what exactly makes a cam "non-street legal" and what about those cams make them that way and not street legal? any specific numbers that make it that way? in the catologue, i see most just have a regular title , example " Compcams high energy cams and kits". then i see "XFI xtreme fuel injection cams. if a motor is fuel injected does it "HAVE" to use a cam specifically for efi or not? one of the labels is rpm range example 2000-6000 rpm. does that mean that the best power for that cam is within that range? and advanced duration. can that be explained for me? thanks.

 

In California the only street (smog) legal cams have a C.A.R.B. number assigned to them. California Air Resources Board. That just means that the manufacturer (paid a fee) and tested the cam in accordance with the guidelines that CARB dictates, and that the engine still met the smog requirements for that engine in that year/model car.

Basically the thing that makes a cam not smog legal is too much valve overlap, meaning the intake valve and exhaust valve are both open at the same time. This results in raw fuel being sucked out the open exhaust valve into the exhaust manifold, and a failed smog test.

Too much valve overlap will also cause an O2 sensor on a fuel injected engine to read rich and thus drive the computer crazy as it tries to regulate the fuel injector pulse widths to compensate for the rich reading.

 

how do you tell the amount of overlap a cam has? how does a bigger cam change mpg? lift duration etc. Since i live in Pennsylvania emissions aren't that bad.

 

The one thing all legal cams have in common is no overlap at .050", and that would lead you to think that any cam without overlap at .050" would pass the sniffer test, even if it does not have an E.O. number. Well gues what? In my experience, this is exactly the way it works. To find the overlap of any cam, go to the website of the company that ground it. Comp, Crower, Lunati, whoever. They all have this info. Usually in the form of (get specs) or (view cam card) or some other such. Here's an example using a Comp HighEnergy 268H10: Advertised duration, at .006" 268/268 degrees Duration at .050" 218/218 degrees Lobe Separation Angle 110 degrees ground 4 degrees advanced, so installed position is 106 degrees intake centerline Valve timing at .050" is as follows: Intake opens 3 degrees before top dead center Intake closes 35 degrees after botton dead center Exhaust opens 43 degrees before bottom dead center Exhaust closes 5 degrees before top dead center So, this is the info you need: exhaust closing and intake opening. Studying this example, you will realize this cam has 2 degrees of non-overlap at .050", so it will run clean. It does have an E.O. number.

 

Oh, you asked about mpg. The number one thing is never lug the engine. You're better turning 200 rpm too much than 50 rpm not enough. The LSx crowd is able to run larger cams at lower rpm than the guys running carbureted engines, but the no-lugging rule still applies. Someone is going to mention the old tests that say cruise at torque peak, but GM, Ford and others have disproved this many times over. I've found most stock V8s are perfectly able to pull a Camaro or Mustang along at 65 mph at 1600 rpm, but re-gearing for 1800 (along with recalibrating the speedometer) generally either helps mileage, or has no effect. The stock '94-'02 V8 F-twins with T56 come geared for 1430 rpm @ 65 mph, and this is a large part of why they are able to see 30 mpg. But they aren't lugging. But not lugging isn't the whole story. If you're so close to it that you have to downshift for every little hill or headwind, then mileage suffers dramatically. Go up one axle ratio.

 

so lift plays no part in street leagality? its all about valve overlap? and correct me, but does less overlap mean better fuel economy? why not just no overlap?

 

well how do you know what kind of cam to get?

 

wow, you're plunging headlong into advanced engine theory, which is difficult to cover well in a few short posts. If you want my answers I'll share all, I've been a professional automotive machinist/engine builder for 9 years, but it'd be alot quicker to just tell your combo, and what results you want, then get several of us to not only recommend stuff, but also explain why we recommend what we do. Lift: nothing to do with emissions, except going up in rocker arm ratio has a small effect on duration. Going from 1.5:1 to 1.6:1 with the HE268 I used above changes it from 2 degrees non overlap to zero degrees, as seen by the valves. Heads flow more at higher valve lifts, so for performance, run all the lift you can, up to the lift at which the port flow stalls. For the Vortec 350 heads, this is just .475", but most others are good past .500" If mileage is your highest priority, then overlap is bad. For power, overlap is more helpful with tuned headers than with iron exhaust manifolds. but nearly every cam, for a gasoline automotive engine, has some overlap at .004" As to how to know what kind of cam to get, above all, the cam must match your compression. Your dynamic compression ratio must be in a useful range for whatever fuel you are using. Second to that, it must match your head flow and rpm range. If you have great heads, like AFR 180s, but a stock-style TPI, then you cam for the limited rpm range. But you still cam for the heads in that if your exhaust ports are relatively excellent compared to the intake, you run a single pattern, with similar lobes for both intake and exhaust. This is excellent for the AFRs. but if your heads have poor exhaust ports but excellent intakes, such as the iron Vortec 350 heads, you run a dual-pattern cam, with a more agressive exhaust lobe. On a 350, the vortecs are falling off at 5500 rpm, so you don't give them a cam that will peak at 6500 with the AFRs.

 

well i havent started any motor work yet becuase im trying to get as much info as i can before i get started. plan on having it be A daily drive but i just want to be putting out about 325-400 hp and to get the best mpg/power as i can. Plan on running 3.23s and a 700R4 with mild work done to it. the best heads i saw that i liked so far are the Edelbock E-tec 170 aluminums. My earlier question still hasn't been answered: to run efi do you need any special cam cause i see some that are xfi xtreme cams made for fuel injection so i wasn't sure. also a little off topic, but to buy a brand new shortblock off jegs or something can you still slap on 64cc heads and have the motor put out about 400hp with stock pistons crank etc?

 

And for every rule, there is an exception. The GM factory LT4 "Hot" cam had more overlap, so much so that an EGR was unnecessary, yet it remained emissions legal.

 

If you stick a StealthRam on top, run the E-tec 170s, on a 350 with flat-top pistons, run the XFI268 hydraulic roller cam, and use good headers and exhaust, I predict this giving you right around 390-420 crank HP. With 700R-4 and 3.23:1, I predict up to 24 mpg, and low 13s in the 1/4 on drag radials. I sure wouldn't go any bigger than the XFI268 with a 3.23:1 axle. And any stock 350 should survive 400 horses. The bigger issue is rpm. 5500 rpm is the upper limit without things like ARP rod bolts. Then you're okay to 6000. Factory EFI looks for high vacuum, which comes from non-overlap at .050", and virtually any clean cam can work fine with most any EFI, though tuning may still be required, depending on the specific combination. As for the HOT cam, Which specs at 218/228-112, this has 1 degree of non-overlap at .050", so it is clean, but with 1.6:1 rockers to push the lift from .492" to .525", it then has 1 degree of overlap at .050", and either way, this cam does NOT have a California Air Resources Board Exemption Order number. It just works really well for alot of applications.

 

ok well this is off topic, but i saw eagle internally balanced rotating assemblies for 599. they have both flat top and dish and says recommended up to 500hp and that seems like a pretty good deal. and overall much safer than chancing the stock gm 350 short block. the cam i was leaning towards was the compcans magnum cam kit. 292 dur and 501 lift. complete kit for 369.99. but im goona go look at the cam you suggested now.

 

what headers do you suggest?

 

do all cams require computer tuning after installation? does that work off the stock computer?

 

the rules are: you cant change anything unless it is approved for that specific car. so you can use hooker 2055 headers because they have been approved. you cant put on tpi if your car was only approved for tbi - sometimes they check the vin to see if you switched from one to the other. you are not supposed to switch heads, valves, rockers, cams, anything. but as a practical matter they dont tear your engine down to see if you stuck a zz4 cam into your 305 - as long as the computer is programed to give the right specs when driving.
if you had tpi with 12 bolt pattern you cant use vette heads with an 8 bolt patters because they use a different egr set up system, that is not part of the manifold. there are tons of rules. and not one of them is made up by someone who actually works on cars.
the carb people want to outlaw black cars because they effect global warming - if there is such a thing as man made global warming.
so what is carb approved for one car with one engine is not actually approved for the same car with a different engine.
if you think that is nuts start looking at cats - what was legal on 12/31/08 is illegal to put on on 1/1/09.
but big brother has our best interests at heart, we are just to stupid to know what to do and what is right so they have to tell us.

 

Tony should know better than I, and I'm not saying he doesn't or is mistaken, but I believe he is mistaken, as GM offered the TPI in the RS for the B4C applications.
Further, if your choice of heads do have an E.O. number, which the ETecs do not, then no worries. That 292 degree, .501 cam won't pass a smog test, will require dramatic retuning, and isn't what you want. If you need to be technically legal, Edelbrock offers other 170cc heads, that are just as good, or you could step up to AFR 180cc heads.

 

well than what number are legal and what aren't

 

im still confused about the part that all aftermarket cams need to be tuned by the computer. can somebody explain a little bit

 

attila you have perfect logic but that assumes that the people who made the laws are logical.
at one time your view was acceptable under cal laws. up until 01/01/09 you could even move the cats around.
but now its different.
if you car has an E for the 8th letter of the vin you dont get to put on tpi even though tpi was what some 305's had, because the e means LO3 and that was a tbi not a tpi, and your not supposed to change anything that can effect the smog of the car. you are supposed to go to the dmv and have a smog ref look at it and tell you yes or no. there was a dual cat option too but now you cant just put that on your car, you need a ref to say its ok.
the rules are pretty stupid.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm is where you can start looking. when you have that memorized and pass a 3 day written test I will give you some code sections governing this too. but remember there will be tests and pop quizes and the CARB people reserve the right to change what is a correct answer even as you take the test.
here is the afttermarket site http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/aftermkt.htm
good luck.

sorry i have to edit this and add in that there are also the California Code of Regulations - that are almost like laws but not exactly. so you will be tested on them too. then there is the business and professions code that deal with exhaust installers, the vehicle code which deals with the vehicle, and a few others where vehicle stuff is added in just to confuse everyone.

but attila is right - what he says make perfect sense - if it were only that way.
that is why im using my stock original engine - i bought the car new so i know its original - so that i have as many original numbers on things as possible.

so if you put tpi on a tbi car and its 1990 or later - you can use a post 1990 tpi but you have to find one with "tuned port injection" on the throttle body and you need to spend $30.00 or so to get the metal distributor cover - after 1990 they were plastic and a dead giveaway at a smog checking station.

you should use heads that look as much like oem as possible - even getting center bolt ones if your oem were center bolt.
no one is going to take th engine apart and check your cam, but you should get a chip tuned for smog legal operation, and maybe a 2nd one tuned for runs at the strip.

yes it is all very confusing. when you have idiots making laws for political reasons you get idiotic laws.
in the early 60's they said they wanted cars in cal that had seat blets, put promised everyone they would never require you to use them. then they changed the laws and said they were going to require you to use them but they would never stop anyone just to see if they were using them or even if they thought you were not using them. now the law is they can stop and check to see if you are using them. and the fine went from 10.00 to hundreds.

carb approved 2055 headers with the air pipes on them. carb numbers for universal cat. ok good news from the cat back you can do what you want as long as its not too loud - 98 db i think but im not sure.
but after 2012 - i think its 2012 - no black cars. henry ford would turn over in his grave with that one. remember what he said - you can get a model t in any color you want - provide you want it in black.

 

here is another one to look at http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_BARResource...C-summer08.pdf a bunch of looney leftists women telling men how they can work on their cars. pretty soon they are going to stick a monitor on your tv and tell a sports hating woman that she can decide how much sprots you can watch - for your own good and the good of society.

notice the first sentence - have you seen our prblication with black balloons, it starts? its all being done FOR THE CHILDREN! what garbage. its being done to control people in their daily lives that is why its being done. these are the same people who want us to quit using fosil fuel, not use nuke power, not use coal - ok its a fosil fuel too, but dont want us buring wood. if they could we would not be able to eat meat, eat plants [they hve feelings too] and not eat fish, or eggs - poor helpless chickens to be - but you can kill as many babies as you want.
soon we will not have roads, cities, electricity, we cant kill animals for food [its just wrong] and we can all die and MOTHER EARTH will prosper.
barf.

 

Seriously? I hadn't heard nor read that yet. If that's the case, Big Brother and his little sister Nancy are getting just too comfortable around us. It's time we took our country back.

Any idea of their excuse for reasoning or "logic" behind such a decision? What happens when the "global warming" turns to global cooling and solar absorbing colors become a GOOD thing?

Waiting for Richter Number Nine...

 

dead serious. they think that black absorbes too much heat so its bad for mother earth and they might actually say no to black cars.
its been all over the news lately. i will look to see if i can find the story and edit it in.

here is one http://overlawyered.com/2009/03/cali...an-black-cars/

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/upto...k-car-ban.html is a story where carb said they decided not to do it. they will hve to wait until no one is looking.

and vader 17,000 postings? darn you are busy. i have to admit you moderators on these boards do a pretty good job.

 

but i thought if your car is 20 years or older there is no emissions so none of that stuff like computer tuning is necessary. i live in pa so i really dont need to worry too much about emissions anyway

 

That does it, I'm taking my Camaro and my 454 and moving to Africa. Someday.

 

no atilla - your taking your camaro and conquering africia - your are atilla - you take no prisoners - there shall be no fords or chryslers or handas, or toyotas left alive. and then there will be the peace of the camaro. lol

 

Cute, but I'm not Attila the hun. And we still haven't answered the OP about the tuning to go with the cam.
Mostly the fuel map and the timing map. But I don't tune EFI cars, I pay for tuning, so I can't get very far into that.

 

well the fun then. but i already knew that - just making a joke for you.
but he has not told us his engine size, if he has map or maf, what year his engine is, none of the things that would give us a clue. he has talked abound a 350 but never said that it what he has.
i still dont know if its pre87 with a carb or not. the only thing we know is he wants a cam and those depend on what engine, what heads, what he has to feed gas to it, what exhaust he has.
if he were to say he had a 305 with tpi i would suggest a zz4 - its cheap or a hot cam. it all depends on what he is starting with.
maybe its earlier than 88 because he says it is 20 years old - but i dont know.
maybe he should post what he is starting with and then we can be a lot more help.
is he planing an engine swap?
i wanted to build a nice engine too but smog ****'s here killed that plan.
so i suggest he actually give us what he has and then you guys out there can hone in on a nice engine for him.

 

F-body=plastic cover
corvette=metal cover

I'd say 99.99% of smog techs have no clue about stuff like that and since they are easily swapped and have no bearing on emissions, who cares.

Anyway, if you are in Pennsylvania and you do not have smog testing where you are at (yet) there is no need to worry about emission compliant parts or not. There are no federal smog police who are going to write you a ticket for violating Memorandum 1A or the Clean Air Act of 1990. If you choose to use "legal" parts, then if (should I say when?) they do emissions testing where you are you at least have parts that are "legal". Keep in mind though, just because a part is legal does not mean you get a free pass. If your car fails the test the first thing they will blame is each and every aftermarket component on the car, barring something obvious like a visibly broken sensor. Likewise, its easy enough to pick an appropriate part that is not "legal" and as long as its not visible, like a cam, if its tuned right it'll pass the sniff test fine.

Sounds like you do not have the capability to tune yourself, so I'd stay away from the XFI268. If the goal is 325hp at the crank, you can get that with a lot more mild cam. You'd probably need something bigger like the XFI in duration to get near 400, but that is also going to depend on what intake you are using. If this is a TPI, I would definitely spend the time and effort to tune the car. That is the only way you are going to get the most power and best mileage out of it. The computer as is can only do so much to correct things, and if you start sticking parts in there that it doesnt know about eventually it will get past the point it can compensate for and it just wont run all that great. I'd look for a cam with an intake duration in the 215-220 range and go from there. Choose something that has a lift spec that works with the heads (probably in the .500-.540 range), the XFI cams have a lot of lift and you likely would need to swap out springs on those Etec heads.

 

actually the f-body has a metal cover up to 90 and in 91 it changed to a plastic one. if you go and polish the intake it shows up - you cant polish the plastic ones.
and in cal they are real nuts about stuff like that. it is going to be ahrd to get them not to notice the exhaust, but everything has a carb number on it.
but its the little things that can trip you up here and get them looking into things you may not want them to see.
we even have a group that wants to outlaw black cars - you know they are nuts.
and they even have their own dmv cops here that send cars into smog stations to see if they really look, and if they are caught they lose their license.

 

No they dont. I've owned an 85, 86, 88, and 2 89 TPI's, two of those I bought from the original owner. Its a F-body/vette thing.

 

I don't doubt you guys, I just want to point out that I'm in the habit of creating a combo first, then worrying about details like valvesprings once the expensive parts are finalized. He liked those ETec 170s, and a 350/700R-4/3.23:1 combo, I picked a serious cam that would match, then recommended a StealthRam. Why? Because there's a guy south of here running this combo, on my advice, but he has a 3.42:1 gear, and is running low 13s and getting 23 mpg @ 60 mph. I figure the different gearing, and slowing down to 55, would allow 24 mpg. I had nothing to do with the tuning, I did advise on valvesprings among other things, but never found out which springs he ended up with. He got mad at the a$$ who owned the machine shop I was working at, and took his stuff, including the XFI268 and HSR, and took it to another shop. I later had a minute with him in the staging lanes at the dragstrip in Magna, that's when he showed me gas receipts proving 23 mpg, and I saw the 13.2?? on sticky Mickeys. I've neither seen nor heard from him since.

 

funny cuz my tpi system is off an 88 and i have one, my room mates gta has one but i dont see the point in arguing this because ive never known anyone to be failed for having the distributor show.