mxcrazed

I am missing the belt that sits second furthest from the block and routs crank water pump power steering pump but it seems redundant. can i expect 1 to slip?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

You're not using the power steering I take it?
Just one belt running water pump and alternator should work ok. Make sure it's good and tight. You'll know if it starts slipping, you'll hear it. Then you know you need to add in the other one

mxcrazed

I am using the power steering sort of, I'm not using the car. But when I do use the car I the power steering works fine. It is sweet my car leaks no fluids any where.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Ok i'm lost. This is a v-belt setup right? Now you should have

Belt 1 - crank, water pump, alternator
Belt 2 - crank, water pump, power steering

If one belt is missing, one of those (alt or power steering) won't work. So which belt is missing?

Apeiron

It's an 87, so it's the hybrid serpentine/V belt setup. The second pulley was for driving the A/C, which you don't seem to have anymore.

mxcrazed

do you think that it is worth putting the other on there?

Apeiron

No, but ditching the fixed fan would be.

mxcrazed

yea i have a pair of e fans form a 3.4L Taurus SHO how much hp do you think that fan is robbing?

Funny thing is the fan blades flatten out quite a bit at speed so it probably robs the same power from the very point that they start to flatten out all the way to the rev limiter

Apeiron

I don't know, but I'm sure it's more than enough.

mxcrazed

does the alternator cause more drag when more amperage is being drawn on it?

Apeiron

Yes

mxcrazed

Thats what I thought, so if I am moving the same amount of air it would use the the same amount of wattage or HP, redundant? Kinda belongs in the cooling part of the forum but these are my last questions. Are electric fans more energy efficient because they do a better job of moving air across the radiator its self therefore moving less, or just because they are electric somehow makes them more efficient.
I'll probably add a capacitor to deal with the 30 or so amps that these fans could draw to take some of the load off the alternator is it overkill?

Thanks for all the help!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

A capacitor doesn't create energy, so a sustained load like a fan wouldn't benefit from a cap.

The main bonus behind electric fans is that when you're cruising with the air dam in place, cooling fans aren't even needed. You can't turn off mechanical fans, but the electric won't even turn on.

When the engine is warm and you're hot rodding around town the difference isn't all that huge. The engine sounds VASTLY different with electric fans vs mechanical. Think of an astrovan - you know how those things sound so very distinct? Like a large rush of air? Ok, take that stupid WHOOSH sound away and you can hear your engine rumble again. Very worthwhile IMHO. I've done it, using the 3.8L Taurus fans.

mxcrazed

capacitors are commonly uses on ac motors, is that because they are ac current? i personally think that it will help and i completely agree about the sound I also own a jeep (avatar) and with over 100* aat the fan is on constantly loud as heck!

thanks again!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Yes, they are used on AC motors for a completely different purpose. I was talking to my boss about that just a few days ago, but completely forgot what the answer was - due to lack of interest on my behalf.
Suffice it to say I think you'd be the only one using a capacitor on your fan - and I think there's a reason that no one else does it

Apeiron

The start capacitor on a motor is used to help supply the current it takes to start a large motor. The rest of the time it's not doing much.

mxcrazed

run capacitors are used on just about every refrigeration and comfort cooling compressor, some of the smaller ones only have a start cap and use a potential relay that works off of back EMF to drop out the start winding when it achieves about 75% of its normal operating speed. also a smaller motor, your circulator pumps which are not positive displacement that are used to circulate water in a hydronic heating system.

when I said ac in my first reference I was referring to ac current not air conditioners as not to make things confusing.

Not attempting to sound offensive here just stating some facts that I am very familiar with.

a capacitor is a battery that is able to discharge all of it's charge almost instantly and recharge almost as quickly it is very much like a battery but a battery can not discharge as quickly. it is possible that the battery makes it unnecessary for a capacitor but I still doubt that.

it would not be unreasonable for you to assume that my experience with capacitors is limited to car audio bot that is not that case here. but because of my car audio experience I do already have a capacitor so if and when i do the fans i will let you know if i out the capacitor in.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Oh no, I understand you, I thought you meant AC current not A/C (cold).

Yea, my experience with capacitors is in the electronics field as well as car audio. Just like Ape there said, it's for the inrush current to start up a big motor. If you sized a cap correctly it could reduce the load on your battery for starting up the fans, but once they are running it wouldn't do anything (you're familiar with that right?). I really don't think it would do you any good to put one on to help it start the motor. Case in point - i'm pretty sure no cars are outfitted with a capacitor for their cooling fans, and most cars after, what, 1987 used electric fans?

Apeiron

A run capacitor is similar to a start capacitor, but is much smaller. It's to counter the inductance in the windings to optimize the phase angle for greater efficiency and running torque. None of that has anything to do with a cooling fan motor.

mxcrazed

no in many ac current applications capacitors are used to reduce rla
or running load amperage
my attempt to clear confusion must have created some, sorry.

thats what i meant the first time

every motor has inductance i do not understand why a fan motor would be any different?

yes fans don't need torque except for start up but it is the same as why you don't swap a v6 for gas mileage because it has to work harder even at cruising speed where torque is not really a factor

the capacitor is your extra 2 cylinders

Fullsizewagon

It's quite common to ditch the belt that goes to the A/C if you don't use it, but I prefer to have it installed as a safety backup for the other power steering belt.
If that fan is fixed it robs a constant (more or less) torque throughout the rpm range making for an increased hp loss with increasing rpm.
I'd ditch it in favor of a clutch fan or electric fans. They give the same savings. The clutch fans moves around 2-3000 cfm at idle when active.
As for the capacitor, if you have no better use for it, use it, although it's a waste of work, hardware & space. It'll take the load off the battery for the first 1/10 or so of a second when the fan starts up, but be sure to install it before the relay, not after. Remember it's DC current in a car, AC theory doesn't apply to the motors here, and that capacitor is 10000 times larger than the AC cap's.
An AC start or run capacitor is there to introduce phase shift in the magnetic field to the rotor so it gets a starting torque or a better running torque.
A phase compensating capacitor is used to reduce the running current of motors and fluorescent light fixtures. Current can be real, doing real work, or it can be inductive or capacitive. Inductive and capacitive currents are exactly 180 degrees opposite, so one cancels the other, whereas real current is 90 degrees to them.
Let's say an AC motor draws 14.14 Amps and that the phase shift is 45 degrees so that only part of it is doing real work (cos(45)=0.707). This comes out to 10 Amps real and 10 Amps inductive current (since they are pointing 90 degrees from each other). If you then add a correctly sized capacitor (that draws 10 Amps) across the line, it will cancel the 10A inductive current so that all that remains is the 10A real current. Thus you can save on wire and fuse sizes.
With a DC motor that draws 14 Amps, all of it is real and there's nothing you can do external to it to reduce the current without reducing the work it does at the same time.

mxcrazed

Wow this was a great post, thank you for setting me straight. I'm glad I went back and read it I thought that the thread had died.