Okay, I started my new engine for the first time yesterday. It fired up and ran like a champ for about 5 minutes. Oil pressure was a stable 50-60 PSI. It was a little bit rough but just needed a timing adjustment. I started adjusting timing and the car died. I started turning the key and the engine started backfiring very loudly. Obviously, timing was horrible out. Finally, the battery died so I quit for the night.

I went back today and charged the battery and tried to start it again. The engine would barely turn over with a fresh battery. I went ahead and put on a new starter because I used an old one and jsut figured it was dying due to age and high compression. With a new battery and new starter the engine would still only turn over slowly and almost seemed like something was holding it up.

I am lost and have no idea. Why would it run so well on the first start up and then turn over so very slowly today? Is it possible the auto tranny could be somehow holding back the engine. Perhaps the fluid cooling lines are reversed and pressure cannot escape?

Any help or suggestions would be amazingly appreciated!

 

TTT

 

Having the timing too far out will make it crank very slow as well. Set base timing (static) as close as you can get it, and try again.

 

Is it possible for the engine to not crank over hardly at all if timing is too far out?

 

Agree. With the timing too far advanced the starter motor can't overcome the motor's efforts at igniting the charge. It's essentially sparking the cylinder while the pistons are still moving up and trying to force the pistons backwards. Spin the dist the other way.

 

I disagree, sounds like your engine ate something, and you have a cocked piston or something bent, hopefully you didnt crack the block...seen someone eat a 1/4 inch nut and do the same thing your talking about, having the timing that far out, the starter motor puts out a ton of torque and will over come any kind of timing issue....

 

No it won't. Having worked on cars since I was old enough to turn a wrench, I have a great deal of experience with just this sort of issue. Set the static timing, and take it from there.

 

The weird part was that it was turning over just fine the day prior except for the large backfires and the slow battery. Even after the backfires the engine was moving relatively fast. The only variable the following day was a disconnected the ECU to set base timing and moved the distributor to where I thought it was previously.

Should I pull the plugs out and see if it will rotate?

 

Yes pull the plugs disconnect the fuel pump and ignition and see if the starter cranks it over, if not...i was probably right...one of the plugs could possibly be damaged as well due to something in the cylinder

 

In your case i would do what the last guy suggested. Pull out all the plugs and turn it over. If it spins freely then youre ok. Set number one piston to top dead center. Pull out the distributor then replace it with the rotor pointing at cylinder 1. Then start it up and set your static timing.

 

make sure when you bump the 1# top dead center, that both valves are fully closed ie...the valve springs are not compressed, so you know your on the compression stroke and not on the exhaust stroke

 

When setting initial timing do I put the balancer at 6 degress BTDC and then point the distributor with spark hitting cylinder 1 and then go to the timing light?

 

You have to make sure the #1 contact on the distributor cap is very close to the rotor. Doesn't matter where the rotor is pointing. People just do that to make things simpler to work on. Get it pointing at number 1, put a piece of tape or something on the intake or anywhere so that once you get the dizzy cap on you know exactly where the rotor was pointing and line that up with your #1 lug accordingly.

 

Want to test ploegi's idea with a minimum of effort? Disconnect the coil wire and see if the starter motor turns it over. As someone once said, the simplest explanation that fits the facts is usually the right one. If that doesn't work we can then go into the more exotic (and time consuming) diagnoses.

 

oh yeah i dont know what trans your running, but having the cooler lines reversed isnt gonna do much but change which direction it flows through the cooler lol

 

Well, here is what I did and my findings.

I took out all spark plugs and still struggled to get the engine to turn over. The spark plugs all looked good but were covered in fuel and small amounts of black soot.

After loosening the rocker arms I was able to turn over the motor with a breaker bar and socket on the balancer. I spun the motor over by hand and had a couple ounces of fuel pour out of the spark plug holes of cylinders 1, 2, 5, 7, and 8. Maybe the others as well but I did not notice. The motor was not a breeze to turn over but was smooth and I only felt the resistance of the rotating assembly, balancer, etc. No weird sounds or anything like that.

As for background on the engine. It is a 350 bored .04 over with Eagle crank, rods, clevite bearings, speed pro pistons/rings. Block is zero decked and is set up for a roller cam. When short block was complete it took around 25-35 PSI to spin the motor over and was extremely smooth. It has the Lingenfelter 74216 cam and high flow TPI intake. I put on AFR 180 heads. Estimated static compression is 10.25:1 and dynamic is 8.1:1 I used 30 lb bosch injectors and had a custom chip burned by PCM's4Less. I have a built 700R4 and 2,600 B&M holeshot converter.

 

You've washed the cylinders down with fuel which caused the rings to bind on a dry cylinder wall. This could have been caused by continually cranking the motor over without it starting or some other issue that dumped fuel into the intake.

If too much has gotten into the crankcase you'll want to change the oil. You'll also want to get some oil on the cylinder walls before trying to crank it.

 

Thanks! Yeah, I was suprised to see so much fuel come out of the cylinders. Should I decrease the fuel pressure? It is currently set at 50 PSI with the pump running and no vacuum line on the regulator.

Secondly, can I just spray WD-40 or something in the spark plug hole or do I need oil.

Lastly, could I have damaged the rings by trying to crank the motor with 0 oil on the cylinder walls?

 

No the timing mark on the balancer and the "0" mark on the pointer should line up when you are at TDC. And yes make sure both valves are closed. And yes if there was a ton of fuel dumped into the cylinders you may have indeed wiped out the crosshatch in the cylinder walls glazing them up again. Hopefully there wasnt too much liquid fuel in the cylinders. This could cause hydro lock and bend rods and other nasty stuff. Put a small amount of motor oil into the affected cylinders.(only enough to lube the cylinder walls) The best way to find out if your rings are damaged is a compression test. I'm not sure you should have your fuel pressure set so high. 50psi seems a bit much for 30 pound injectors when you dont have a supercharger or any other power adder.

 

I do indeed think there was hydro lock because the starter would not turn over the engine until the spark plugs were removed. The only good thing I guess is that the engine did not run this way. The engine ran for a while but died after I started messing with the timing. It cranked over quite a but afterwards but did not run. The next day when I came back is when I had the issue with the starter not turning over the engine.

Now, something that did not make sense to me is that the engine still did not turn over easily until I loosened the rocker arms. Can rocker arms that are too tight cause the engine not to turn over?

What should I set my fuel pressure at? I know stock is 42 PSI but that also is with much smaller injectors.

 

If your valve lash was not properly set that will cause problems too. You stated that the next day was when the real problem set in? It could be possible that your injectors leaked down overnight causing puddles of fuel to form in the cylinders. Are these injectors new? Since this is a V8 find a Chilton's or similar manual and look up what your fuel pressure is stock and set it to that. Your stock fuel pressure is always your starting point. You set your valve lash by SLIGHTLY tightening down the rocker arm nut(the valve must be closed. No cam pressure on the lifter) and spinning the pushrod with your other hand until you just start to feel resistance then give it another 1/4 to 1/2 turn ONLY. From the get go you could have had way too much fuel entering the engine. This is bad for breaking in a new motor. You mentioned you had a custom chip burned. Did they burn it with those injectors and fuel pressure setting in mind?

 

Valve lash was definitely off after checking last night. I printed the procedure so that I can lash them correctly tonight.

The first day the engine ran rough but ran for about a max of 2-3 minutes. It died when I started adjusting timing and then backfired loudly a few times. That is when I quit for the day. I am suspecting the timing was way too advanced and after continued cranking I got the fuel in the cylinders.

The injectors are not new but were just pressure tested by Cruzin Performance.

Stock fuel pressure if 42 PSI. I will definitely crank down the pressure to stock.

The chip was burned for 30 lb injectors but only stock fuel pressure. I am guessing that added pressure just gave the engine more fuel than it could handle. I am just glad that it did not run for long.

I really appreciate your help!

 

with all that fuel in the cylinders, make sure you change the oil so you dont loose bottom end lubrication. Hopefully things work out for you.

 

Spinning the pushrod is a very bad practice, you can actually tighten it way to far and then go another half of turn...wow!...the best practice for push rods is to get it close and move the push rod up and down between the lifter and rocker arm until you can not move it back and forth anymore freely then go an additional half of a turn

 

Oh yeah listen to this guy some more as well, i told you something more then moving your distributor caused your problems....but hes been turning wrenches since he was born, just hasnt mastered it yet...

 

i have built about 20 engines this way and NEVER had any issues whatsoever. The method you talk about is the same one just performed a different way. And from what he posted back after his investigation of his problem, he had the fuel pressure way too high causing large puddles of fuel in his cylinders and the valve lash mis adjusted. His engine didnt "eat" anything. I am giving advice based on personal experience and not just flaming people because i disagree with what they say because i think im right.

 

Is there really a need for a post like this here? Does it help any?

 

well i was more correct then saying the distributor timing caused all the problems, i knew there was something internal/mechanically wrong...I will post things becuase must of the people that post things are shaddy tree mechanics, and 88ttop and there similiar but very different and my way is fool proof, you and spin pushrods for days tightening them up....you do what works for you, but ill explain things the easiest and must correct way so i dont screw someones working process up, so bad mouth me if you want, when im wrong correct me...please

 

Sometimes the shadetree mechanics are the best ones. I started out that way then i worked at #1 Cochran as a tech for 2 years and was working under a master tech. The technique i posted was one he showed me As for something being foolproof, if you make something foolproof, someone will make a better fool

 

Well last night I correctly lashed the valves by putting cylinder #1 at TDC. I then proceeded down the list i have on which valves to tighten. I jiggled all pushrods up and down until they stopped and then took them another quarter turn if they would go a quarter turn. Some of them I barely had to move to get them tight. I then tightened the poly lock, spun the motor 360 degrees and lashed the valves that they list dictated. I spun the motor over 1 last time and now cylinder #1 is on its compression stroke at 6 degree BTDC.

I checked the oil and it is full of gas, so I am going to drain it and put in Lucas break in lube (high zinc), 3 quarts of Mobil 10W30, and 1 quart of Marvel Mystery Oil.

I lubed the upper cylinders and put the spark plugs back in.

Next, I am going to install the distributer and try to fire it.

Am I missing anything?

 

i think either the lucas(good stuff) or the marvel will be good i dont see a need to use them both. If you use the marvel put a little in the cylinders as your lube not a ton just enough to lube the rings. And it sounds like you have everything in order. Make a final check on your coolant levels etc.

 

i wouldnt worry about coolant levels or anything like that to try an initial start up...just a waste of time if it doesnt start and you happen to have to pull a head or further maitenance.

 

Quote:
"i wouldnt worry about coolant levels or anything like that to try an initial start up...just a waste of time if it doesnt start and you happen to have to pull a head or further maitenance." ty_rich

Please don't make a blanket statement that's not universally true. Although we can surmise that Wildj is running a roller cam because he's FI, we can't be certain of this. It would DEFINITELY be important to have proper coolant levels in order to execute flat tappet break-in as soon as possible after first start up.

I would recommend it any time due to the extra heat that can be generated quickly by an engine that is potentially started out of tune.

 

naf, you are correct, I am running a roller cam.

I drained the oil tonight and the oil was diluted with about 2-3 quarts of gas! I could not believe that much would be pushed through. I knew the timing was off and I tried to start it a lot but WOW.

I drained everything out that I could. I then put in the drain plug but did not fill the oil. Instead I ran the pump for about 5 minutes without the key on to see if the injectors were leaking. I assumed if the injectors were leaking they would bleed through the cylinders and I would find it in the oil pan tomorrow.

I am running 30 lb injectors and had 50 PSI at the rails. How far should I decrease it based upon the amount of fuel in the oil? Also, when the pump is running I hear a "hiss: like noise in the rail. There is no leak but perhaps just turbulence in the return line due to the Walbro 255 pump. Is that noise normal?

Thanks Again Everyone! Have a Great Thanksgiving!

 

Recommend you check with the group that burned your chip. They will have programmed it for a specific injector/pressure.

 

Well, today went much better; however I still had a few issues. Started and ran relatively smooth with no knocks, odd sounds, etc.

Engine started, ran well as long as the throttle was open about 50%. Not sure what was happening but as soon as I let off the pedal it would start to die.

While running, the headers started glowing bring red, so I shut off the engine. I thought timing was probably still off and tried to adjust it but could not get the engine back running. It would run for a second and then die.

So I need the experts opinion on what to do next.

1. Why did I have to keep throttle open about 50% to run? What should I do next?

2. Is it normal for headers to turn red?

Thanks guys, we are getting closer! I want to drive her this weekend!

I appreciate your help!

Josh

 

Sounds like it is running excessively rich..... headers are glowing as unburned gas from the cylinders burns in the headers...... Is your temp sensor (the one for the computer, should be in the front of the intake manifold) hooked up? Is it reading correctly? (the gauge in the dash is an entirely separate system, so, it won't tell you a thing.) What is your fuel pressure set at?

 

The temperature sensor is brand new and connected. Fuel pressure is set at 40 PSI. I am running 30 lb injectors but the chip was burned for them. Is is possible the timing is still off?

 

Yes, it's possible the timing is still off. Timing set too late will also result in excess fuel burning in the exhaust-the spark ignites the charge too late and all of the fuel is not burned before the exhaust valve opens. Not wanting to idle points more towards a too-rich condition though so I'm with ploegi, although if timing is off it won't help much.

If you've got a scanner you can verify that the temp sensor is sending a good reading to the ECM and it's not stuck in warm-up mode. Another good reason to have filled your fluids...

 

I tested the TPS and it was only reading .1 - .2 volts at idle and would only go to 1.2 at WOT. So, I replaced it and the car fires right up and does much better. However, it revs right up to 2,100 RPM and stays there. Although I did not let it run for very long because the headers turned red again. I tested the new TPS and it is right within spec.

A mechanic friend of mind stopped by and said my distributor is likely off by a tooth causing the timing to be retarded even though it is set a 6 BTDC. He instructed me to pull the distributor and drop it back in so that it moves back one tooth.

It sounded much better and had throttle response, which was much better than before.

 

Um. The gear being off a tooth is irrelevant. If the timing is set by the light, then it is correct. It just alters WHERE the number one post on the distributor is when the engine IS timed. Did you disconnect the "set timing" connector when you were doing that?

Is the butterfly in the throttle body closing all the way when you let off the gas? IAC stuck open? Other vacuum leaks?

 

Yeah, after thinking about it I did not understand how the distributor could be off by a tooth!

I did disconnect the set timing connector. However, the car will not idle below 2,000 so setting it at 6 BTDC means at 2,000 RPM the timing is retarded.

I guess my next step is determine why it is idling so high. Once I can figure that out I can set base timing and then reconnect the ECU.

All sensors and vacuum lines are new, so I am really confused why it is idling so high. I disconnected the IAC so it should be okay.

 

Just disconnecting it won't help if it IS stuck open. It will still be open, and you will get a high idle. Check around for the tech article for setting base idle, its on the site somewhere, it will give the correct procedure for getting the IAC to close completely. See if that makes any difference.

 

IAC is totally closed and timing is now set correctly. The car is running well and headers are not turning red anymore. However, I start the car and it jumps to 2,000 RPM. It starts to decline to about 1,500 RPM before it surges up to
3,000 RPM and stays there.

TPS has correct voltage, computer is not throwing any codes, engine is running well with no backfiring.

All vacuum lines are new, as well as gaskets. However, I did struggle to get the gaskets lined up on the intake runners. I may have pinched something.

Does this issue sound like a vacuum leak? If not, what else could it be?

Thanks!

 

Do you have a vacuum gauge you can plug into it?

 

It was a vacuum leak in the plenum and runner gaskets! It is running well now! Check out the link below and let me know what you think. You may have to copy and paste.

http://www.dropshots.com/wildjyoung

 

You need to open the garage door man! you guys are gonna die of carbon monoxide poisoning!

Car sounds good and it looks like it's gonna be a pretty sweet ride when you get done.