whatever you call it. Doesnt that do with V/P clearance?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

uh yea, quench will effect P/V clearance. But if you have a .030 or a .060" quench you can still have .1" P/N clearance.
P/V clearance usually comes into effect with larger than 250 @.050" duration cams with over .650" lift and a 0 decked block with .035" quench sorta thing. Like we're talking flat out race applications. Or weirdo pop up pistons or REALLY small chamber heads.

You can pop off your heads and check it with playdoh, or do like I said, overadjust your rockers such that your valve is held open ~.050" or so when it should be closed, then roll it over a full rotation. If you hit something and can't go on, there's an issue. If not, then you will have .050" clearance at least, so you'll be fine.

rgarcia63

What head gasket did you use?

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

felpro 1003 as recommended by AFR I think they are .041

rgarcia63

If you have a P/V clearance issue it should be on all cylinders, if only on one cylinder I'd be worried about quality control on my parts.
Might something have falling into a cylinder during the head install?

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Im almost 100% sure that nothing fell into the cylinders while mounting the heads....Im going to order the crank turning shocket right now and try that first before anything. I just dont remember the crank being that hard to turn...damn, I hope I dont have a major problem...this has turned into a nightmare!....and is putting me in the poor house...Im getting close to 7 grand on this thing!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Make sure you have the timing set installed properly. If off, you could be hitting valves w/pistons.

Did you loosen the rockers and try to turn it again?

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Yes TDC is dead nuts!...I have another thread of the problems I had doing that but that was taken care of.

Ok....I loosen all the rocker to make double sure everything turned smoothly and it did.

I then made sure I was at #1 TDC...both dots at 12..that should be firing #1

I then lashed to rockers on just #1 to the best of what I have read to do..Ive been using a .014 feeler gauge...as far as resistence..I have no clue how much is to much or not enough

I went to roll the engine over and STOP!!!!...I started cussing and figured I had P/V problems...so I just loosen the intake nut and rolled the motor over...TURNED FINE...Ok so I loosen the Exhaust nut and did the Intake nut to what I THOUGHT was right.....I rolled the motor over and ..STOP!!!!..and I was like ..THERE"S NO WAY I dropped something in there cause I remember so clearly.....

So I read the post again to where it said that if it did it on one it would do it on all...so I went the next and did the same thing..the motor rolled over FINE!...I was like theres just no way!

SO I did all the rockers except for #1..I LEFT BOTH I/E ROCKERS OFF.

I then rolled the motor over and prayed...turned over JUST FINE!.

ok so I did the exhaust rocker and checked again..rolled FINE!..Then I went to do the INTAKE rocker and when I would put the feeler gauge in to check the resistence was SO FREAKIN TIGHT...so I backed it off...

You know well maybe it not always like that but most of the time all the nuts will be just about in the same place...well not on #1 exhaust

on all my nuts the poly locks are in the same place..on Exhaust #1 I had to back it way off from the others...and checked and rolled the motor over and it rolled just FINE!

I then checked to make sure that nut wasnt shorter then any of the others and checked to make sure the poly lock wasnt a different size either...EVERYTHING is the same size.

So is this possible that one is just different like that?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Are the tops of all the studs the same? Ie, one isn't taller? Lay a ruler across to make sure. That's pretty weird, but I didn't really pay any attention to where my rocker nuts ended up, 0 lash and half a turn was all I cared about...

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

yeah I checked that too. all the same..

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

hmm,

Only thing that comes to mind is the valve is taller. Has a lash cap and the rest don't? The exhaust valve seat was cut abnormally low compared to the rest?

rgarcia63

You are now doing quality control, if the quality is good all the poly locks would be like you said in about the same place so, saying that, "EVERYTHING is the same size," can't be true.
IMO one or more parts are out of spec.

As a quick check swap all the parts from the intake to the exhaust if the problem moves to the intake then the problem is in the parts, if the problem stays on the exhaust then it something you're overlooking.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

I'll check that tomorrow..its to freakin cold out in the garage and its late..what if its the spring? one being shorter than the other? but then again what if they are both the same and if I when I switch over the problem stays on the intake..

what if I leave it like the way it is? will that cuase a problem?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

A spring won't do that. Once the valve is closed, 100 or 400lbs of spring force will simply hold the valve closed, the tip of the valve will be in the same place.

I agree with Garcia, the parts you can swap are lifters, pushrods, poly lock and rocker. If that does not move the problem, then it could be valve height diff or something else. If it moves the problem, one of your parts is off size. Maybe a longer pushrod? You can at least pinpoint it, and decide if it's worth changing.
It's not a huge height difference, if you can't figure it out, i'd leave it. Just set lash to the right spec (1/2 turn if hydraulic say), and perhaps check the witness mark on both valves on that cylinder, vs a few other cylinders, just make sure its in ball park.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

what and where is the witness mark?

A guy here at work says that shouldnt bother anything...as long as I got the rocker lashed corrrectly, he says to just leave it...the valve will still open and close the way its suppose to.

Says that could be caused by a number of things....but it wont bother a thing unless Im **** about stuff like that which I am...so I'll check it when I get home but if it stays the same...Im leaving it!

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

I'd say yes, it would cause a problem. Now I'll freely admit that I probably don't have the experience that rgarcia, five7kid & Sonix have, but let's look at it logically:

You've got one valve out of 16 that isn't performing in the same manner as all the rest. So, even if you don't have piston-to-valve interference*, you're going to have one cylinder that's not acting like all the rest, which could very well result in the engine running rough, being down on power, etc.

At this point, I don't have any suggestions for you that haven't already been offered. You've already narrowed it down to the one intake assembly, so I think that your best bet is to swap the stuff like the lifter, rocker, pushrod, poly lock to another cylinder, & see if the problem follows the parts.

If so, get out your micrometer & see what's different.

* (I pretty much have to agree w/ Sonix, given the cam you have it's quite possible, probably even likely that it's not P/V clearance.)

Comp788

For starters if it was my car I would find out what the issue wa and correct it. It might be nothing to worry about but looking at what you have invested i would want to know exactly what is wrong!

Please don't take any offense... But is the rocker fulcrum in upside down? Usually there is a cut out for the bottom of the poly lock to rest on and I am wondering if one is in upside down hence 180° off.

The other things to do is check to see if you got one pushrod that is longer then the others, a rocker arm that has not had the socket pressed all the way into the rocker, and take the polylock and turn it upside down and compair it to the one next to it. If they are the same length that is not the problem.

If it is none of those things I would then pull off all of the rockers on that side of the motor and lay a straight edge across the tops of the valve stems to make sure that they are all at the same height.

If you still have an issue I would then check the roller lifter. I have seen them have issues with different installed heights. Hence the bottom of the pushrod cup is at a different height then the others.

Keep us advised.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

Ive been out in the garage checking things out...I had to remove the rev kit on both sets of rockers that I moved and put it all back together without the rev springs attached....Comp788...HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD! its the lifter pocket....I moved the one that has the issue and it followed....push rods are all the same size, fulcrum is rightside up, poly locks are the same size, rocker bolts are all the same hieght....

its the pocket the push rod goes into....its keeping the pushrod that that much higher than all the other....

thats great! Comp is closed.....oh well Im at a stand still again..

Im gonna get the damn thing replaced...let me ask you if I was to leave it waht would that do?

rgarcia63

If the lifter valve was just stuck it would have released after all the pressure you put on it, I wouldn't of using it now, even if it "suddenly" released I'd still get it replaced.

Remember. we're **** over things like that.

Comp788

It may not cause any issue but I would change it out. Whomever you got the lifters should change it out for free. After all it is defective. It may not cause any issue but then again it could. You just never know.

Glad I was able to help out.

Congrads on finding the problem! Just because people give advice does not always mean that you will be able to find it.

Gramps

iTrader: (1)

dude nice engine but im really worried about that cork gasket setup you got to seal the intake manifold...you should use RTV silicone, a 1/4" thick beed on the block...run it from the left gasket to the right and have the silicone overlap onto the gasket. ive seen that cork **** leak so much its embarrassing.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

some say they leak others say they dont..they came with this sticky crap on the bottom side and they dont seem to move...what Im going to do is run the RTV up the sides onto the intake gaskets...and run a very thin coat of (brush-on)High Tack gasket sealant on the top of the cork...and also Im going to put some RTV on the backside of the cork ....

I like the way the cork fills in the big gap of the HSR..

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Interesting, so it's like the one lifter has a stiffer spring in it sorta thing? Or its stop is just a bit higher up? So you get to 0 lash just a tad bit earlier? hmm, yea, i'd have that one on a table, with another one, and eye ball 'em like crazy.
You might be able to spot the difference by eye. If you can, it makes returning it easier.
Weird issue, but at least ya found it.