Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Hey guys...and gals,

First, the story...

The vehicle is an 84 T/A. It has an L69 H.O. with 124k miles on it. It has a 700R4 and 3.73 gears. It was rebuilt once around 60k miles by the previous owner and should have the original heads on it (should be 416 casting if they weren't changed by the previous owner. when I took it out of storage after nearly 10 years and put it on a 1400 mile road trip, all sorts of things went wrong and started to leak. I've got them all fixed now, all except the motor. The motor runs strong. Pulls all the way to 4800 rpm or so before it loses gas...you can feel it just stop pulling when it gets there though I've only gone that high a few times. When I got the car it was bone stock. I've since added (Before I got married).

Hooker 2055 headers
2.5" flowmaster cat-back (didn't know I should have gone with a 3" at the time)
B&M Transkit (had to rebuild the tranny anyway)
Polyurethane Bushings all the way around
Hotchkis lowering springs and front/rear sway bar
Wonderbar

Now the problems...

The problems I'm having with the motor are that it leaks oil from the front seal near the harmonic balancer and rear main seal to the tune of 2-quarts every 3000 miles. It also blows black smoke when I start it and rev it hard, but that's nothing new to anyone who's owned chevy's...I wonder if it's a design flaw or if they did it on purpose?

I've checked around and every shop in my area (all 4 of them not including dealers within 120 miles) wants $1700 to "reseal" the motor. I thought it was a bit excessive so (and with some head bashing from the wife), I've put it off. I have yet to see what a valve job or other head-work is needed or would cost to get rid of the smoke issue.

The Solution...
1. Do I simply take it to a machine shop, have them go through the motor (assuming nothing is wrong with the bottom end), seal the motor (standard rebuild kit from summit with pistons, rings and all the gaskets?), port/polish the heads and upgrade to 1.94/1.6 valves, and finally a new cam and some roller-rockers to top it off?

OR..

2. Build up the 350 roller block that's on my garage floor?

Now, before this blows up into a "There's no replacement for displacement" discussion, let me continue.

This is my daily driver and with the way gas prices have skyrocketed and will probably continue to do so, I must keep MPG at the top of my "needs" list but at the same time, make it a little more fun to drive. My sister and her ford probe walked away from me last year while I was home visiting so that was a little embarassing.

For the 350, it is a bare block. It has nothing. I would need to purchase the rotating assembly, cam, lifters, rockers, pushrods, lifter-spider assembly, and intake. Not to mention a new distributer and cpu that will have to go along with it. The only up-side that I have is that I have a set of complete vortec heads in unknown condition so I am not completely screwed. Just mostly. I hit $3k in parts and that's just for the very basics to get it running and doesn't include any extra machine work that may need to be done to the block or heads. I've already had the blocked magnafluxed, cleaned and bored .030 to clean up a cylinder that was bad due to the engine damage however with what I've priced, I'm way over the limit for what I wanted to spend. If I was going to go that route, I might as well buy a crate motor that's already fully assembled.


As for the 305, by way of the "SEARCH" function (great thing it is btw), five7Kid has indicated that as long as the engine is running strong, I probably don't need any work to the bottom end. If I don't, that would save me tons of money (well, about $600 anyway). However even a standard rebuild kit comes with new pistons. Can the machine shop check to make sure the bottom end is good? Should they pull it all apart anyway to check? Should I use the pistons that come with the kit or if mine are still good, should I keep using them?

If the bottom end doesn't need any work, my plan, is as follows...

Port and polish my 305 heads and upgrade to 1.94in/1.6exh valves. Upgrade from my 2.5" cat-back to 3". Then put this Voodoo Cam in along with the required new lifters, pushrods and for the heck of it roller-rockers. The cam specs are as follows..

Duration @ .050 IN/EX: 207/213; Lift IN/EX: .437"/.454"; LSA / ICL: 112/108; RPM Range: idle-5000

All of this puts me right at about $1700 before any extra for labor that I will need and should give me, I believe, the little extra "go power" I want out of the motor without sacrificing my gas mileage too much (Currently 23mpg, would like to get 23-25 if possible). The roller rockers and cat-back are purely "wants" though so I could probably knock another $300.00 off that price.

The parts list that I've come up with I'll put in the next post down. Thanks for any help and input you guys have, I'm looking forward to seeing what you have to say!

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

305 parts...these are the items I see that I need to buy. These are the prices from Summit and all part numbers are summit numbers.

Price from Summit
Lunati Voodoo Cam W/ Lifters
LUN-60100LK $189.95
Duration @ .050 IN/EX: 207/213; Lift IN/EX: .437"/.454"; LSA / ICL: 112/108; RPM Range: idle-5000
Lunati Cam Behive spring kit
LUN-74818K5LUN $294.99

Lunati Bracketmaster Pushrods
LUN-81134 $39.39

Lunati Aluminum Voodoo Roller Rockers LUN-85300LUN $339.95

Rebuild Kit (standard) FEM-MHP124-000 $329.95

Magnaflow Cat Direct fit
MPE-93440 $118.95

Hooker Catback
* HOK-16823HKR $315.95

Hooker Aerochamber Muffler
* HOK-21506HKR $65.95


Total Price before machine work on heads = $1,695.08

Price without catback before machine work = $1,194.23

Now I would guess that the machine work on the heads would run somewhere in the neighborhood of $400.00 or so. For you guys who have had the machine work done on your 416 casting heads...does that sound about right?

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

For the 350, this is what I've priced....also from summit.

Lunait Roller Voodoo Cam
LUN-60120 $309.00
Duration @ .050 IN/EX: 211/219;Lift IN/EX: .507"/.515";LSA / ICL: 112/106;RPM Range: 1600-5600


Lunati Roller Behive Spring kit
LUN-74818K5LUN $295.00

GM Lifters, spiders, locks etc NAL-12371042 235.88

Comp Cams Pushrods
CCA-7972-16 One piece $140.00
CCA-7808-16 Welded ball end factory replacement type

Comp Cams Pushrod Guideplate
CCA-4808-8 *requires machining for screw in studs $22.88

Comp Cams Pro-Magnum Roller Rockers
CCA-1317-16 Self Aligning $329.95


GM EGR Vortec intake manifold
* NAL-12496820 $265.88

Rotating Assembly internally balanced
ESP-B13202L03053 $869.95

Oil Pan $165.95
MOR-20182

Windage Tray $109.95
MIL-32255


Total cost for parts before any potential additional machine work = $2,753.56

this does not include any of the gaskets or other stuff you normally get in a rebuild kit nore does it include the flywheel, harmonic balancer or any of the "little things" that I don't have to replace with the 305. so probably another $200-300 dollars added on to my final price


ok...so the windage tray is overkill...but still...this gave me a good idea of what I need and it was a real eye opener.

Now, before everyone goes off on the "go to a junkyard blah blah blah", I tried that, nothing around here left...completely picked clean. I could probably go on ebay and find some cheaper, you can "always" find stuff cheaper right? hehe I just don't know how well you can trust "used" stuff that well if you weren't the one using it ya know? Who knows, maybe there'll be a junkyard near Salt Lake city that I can go through that will have everything I'm looking for in a wrecked car but a perfect engine. Wouldn't that be cool.

macertheracer

the loss of power could be a plugged cat converter, originaly bought my z because of it, and no one could find the problem with the fuel system. also could be linked to the rest of your problems. Way to much back preasure could be forced past the rings and overpowering the pcv system thus forcing oil out of the seals. my dads ford lost the rings and forced oil out the main seals??? good luck
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P.S. sounds to me like you WANT an excuse to spend big bucks on a new motor. if that is what you want just do it, get r done

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I'm actually looking for the cheaper way to do it. I just wanted to post the research I've done so far...I don't mind the 305, but I"ve got a good block and heads sitting in my garage that I don't exactly want to waste if I can find a way to use them.

macertheracer

all that jazz is not nessary, unless you are a hard core show buff or plan to race the thing, most of it is braging rights anyway. with the cost of gas today I wont be building anymore hi HP motors, I am going to go the other way. smaller intake valves, and velocity tuning, get the fuel atomized for more efficent burn and larger exaust valves to get it out faster. Total seal rings. a good low to mid cam, an effecient stroke to rod ratio, (personal choice will be 327 crank 6 inch rods possably 400 block for 352ci) and a tuned port intake to take advantage of the smaller intake valves. and I already have the 3" headers to tail exaust. I design for a peak torque of 5000rpm and I don't care what the max hp is. if i were you I'd build the 350 basicly stock and use th 305 heads with 160 exaust valves instaled and a 268 split duration comp cam, just my theory!

macertheracer

Oh by the way the last one I built was very strong to 120mph out here 100mph will get you 30 days in jail , mandatory! plus the fact there is always someone faster, I gave that vanity trip up years ago. I do what I like and urnaite on the rest of the hype.

89RsPower!

I wouldn't not do the 350 do to fuel concerns, if the 305 and 350 are built similar they will get pretty close to the same gas mileage. Also you could reuse your current carb and dist with it, no need to change em if moneys tight. If you're going really radical with it I'd suggest a non cc dist (vaccum advance) and appropriately sized carb.
If the 305 needs any bottom end work I wouldn't build it.
If it doesn't just replace the timing covergasket, front crank seal, oil pan seal, and rear main, pull your heads havem done as you described above, puttem back on and drive away happy.
If you do that later on down the road you can build the 350 and have a decent set of heads to put on it.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

After reading through probably a thousand posts of the 305 vs 350, what you just said is exactly what everyone who posted seems to think. SO I guess as long as the 305 doesn't need any bottom-end work, I'll run with it, have it resealed, upgrade the top-end, swap the cam, and be happy!! However, if it needs work...

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

pcv, valve seals and front and rear seal

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

If it loses power at 4800 RPMs every time, it could be valve float due to weak springs. Not uncommon when some of the valves have been sitting open for 10 years.

Could also be the ignition - 4800 RPMs is a pretty familiar # for drop-off of stock HEI parts. Coil and module are the typical culprits.

If 4800 RPMs was an approximation, or it only drops off under full power, then it might be fuel delivery. HO's had an in-tank electric pump, failure is common (especially when sitting for 10 years). Could also be a weak mechanical pump, or a clogged pick-up sock in the tank (not uncommon after sitting for 10 years). Have you replaced the fuel filter in the carb inlet?

Black smoke at start-up is excessive fuel. Blue smoke at start-up is the common SBC mode, caused by failed valve stem seals. The black smoke could be leaking q-jet well plugs - pretty common on q-jets, provides a direct path from the fuel bowl to the intake plenum. Epoxy over the well plugs usually solves that - requires carb removal and some disassembly.

So far, none of these things will be fixed with a 350. Head work, some of it.

I'm toying with the idea of a Vortec head/intake kit http://www.sdparts.com/product/SD806...merIntake.aspx for my 350. Just haven't been able to justify it yet.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

I replaced the mechanical fuel pump back in July when the original started to leak. The filter is new as well. Should I add another filter inline somewhere? Is there a second electric pump in the gas tank? How do I clean the filter in the tank that you described?

The smoke is more blue than black. The Q-Jet on it now is a new one (1 year old) from Jet performance products. I've replaced the cap and rotor along with the plug wires with MSD components but not the coil. Should I go ahead and replace that as well?

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Now that looks like a set up I would use on the 350 I have on the garage floor. I like how they've put it together. The only thing needed is to get one of those EGR compatable intakes for those of us in states that require us to "look" like we have all the emmissions stuff.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Alright, well, I ran it all the way up to the red-line today at 5500rpm and it pulled all the way through. Now that I look back on it, I don't thin I've pushed the car that hard since I replaced the cap and rotor. The old rotor had a bushing right in the middle of it, went from the rotor up to the cap tht was broke on the old one. It just crumpled to dust in my hand. The new one is all copper.

As for the rest of it, I dunno. Looks like though that providing the bottom end is good, I"m going to port and polish the heads, have a back-cut 3-angle valve job done, port match the heads and intake, and reseal the motor. Finally, i'm going to install the cam I mentioned earlier. I guess the only thing left now is do I keep my L69 intake manifold or do I swap it for a carbureted Z28 manifold I have in the garage. I'm pretty sure they're close to the same thing as the Z manifold was from an 84 also. Any ideas?

Now, if the bottom end is bad...I'm going to have to look really hard at doing the 350 build...

Does that sound right? Any other recommendations?