But I have never done it "on the car" before.

I need a couple of tools and am interested in opinions or personal experience with those tools.

First I need a spring compressor. I'm looking at this one from Harbor Freight.. it looks like it would work OK.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92900

I also need a spark plug fitting to supply air pressure to the cylinders. I have something like that, which came with a compression tester...but I can't get it into most of the spark plug holes unless I remove the headers. Does anyone know of a "low profile" or "header friendly" version of this tool?

Thanks,

 

go to the hardware store

the size of the spark plug hole is the same as most air hose fittings so you can make something easy just do some simple measuring

you can rent the tool from auto part stores suggested

unless you do it every day or you live 500 miles away

 

Don't bother with the air thing. It is completely unnecessary.

Put the piston for a cyl at TDC, and do those 2 valves. The valve can't fall in if the piston is up there. Turn the engine exactly 90° and do the next cyl in the firing order. And so on. Use a crank turning tool to turn the engine, NOT the damper bolt.

Whap the retainers using a BFH and about a 5/8" socket before trying to spring-compress it; otherwise the retainer will be stuck to the keepers and you won't be able to separate them. Don't whap them too energetically, or the keepers will fly off and the spring will sproing across the room. OK if you don't mind the keepers falling into odd places and getting lodged somewhere bizarre or ingested into the intake or falling into the drainback holes; bad otherwise.

Replace the seals while you're there.

That kind of spring compressor DOES NOT work on double springs; and sometimes even has trouble on single springs with a damper such as are common on SBCs. The kind that looks like a big prybar often works better.

 

As far as renting/borrowing tools...if it isn't real expensive I would rather have my own.

The problem I anticipate with the big pry bar type is that it may be difficult to work with in my engine bay. It seems like it should be a relatively inexpesive tool though. Do you know of a good place to pick one up?

I see what you mean about the spring compressor not working with double springs...I wonder if any like that can grab the inner spring as well?

Turning the engine by hand is never fun. That's why I like the idea of screwing an air fitting in to the spark plug hole.

What kind of crank turning tool would you recomend? I have a crank nut, but of couse that can't be used with the damper in place. I can probably turn it with the flex plate...but that would involve jacking up the car which would make working on the engine more difficult.

I have every 45 degrees marked on my balancer...so I may just try to do it with the starter.

 

i have and have used that type of spring compressor . ( i got mine at NAPA ) not to sure about harbor freight quality . use a magnet for keepers , air press. works on cylinders , be prepared to get inovative with adapter fittings . be sure to change all valve seals , i even put umbrella seals on all valve stems . they are cheap and can't hurt ( extra insurance ) , also make sure to clean all sludge , most of all drain holes at lower front & rear of cylinder heads . thats where oil drains back into the crankcase . good luck .

 

No, they won't work on double springs... think about it.... how is a claw going to get under the outer and reach around and grab the inner? The only reason it works on dampers, is that the dampers are very low pressure (5 lbs or something), and usually stay "stuck" to the outer.

Super cheap, not real easy to use, but eventually maybe effective: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...t=WMR%2DW84002

Much better: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...t=SUM%2D906784

Crank tool: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...rt=PRO%2D66782

I think you'll find that turning the engine is FAR easier than dinking around with the air chuck. BTDT.

 

I was thinking about leaving the seals in place since they have < 5000 miles on them. Also, there is no sludge, or anything else, to clean up. Everything still looks brand new.



OK, I like the "Much Better" one and for the difference in price it isn't worth my time to try to make the other one work. I like that Crank tool as well. So I will order up both.

When using the "Much Better" spring compressor, what direction is the handle pointed? Will it be basically straight up when first installed then you pull it toward the side of the car? How far down will it travel during use (30*, 45*, 90*)? I'm wondering about clearance around the master cylinder and AC box.

When using it without air pressure would I still need to stuff some rope or something in to the cylinder...or will the small amount that the valve can drop (1/8 or 1/4 inch?) not cause a problem when removing the springs.


Thanks,

 

I'm not positive about that particular tool, which way it has to be pointed. Some of those, the handle has to be in a particular orientation wrt the spring; however, that one, I think you can turn the handle ANY way, and it will work. You just put it on the stud with the fork over the retainer, and turn the handle whatever way clears everything.

The valve will drop about 3/8" - ½", with the piston at TDC. Not a problem at all. You can reach in there and pull it back up with your fingers and hold it, as you assemble the retainer and keepers to it.

 

I own the 'super cheap' version, works fine on a TPI with stock runners so it shouldnt be an issue on anything but something like a Superram or T-ram car or something like that.

 

OK, then it should be pretty easy. I guess (like everything else) it is all about having the right tools. But it is hard to have the right tools if you don't know what those tools are, so thank you for your help.

But...drop 1/2" ? Really!?! This is more than I would have thought..maybe on a stock motor...but I'll be really surprised if mine drops anytwhere near that much...well, maybe the exhaust valve. I gues I'll know soon enougjh.

 

Hee Hee, BTDT. I use the super cheap and air. I usually launch them when I get one in and think it'll hold while I'm picking up the other oily one I have dropped. Use a pocket magnet to pick & place them.
Oh, and if you're doing double springs or "good" (read stout) springs, get ready to bow-up. It is a struggle holding them down with one hand while you put in the keepers.

...And I can testify that the exhaust valve will not fall completely into the cylinder with the piston at BDC and yes, it can be fished back up. If you get in a hurry and have the retainer cocked and it hits the top of the valve, it launches the valve in when it pops it off the seat.
Let us know how it goes with the "good" tool. I may just break down and get one.
Oh, and I only use the "claw" type on 4 cylinder OHC work engines. They can scratch the springs and leave the "break-on-the-dotted-line" mark which is fatal for SBCs...

 

Scratch the springs..I hadn't thought of that, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense.

Yes, they are some pretty tough springs 150/450 lbs so it may get interesting. I'll post back here in a couple of weeks (1 week waiting for parts and tools/another to get it done) and let you know how it went.

 

I agree with Sofa. Anyone who tries to use air will immediately abandon efforts and just rotate the engine. Air hose + Air fitting + tight engine bay + noisy compressor + 8 cylinders = death. You can really only use this method on one or two cylinders without using a single swear word.

 

I use air all the time.

The spring compressor I have is a variant of the HB one ESC linked - it came with a handle and a cam, I replaced them with a bolt. The claw may not pick up the inner spring all the time, but it's easy enough to compress the inner spring by hand for the final clearance needed.

I give the retainers a whack like sofa suggested before attaching the tool. Even more effective with air, because it's holding the valve against the seat - no travel needed to loosen the keepers from the retainer.

One possible disadvantage of air is header interference - on the 396, at least, I just drop them.

 

I use air too, but none of my cars have A/C. I especially like the feedback you get using air when you smack the retainer enough times to break the keepers loose. The resonating bong through the exhaust or sharp pop through the intake turns into a nice anticlimactic muted clank.

 

The parts arrived yesterday and the tools should be here today..so I hope to have the new springs on this weekend.

 

The tools arrived today and the first thing I noticed is that the valve spring compressor is designed to lock in place once the spring is compressed. It looks like a good quality tool, it should make things pretty easy. I'll let you know once I've put it to the test.

 

thats what i use on my heads. For 8 bucks you cant beat it. lol but its hard to compress 160/412 springs by hand... takes alot of muscle. It will work on the car i'm sure but i have only used it off the car

 

now that I think about it I think that I did my springs on my 69 c-10 without exsaust on it

there is soo much room to use air in this situation. I have never tried to do it on a third gen

I was just thinking that you could screw in the male part of the air chuck that normally screw into the air tools in every sparkplug hole

 

Many of my spark plugs are so tight that I can't even get a socket on them. The only way I could apply air with the headers in place would be with some sort of low profile 90* fitting that would screw in, then attach the air hose to that. Even then, with angle plug heads, it would still be tricky.

But I think I'm in pretty good shape with the tools that Sofakingdom recommended. The more I look at this spring compressor, the more I like it...I should be able to report on how it works soon.

 

I think it'll work out great... let us know what happens. You might save LOTS of people some grief or {gasp} extra work when they get into the same situation.

 

OK I removed;
strut tower brace,
spark plugs,
valve covers and
rocker arms.

I installed the crank turning piece and am at TDC on #1.
I whacked the retainer a few times with a socket and big hammer. It bounced a little, but nothing very impressive happened.

I hooked up the spring compressor and can easily compress the springs 1/2" or so until the valve hits the piston, then stops. But the retainer is not separating from the valve. I can push until the stud starts to flex, but it isn't coming apart.

Do I need to take the compressor back off and hit the retainer with a socket and hammer again?
What exactly am I tring to do?
Do I need to hit it hard enough so that the valve hits the piston?

 

Right: until it hits the piston. THat will dislodge them.

The keepers get wedged into the retainers pretty good sometimes, after enough millions of miles.

That is PRECISELY why the air chuck method doesn't work. Air pressure doesn't stand the chance of a snowball in Hades of holding the valve up against that much force. And worse, the air pressure will almost certainly make the engine rotate and the piston go to BDC, which means that then, the valve WILL fall in.

Yup, just whap em good, until they come loose. You won't really have to severely waylay them though, no need to worry about breaking things. You won't be hitting them that hard.

 

Once they come loose what keeps things from flyng off to who knows where? Luck? Should I cover the whole assembly with a shop towel first to retain errant peices?

 

use a magnet.

 

Right; a towel, or magnetize the socket. Both of those will work.

You should be able to find a satisfactory level of whapment that will break it loose, but not completely disassemble it, though.

 

Well, like I said before, that isn't consistent with my experience. I've gotten pretty good at judging the whack required (or, I am by the 2nd or 3rd cylinder), and the air does an excellent job of holding the valve up so the whack is effective. I've done several engines this way, including other brands, and I've never dropped a valve into the cylinder. I'll be doing it again soon when the beehives go in the 396.

 

Here are a few notes on using the "much better" valve spring compression tool:

Make sure that your push rod is out of the way. All the difficulty I as having yesterday can be directly traced to the tool bottoming out on the push rod (a novice mistake).

So far no valve whacking has been necessary. Once the tool is fully compressed, it will lock in place with the valve stem poking WAY out of the spring. Sometimes the locks just fall off spontaneously, other times a little gentle prodding with a screw driver will get them off.

Release old valve spring, put the new springs in place, compress them, put the locks on the valve, release the tool and you're done. It is REALLY easy.

Unfortunately the tool can not be installed on the #8 exhaust valve without being disassembled first. It won't screw on the rocker stud, the AC box is in the way. So you remove an E clip and a pin, screw on the one part then reassemble the rest, do the work, pull the pin again and remove it. When reassembling it, if your E clip springs off to who knows where like mine did you will need another 3/16" E clip.

Now my current problem is that the keeper is hitting my rocker arms before the valve stem. I can tighten the rocker so that it is hitting the keeper and I still have about 12/1000" clearance at the valve stem. So I'v stopped in my tracks until I figure this one out.

 

That's a weird one...

Can you post a pic?

 

It's too tight to really get a picture...but I used my old keepers and everything fit again. It was touching near the base of the rocker, the new keepers were a larger diameter. Keep in mind that the only part of my motor that GM made is the engine block.

 

Yeah you gotta make sure you get the right size parts

 

The problem is that all parts have tolerences. Some vary this way, some that. Every now and then (all the time actually) those variences cause a problem.

 

Why not buy a length of nylon rope to feed through the spark plug hole to hold up the valves? Always worked fine for me - pull the plug, feed in said rope, change spring, pull out rope, repeat. Simple.

 

Rope works. You still have to go through the trouble of pulling the plugs though.

 

did you have the lash cap style keepers?

 

You should use the keepers that came with your new retainers.

Different keepers can have different OD, different angles on the outside of them, where the retainer fits over them, etc.

Stock keepers are stamped sheet metal, rather like stock rockers... they're not really keepers (or rockers), more like keeper- or rocker-shaped objects.

Are you getting "keepers" confused with "retainers"? I can't feature how it's possible for keepers to hit the rocker arm unless the valves have had .100" or more ground off the ends of them.

Stock retainers will not work right with replacement springs.What parts do you have EXACTLY? (part #s) Springs, keepers, retainers, seals, shims. Post the part #s for all of those things. Along with any machine work that's been done to the heads.

 

Here are two picture I took while changing my valve springs. They show just how easy it is with this tool. what you are looking at is the tool installed, the spring compressed and the tool locked in place. I slid the handle off to allow for easier access, it is basically a small jack handle like a piece of pipe.

As you can see the locks are sticking out ready to be removed. Once I got the hang of using it, it was a bout a 2 minute job to install the tool, remove the old spring, install the new one and remove the tool.

Considering it costs $30.00 more than the "cheap" tool, I can't imagine why anyone with $30.00 to their name would not buy this one instead. Just trying to imagine what it would be like to have to hold the spring in place with one hand, while trying not to drop the locks with the other sounds like a nightmare by comparison.

 

My mistake, I was referring to the retainers as "keepers". There are no GM parts involved (new or old). The only actual GM part in my engine that I can think of off hand in the block.

I don't have actual part #'s handy, but they are AFR 210 heads that have been angle milled by AFR to give a 62cc chamber. I also use a small base circle cam and 0.100" longer push rods and CC Pro Magnum 1.6 rockers. The geometry is good in as far as the rocker tip hits the right place on the valve stem. The retainers (old and new) are all from AFR, but the new ones have a slightly larger OD, which caused an interference issue near the base of the rocker arm. If my push rods were 0.010 longer it would probably correct the issue without moving the valve stem contact area too far over. But using the old parts corrected the situation to my satisfaction.

 

Now it makes more sense.

Looks to me like your push rods are SUBSTANTIALLY too short.

Ideally, they should be chosen such that the pattern that the rocker tip makes on the valve stem, is as narrow as possible. Makes almost no difference at all where on the stem tip the rocker tip lands. However, when the push rod length is correct, the rocker tip's "arc" of motion will be centered on the valve, which will result in that narrowest "pattern". This results in the greatest possible valve lift (least lost motion in the rocker), and lowest side load on the valve guides. And, it will raise the rocker up, and get the trunnion area up off of the retainer.

Those springs look like 1.45" OD. Those rockers will ACTUALLY fit 1.55" OD springs (solid roller size) with the right push rods.

 

Actually they are 1.55.

I agreee that a longer pushrod would get the clearance needed, but then the geometry would be slighly less favorable. The decision on pushrod length was made witht the assistance of an experienced local head builder who brought, among other things, an adjustable length push rod so that the correct length could be determined, and a paint like material so that the actuall pattern on the valve stem could be observed. Those tools were used on the fully assembled engine, so I am confident that I have close to the optimal length push rod based both on his experience and the explination I received while observing him take the appropriate measurments.

But the whole discussion is a moot at this point, since I put on the old retainers and everything was OK.

 

Good pictures BTW. Did you use a flood light and no flash?

p.s.AFR's and a Qjet. Sounds like someone besides me knows what kind of horsepower those ugly-ducklings are capable of (qjets that is). Don't worry, we won't tell nobody...

 

Shop light and cell phone actually, and ...
Sorry, but it isn't a Q-Jet.

 

Well I'll be dam.
The idle kicker solenoid had me fooled...

How's it like the new springs? Had a chance to stretch it out yet?

 

Didn't fibish until Sunday and then it started raining...now I have to wait until next weekend to drive it.

 

Another vote for air. 100 PSI works well.

I'd say using the TDC idea and smacking the retainer is a good way to
drive a valve head into the piston. Depending on the set up, you could be dealing with 0.100" to 0.250" of clearance. If the retainer doesn't let go
immediately, the valve will move as well.

I wouldn't even recommend that method for stock motors with deep valve
relief pistons.

 

Just got back from a test drive and everything seems good. It definately pulls harder by 5000 RPM...later tinight I'll see what happens at 7K. I think I've found about 100 missing horses.

 

most guys dont know that spending 50 bucks on some z28 springs on there 100k engine will bring it back to life

snap those valves closed

 

To ESC, from post of 03-03-08, with pictures of different valve compression tool, where did you get this particular tool?

 

Summit Racing sells them.

 

That is where I got mine.

There is a link to it in the 6th post of this thread.