alright, I have been having troubles trying to figure these out, Im going to buy these heads from this site, but what is the differance with angle plugs and straight plugs?

Angle Plug -

"ast Iron cylinder head SMALL BLOCK CHEVROLET
intake runner 180cc
combustion chamber 64cc Angle plug
Valve sizes 2.02" / 1.60" 11/32 guide ID size
EQ Cylinder Heads are: • newly designed to be much more efficient than previous versions, and are not allowed to be cast until flow numbers and Dyno numbers exceed previously PUBLISHED numbers, averaging 10 - 15 CFM greater than other manufacturers. • cast at an ISO 9001 facility where one head from the beginning of each run is digitally checked for all tolerances, and each head is checked prior to being shipped to ensure maximum quality. DURA BOND 30000 series exhuast seat and phosphorous bronze guides in both intake and exhaust• "

Straight Plug -

"Cast Iron cylinder head SMALL BLOCK CHEVROLET
intake runner 180cc
combustion chamber 64cc Straight plug
Valve sizes 2.02" / 1.60" 11/32 guide ID size
EQ Cylinder Heads are: • newly designed to be much more efficient than previous versions, and are not allowed to be cast until flow numbers and Dyno numbers exceed previously PUBLISHED numbers, averaging 10 - 15 CFM greater than other manufacturers. • cast at an ISO 9001 facility where one head from the beginning of each run is digitally checked for all tolerances, and each head is checked prior to being shipped to ensure maximum quality. DURA BOND 30000 series exhuast seat and phosphorous bronze guides in both intake and exhaust• "

Website:
https://parts.aaeq.net/IW_Products.m...TI_ITEM_SUBMIT


then I am trying to figure which pistons would work with those heads, I cant really figure out the math and stuff to them (been sitting here for two hours trying to find matching numbers to the heads to the pistons

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...50613_-1_10219

Much thanks to those who read this and help me because these are the only troubles im having right now.

Thank you!
Tim

 

Angle is supposed to give a slightly better flame propagation I believe.

64cc heads, ok, you probably want a flat top piston if we're talking about a 350.
NP345 is the speed-pro hyper part number that's about as common as borscht. zero deck the block and you're done, no futz no muss.

No sense using $500 forged pistons on a vortec 350, that's super overkill. $100 speedpros will get the job done. Spend the extra $400 on stuff that'll help the car go $400 worth faster eh?

 

Thanks, that helps much. Im not really trying to spend too much (I added all the parts, should be atleast $2500.. maybe even $3000..) and that helps alot better knowing I can get cheaper pistons then more for then what I need to buy...
Im not really trying to make this into a racing engine.. trying to keep the hp below 340, and above 300.

 

Now that's a poor goal haha, i've never heard anyone quote a "max" HP...

I think with your planned combo you shouldn't have a problem hitting 370HP or so. Pick the right cam.

 

The article Im reading says I should make 370 HP if I put the parts in they have, I would Love to do that, but Im really afraid of the gas milage is gonna be after im done (I know I wont get to drive this car much but, but gas milage will hurt me big time)

I went on summit racing (where I buy alot of my parts, even if they are sometimes pricy or not) the bore size got me stumped now.. I dont know the bore size, and would any work? (which I have a feeling no it wont, but I wanna make sure) cause I dont know either if they are too big or too small..

 

What size engine are you using? Is it bored out? You need .030 overbore pistons if your engine is bored .030 over. Make sense?

 

im going to rebuild my 305 (and I do hear alot of "just go buy a 350" from alot of people, but 305 will work for me.
would a bored .30 be the same on a 305?

 

You saw a magazine making 370 hp with a 305 and vortec heads? Doesn't seem right to me, but I could be wrong. I'll say it right away. Find a 350 block. You'll make way more power. Trust me. If you're going through the work to tear your motor down, at least put in a 350 while everything is apart. If you're worried about gas mileage you're into the wrong cars; unless you go with fuel injection (assuming the magazine was using a carb).

Anyways, your piston question:
The stock bore on a 305 is 3.736 inches. So if you bore it out .030 more, you'd get 3.766 inches.

The stock bore on a 350 is 4.000 inches. So if you bore that out .030 more, you'd get 4.030 inches.

Of course no one states that you have to bore it out .030. Some people go .010 or sometimes you don't need to bore it out at all. Just depends on what the block needs.

In addition, those vortecs are made for a 350. I'm not sure how a 64cc chamber will work out on a 305. You'll need to figure out whether to get flat top pistons or domes.

Does all that make sense? Hopefully it does. I'd wait till tomorrow to make sure everything I stated is 100 percent correct. Good luck. Keep posting questions.

 

Compare thecost of a 350 core to the increase in power you'll get. Machinework on a 305 and a 350 cost the same. Just one gets you more power.

There's nothing wrong with building up a 305. QUITE often that's a much cheaper option than building a 350 which means it's a better option. Everyone here is all about horsepower per dollar. But when you're down to just the block and doing machinework and buying a new set of pistons and rods anyway... there's not really much reason to keep the less powerful motor. It doesnt save you much money at all.

 

Yeah...
I guess.
the engine I have now has about 170,000 miles on it, and I keep changing my mind from getting a crate engine, to rebuilding 305, and now stuck between either rebuilding a 305, or a 350..
may sound dumb, and Im thankful for your guy's help, just sorta burned out of what to do, but yet again, I got till May when I will have all the money for this, I just wanna be a head and get all the parts right, and how much it will all cost at the end.
But I like having more power to the engine, But this car is sorta going to be a daily drive car.. thats why I didnt want too much horsepower..

 

Vortec heads aren't going to get you "too much horsepower". Don't worry. You're safe

 

Alright,
I forgot to mension, im 16, Not alot of experance with engines, but trying to find a good solution (not a cheap one, because I know the vaule of the dollar to making a good engine)
My dad has been trying to make me stay with my engine so its cheaper.. but he thinks its a 350.. I know its a 305, its the stock engine. and when I tell him, he wont really listen.. :-\ and I gotta make what use to this car.. because this is the only car I will pretty much own (that still works) gotta last me till I buy another vehichle.

 

Maybe you should just leave it stock. Things tend to get unreliable when you start ripping them apart.

But if you're going to continue on, here's what I would do. Find a stock good running vortec 350 out of a 90's truck. Put a better cam in it and drop it in. You don't have to rebuild anything. Find something that's either running or rebuilt already. But if you're going through all the trouble, at least put a 350 or 400 in while you're at it.

BTW, you do have headers and stuff right?

 

How do you know that?

What's the block casting number?

You don't want 64cc or 67cc heads on a 305. That's just not the right way to go. Meaning, ANY of htose heads is a mistake.

I don't see any Vortech heads on their site; only EngineQuest ones. I wasn't aware Vortech made heads, only centrifugal superchargers, but maybe I'm uninformed? The only heads I know of with a name anything like that, are Vortec, and are made by GM; however none of those heads appears to be of that type (raised intake runners), although a few of them say "Vortec style chambers". But the chambers aren't what makes Vortec heads Vortec, it's the intake runner location; GM raised them SO FAR, in order to straighten out the flow through the port and into the chamber (which is where their power comes from), that early intakes usually won't even completely cover the ports in the heads, let alone match to them. I don't see any mention of requiring a Vortec-specific inatke on any of those heads, which means they're probably not "Vortec", no matter what "style" of combustion chamber they are said to have. I'd also be concerned about where those heads are coming from; the market has been flooded lately with cheeeep Chinese castings of very uneven quality, at unbelievably good prices; if these are some of those, then your odds of a successful experience with no "gotchas" are far less than 100%.

Buying parts is about half, or maybe a little less, of the cost of "rebuilding" an engine. The rest isin machine work and incidentals. For a 16-yr-old, it'll be less than half, because so much of the stuff that those of us who have been building motors for decades and already have, you don't. Stuff like calipers, dial indicators, valve spring micrometers, ring compressors, torque wrenches, die grinders, air compressors, etc. etc. etc. So, if you can identify the parts you need, like rings, bearings, pistons, cam, gaskets, and so on, add all that up; multiply by 3; and then DO NOT TURN THE FIRST BOLT until you have that amount of money IN YOUR HAND and available to spend on it. Otherwise, you will simply disable your car, and then have to ride the bus for a long time while trying to come up with it.

However all taht may be, first thing you MUST do, is to identify beyond any shadow of doubt (meaning, with sufficient certainty that even your dad is convinced), what your motor REALLY is. "I just know it's a ...." isn't good enough to buy parts for and expect them to fit.

What's the block casting number? What heads are on it now? (Casting number on those as well)

 

It's 0.030", to start with, not .30".

The 305 and 350 have the same stroke, 3.48". The difference is the size of the bore, the 305 being 3.736" and the 350 4.000". If you do the math, you'll see that 0.030" over on the 305 is nowhere near 4.000".

0.030" is the typical clean-up overbore when you rebuild a worn engine. The intent isn't to increase the size of the engine, but to clean up the cylinder walls so you restore the sealing of the piston rings.

To clear something else up, that 370 HP the magazine may have gotten was a "tweaked" number - meaning they stacked the deck to get a high peak HP number. The way the engine would run in your car would either be to have a lot less power, or be near impossible to drive in a "normal" fashion. They used a carb, of that you can be sure without even reading the article, and that engine under your TBI would be hell on earth. If you are concerned about gas mileage, the first thing you should assume is that you'll keep the TBI, and TBI is very sensitive to changes that increase power. Spend some time on the TBI forum so you can understand that.

You clearly have to learn the "conversion factors" between magazine articles and real life. 300 HP out of a 305 TBI may be "possible", even easier with a 350 TBI, but what it takes to get there and what you'll live with once you arrive may not be what you're after.

 

Get a stock 96-98(these years ONLY or up to 2000 in the suburbans) out a Chevy pickup, get a Performer vortec intake, TBI adapter plate, a set of headers and y-pipe, catback exhaust, and get a custom burnt chip. THis will be PLENTY of power for you to start. It will meet your goal of 300hp, and be more than enough power to break your transmission if you beat on it. You are looking at about $1500 right there.

 

That's exactly what I said. Find something running that you can just drop in. It'll be cheap and take a weekend.

 

I know. Just gave him the EXACT years to look for and some extra details. And he's not ready for the cam swap yet.

 

Oh. I wasn't cocking off haha. Just agreeing with you.

 

-sigh-
as how many of you are making this real differcult for me to understand and to figure it out, I hear alot of if and buts about these, of either using a 305, 350, and maybe rebuilding will take alot more then what I expect it to be, I can tell the engine is stock by looking at it, the stock throttle body injection, stock intake, stock exhaust manifolds, its all stock, the only thing that isnt stock is the water pump and the air cleaner, thats it. I really dont know where my dad is getting its a 350, cause I know that GM didnt come out a third gen camaro with a 350 engine stock. I kind of already figure these heads and parts im looking at wouldnt work on a 305, if I gotta go get a 350 block and start from scrap, I would. I know this article (which is by Camaro Performance: HATE ME adding 150 hp to a engine no one likes) The EngineQuest had vortech heads, with 180cc, 64cc, blah blah blah. but they had two different sites they were selling them, but I cant figure which is what, I search and relook and relooked both the sites, and that was probly the closest I can get to match the same heads as they were speaking in the magazine.
I already got a new pair of headers, and new parts, but Im not gonna name them off, (because im getting a tad testy with all this) and I dont plan on buying the parts TILL I know I have the money on Hand.

Anything else?

Here is the page, if any of you are curious about it.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...der_heads.html
AND I do relize now I dont see where they say they are vortech heads, if it makes a differance, there was some that said "vortec" if that makes a much differance.
I wanted to correct my self on that one -.-

 

That's impressive for a 305. I still think you could do it cheaper and more easily by just buying a 350 or 400, slapping on some vortec heads and making 400 hp. But then again, what do I know about racing or cars? I'm still running a V6 in my Camaro and have only been a member here for a week.

 

Meh, I guess its cheaper...
thinking about going with my first idea again and just get a crate engine and put on these mods on it, and call it good.
Im not all up for the racing, this car will be more like a daily drive car (which I know it wont after im done putting in a new engine... if that is I still wanna do it and not as fustrated as I am now) because I gotta make due to of what I got of this car because its the only vehichle I got till I go to college.

 

Honestly your best off converting your car to TPI and calling it a day. You'll improve your gas mileage and gain some power. Tearing your car apart will most likely decrease its reliability.

 

Forget about magazine articles, Vortech, Vortec, angle vs straight plugs, and all that, for about 5 minutes.

WHAT MOTOR DO YOU ACTUALLY HAVE? this is very important...

WHAT HEADS ARE ON IT NOW? also important.....

Without knowing FOR CERTAIN what you have, it is impossible to help you determine the most rational upgrade path, short of ripping the whole thing out and starting over from scratch... because then it wouldn't matter what you have now.

We all know here that TBI Camaros didn't "come with" 350s. Most of us ALSO know, that a 350 is a DIRECT DROP-IN AND BOLT-UP replacement for a 305; it is IDENTICAL in every way, externally, to a 305 of the same year range; and that people do that all the time. For that matter, 400s didn't come in these cars, either; but I had one in mine for at least 12 years.

What motor is REALLY in your car? Until we have this answer we can flail around here about all this other drivel, and you will be NOT ONE INCH CLOSER to a reasonable, orderly, logical plan for an upgrade, that will have a good chance of success. If in fact, that's even the right thing to do. IT ALL HINGES ON WHAT YOU HAVE NOW.

Get the casting numbers off the block and the heads, and post them. They will tell, instantly and with absolute 100% accurate and infallible certainty, what motor is in the car; or at least, whether it's a 350, or a 305.

 

-Sigh-
once again, I know its a 305, but I will check it anyway later (im in school right now)

I've been pretty much raised and known Throttle bodies and carbs, TPIs, and LS1s, engines like that, I dont know a thing about them, and I wont touch one (no offence, only reason why I wouldnt touch one is because I wont know one thing about them).

Im not really looking for power, Im better off getting a crate engine and call it good. atleast then all I really have to do is swap the cam, and put in a new intake and carb, or stay with the intake I got and throttle body. atleast then Im not stressing out on seperate parts and hoping they will all work together.

 

If you don't know the casting # of the block, how do you think you can possibly "know" it's a 305? It's the only way.

If it IS a 305, then those heads you linked to, (or for that matter, almost ANY heads other than 305 TPI/LG4/L69 heads) are a mistake.

If it IS a 350, then maybe they'll work; but there's probably other issues that will give you AHELLUVALOT more bang for the $$$.

This is why it's IMPORTANT that we know WITH ABSOLUTE INFALLIBLE PERFECT UNQUESTIONABLE CERTAIN RELIABILITY what size the motor is, in order to give you good effective help instead of just a bunch of monkey-spank like arguing about whether magazine articles are accurate and truthful(AS IF).

In NO CASE WHATSOEVER will those heads, or any others, improve the car's dependability; that's not how you go about making a car "last" or whatever, through your high school career. It is POSITIVELY CERTAIN that there is a very very long list of other things you can do with the same amount of money, that will ensure that stated goal FAR more effectively than a head swap. In fact, that might be your dad's REAL objection to your proposal: he's wise that you're "gaming" him on why you want to do it. Not that I would know anything about any of that, of course: I only have a 19-yr-old son and a 17-yr-old daughter myself, so I've never had any experience with 16-yr-old kids in HS trying to weezel their parents into letting them do something they want.

 

Yeah,
me and my father argue about engines and parts all the time :-\
but he does know what he talking about and I "think" I do alot of times..
Meh.. but anyway, I'll find out the block number, but Im still thinking about going with my first thought, just go buy an engine that was a pretty decent price ($2000, for the 350 block, cam, pistons, crankshaft, heads, and rings.) the rest I can put on, and I can put better parts in if I want.. but if it Is a 350 already, then it'll be different...

 

Im not a big fan of TPI. There's nothing wrong with the TBI system.

A TBI 305 puts out 170 hp, and a TPI 305 puts out 205 hp. A whole 35 hp difference spread between different cams, different exhaust, different heads, different intake manifolds, and different injection systems. Do you guys really think the TBI system is the bottleneck in the L03? It's the heads, exhaust, intake (which can be swapped out for a carb intake and a small spacer without too much trouble) and cam that's the bottleneck.

The only real problem with TBI is the fact that the ECM doesn't refresh as quickly (From what I understand) and all you gotta do is swap in and convert a TPI ecm and I think all you need to do is just put your TBI chip in it... but I may be wrong on that. But in and of itself that's not even that big of a deal to even be worth the trouble to begin with.

 

Personally, I'm not a big fan of EITHER TPI or TBI; but that's not my top consideration. I'm not one of these like some here that think that if you have their "hated" brand, or don't have their "beloved" brand, you gotta rip whatever off and install something else.

In the end, it's all fuel, air, and spark. The engine is a HEAT engine, which converts HEAT energy (provided by combustion) into MECHANICAL energy (moving things). It itself is totally dumb to the sytem that's supplying the fuel, air, and spark; all it cares, is that they're there, in the right proportions, at the right time. Any system that does that is "in theory" capable of making equal power.

I personally "like" EFI (ALOT in fact), but I don't like the stock systems that come on these cars. AT ALL, either of them.

The reason I don't like TBI is because it's crude and half-a$$ed; it incorporates some of the worst features of carbs (wet flow, fuel distribution, etc.) and some of the worst features of FI in general (sensitivity to mods, requires some degree of electronic or programming expertise which not everyone has), while providing the best features of neither. Every "performance" related aspect of it, in the factory setup, is sacrificed in favor of gas mileage and emissions. "In theory", with a good enough controller, its performance could approach and conceivably surpass that of a carb; but in the "real world", it doesn't ever seem to happen that way. I can't recall the last time I heard of a TBI car setting any kind of record at the strip, or anything like that, for example.

I don't like TPI because of its tuned runners. It has these runners that are a total length of 22" , when you add up the distance all the way from the side of the plenum to the intake valve. It uses the acoustic wave created by the inrushing air flowing down the pipe and slamming into thje back of the intake valve at the moment it closes, to travel back UP the runner, into the plenum (producing a "pulse" of positive pressure there), and back down all the runners including the NEXT one with an intake event, thereby helping to push extra air/fuel into that cyl, and making more power than it otherwise would. Sounds good, eh? If you work out the speed of sound and the distance travelled, you will find that it reinforces perfectly at about 3600 RPM, depending on the temp and other things; in the RW, call it somewhere between 3400 and 3800 RPM. Problem is, that same acoustic event, is both preceded and followed by pulses of NEGATIVE pressure, which in turn, help to REDUCE the fill n the "next" cyl, thereby REDUCING power. This effect starts to DOMINATE at about 4500 RPM which is why TPI noses over so hard at that RPM. Then, the runners are SO LONG and SO SMALL, that they can't flow enough air fast enough to fill the cyls at all once beyond the RPMs at which the acoustic events are predominant; so the bottom line is, once it hits 4500 RPM, it's DONE. Good system, on its own ground and in the absence of competition, from - oh, say, Mustangs - when that sort of thing was "state of the art"; so was a chariot when it was state of the art, or a steam locomotive when it was state of the art, or a piston aircraft when it was state of the art. We can do better than all thos things nowadays.

But IMO it's smartest and cheapest to work within the limits of what you've got until you reach its absolute limit, rather than just wholesale rip off stuff and trash it. Whatever TBI's limits are, it's A LONG WAY from being THE thing that prevents most TBI cars from being as fast as they could be. There's PLENTY of things that can be improved, before one bumps into the "ceiling" imposed by TBI. TPI on the other hand starts out being an altogether better motor, in bone stock trim; but you reach its limits sooner as you mod it.

But as far as I'm concerend, this gentleman right here, doesn't need to be changing that out just yet.... seems like he has other things to work out first. Most of which would appear not to be technical in nature at all. We wouldn't be doing him any kind of favor by confusing him even further, and getting him in even farther over his budgetary head, by going there.