bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I usually just search to find simple answers to questions like this, but I couldnt find a definitive answer in a search.

What is the max lift that can be used with stock 096 (or 906 I cant remember) Vortec heads with stock springs? I am planning a cam swap, and dont want to have to mess with the valves at all.

Thanks!

skinny z

The Scoggin-Dickey (GM Performance parts distributor) states that the stock Vortec limit is .450".
I ran them with a .454" cam and stock springs.
With a cam upgrade you may want to upgrade your springs as well. I know the stock springs will give you trouble with increased lift and higher rpm.
The Comp Beehive spring is a drop in replacement and you'll be good to .550"+ and more than 6000rpm.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Problem limiting lift is not the springs but the stock retainer to valve guide clearance.
Requires machine work to guide boss or aftermarket springs/retainers as noted above

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I dont want to swap springs, retainers, or anything, I have neither the tools, or knowhow to do that.

I was looking at a cam with .480/.480 lift.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I was thinking about this one:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-180305-08/

But with this new information (thanks guys) it seems that this one may be just what I am looking for:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-14097395/

Only thing it doesnt tell me is the RPM range.

Atilla the Fun

That's the one used in GMPP's RamJet 350 crate engine. It makes peak HP at 5100. Strong low-rpm TQ, making over one ft-lb per C.I. down at 1500 rpm. Impressive.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Wow, thanks, so I guess thats a good cam?

It says for 1996-2000 engines, and my engine is the 87+ 1pc rms roller block.
Will thic cam have a real choppy idle with the lobe seperation at 109?

Will it work?

Atilla the Fun

LSA by itself tells you nothing about idle quality. When you put it properly in context of the durations, then you see this thing is a smooth idling cam, with 17 degrees of non-overlap at 0.050"
Yes you can use it in your block without any issues at all.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Allright, thanks for the info. I think the cam in my engine is holding it back, I believe that my engine can push out alot more power than it currently is, with a good cam swap, I have a stock roller cam in it now (from a truck, I think) I really want a choppy idle, with good 1k-5k rpm powerband.

What cam will supply me with both of these, without a spring swap? Assuming that this is possible while keeping the lift at ~.450.

Atilla the Fun

If that's what you want, you need a custom ground cam, and a pre-computer carburetor. Blatantly illegal. And a choppy idle still doesn't work with having power down low.
The same excessive overlap that gives a choppy idle also makes for a lack of low-rpm torque. the overlap causes lots of lean misfire, no matter how rich you get the carb, so that's why it creates a choppy idle. If you're having enough lean misfires at idle, say, 900 rpm, to make a choppy idle, then you're gonna have some misfiring, and thus a loss of low-rpm torque, up to whatever rpm the headers start scavenging. For a 350 with 1.625" long-tubes, this is around 3000 rpm.
Forget the choppy idle. You can't get what you want. Current technology won't allow it. And BTW, adding a complete MSD ignition system will smooth a choppy idle somewhat, so definitely don't try that.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Okay, I was unaware of this. Technically I think my engine is illegal anyway, haha.

I still believe my cam is holding my engine back, and would like to do a cam swap in the near future. I want a cam that has good 1-2k thru 5-5.5k rpm power. Currently I run a stock (truck??) cam in my motor.

Will the cam I posted above (The GMPP one) add significant power to my engine? What kind of numbers are we talking here?

Thanks.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

This ramjet (the motor that has the cam I am looking to get) doesnt seem to make significant power.

My motor has similar heads with larger valves, .040 overbore, performer intake, higher compression, and other parts seem quite similar.

Heres that motor:
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...9120&engCat=sb

I assume my motor will have quite a bit more power over this engine?

Atilla the Fun

the RamJet 350 makes 350 hp at 5100 rpm, and a real 390 ft-lbs at 3500 rpm. It uses vortec heads, 1.6:1 rockers, and that unique intake is comparable in results to an Edelbrock RPM AirGap. I'd suggest you don't need the RPM AirGap, and would do better with the Edelbrock EPS Vortec intake. I'd expect a hair over 400 ft-lbs that way. Assuming 1.625" long-tubes. 355 hp should be there, also.

Atilla the Fun

You weren't seriously hoping for 400 horses, were you?

Atilla the Fun

You have the EXACT same heads as the RJ, you aren't going to make better than 355 hp at 5100 rpm with out-of-the-box Vortec heads. 400 HP at 5600 rpm is possible, but it takes more than 0.450" lift, and it takes better springs. And if you do that, your torque curve is basically "on" from 2600-5400 rpm.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Eh, I guess I had false hopes, than. The RJ has 1.94/1.5 valves, whereas my heads have 2.02/1.6 valves.

I dont have longtubes, I have edelbrock shorties and a y-pipe through an 80 series.

Knowing what I have, will this cam swap be worthwhile? What approx horsepower do I have now, and what would it be after the cam swap?

thx

Atilla the Fun

Your heads didn't leave GM with 2.02/1.60, so when you had those done, you shoulda had the guides done, too. Also, 2.02-ing Vortecs doesn't actually help. I did this back when I had access to a flow bench. A brand new SuperFlow 1020 with every option.
If you do the RJ cam, expect about 340 hp, but a big jump in mid-range torque. Stock truck vortecs made no more than 330 ft-lbs.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Im not doubting you or anything, and I really appreciate all the help, but that just doesnt sound right to me? I mean, I figured my motor was pushing close to that number as-is....

Thats the way I bought the heads, I bought them from the same machine shop that honed my motor, mounted the rods on the pistons, etc...

Maybe if the heads were done up like that, maybe they can accept a larger cam? Is there any way I can tell? Can I take some sort of measurement or will pics help?

Would it be worth the 2-days of work and about $280 it would take for the swap?

Thanks again

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Didnt want to start a new thread, hopefully it fits here.

I have been thinking that eventually I want to pull my heads and bring them to a machine shop and get the new guides, springs, and screw in studs done, so I can put a larger cam in my motor. I feel this motor can push alot more than it is with an upgrade like this. I figure if I get the heads built around the cam, thats better than just slapping something together and hoping for the best.

What is a good cam for a daily/cruising car, that will give me a real choppy exhaust note? What would the cam specs be?

What springs should be used?

What kind of retainers are needed?

The screw in studs should be 3/8", correct?

Should I get aluminum bodied full roller rockers for this? Can I go 1.6r?

I want to squeeze as much power out of this as I can. What is a good HP to shoot for?

THANKS!

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Let me try to line something up to see if it will work.

Cam:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-180325/

Springs:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-986-1/

Retainers:
No idea???

Rockers:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66908/
(Do they need to be self aligning?)

Atilla the Fun

You have it backwards. You don't do the heads around the cam, you choose the cam based on what the heads want. And whichever valves you have, Vortecs run best with an intake lift of less than 0.481" at the valve. COMP has lots of lobes of all durations that'll keep the lift in the sweet spot.
Vortecs are out of air on a 350 by 6000 rpm, so you don't need more than 300 pounds of open pressure from the springs, so you also don't need screw-in studs.
You seem very eager to waste as much cash as possible in all the wrong directions.
You can't believe any computer simulation dyno programs, I've tried them all, NONE of them can consistently stay within 10% of the numbers I get from a real dyno.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Allright.

Can springs and retainers be replaced without removing the heads?

Which springs and retainers do you recommend?

with ~.480/.480 lift, and a low lobe seperation, will I get my choppy idle?

Thanks.

thomas1976

What induction is on the engine?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...-ultimate.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...i-buildup.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...-headflow.html

Atilla the Fun

Choppy idle has nothing to do with lift, it comes entirely form overlap, which is a function of duration and lobe separation. For any given lobe sep., the more duration you add, the more overlap you will have.
But that's not the right way to do it. These days, we choose durations to match the heads, then tighten up the lobe sep.
Speccing that cam will be easy, if that's all that matters, but it's not. It'd help if you could please remind me of your cubic inches, trans, axle ratio, and are your pistons dished or flat top.
Changing springs on the engine is not that much of a challenge. Lets get your info, and then spec a cam before picking springs.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Allright, thanks guys, here are the specs I can name off, off the top of my head.

87+ Roller 350 1pc RMS block
Bored .040
Flat top pistons with valve reliefs
GM PM Rods
906 Vortec heads with 2.02/1.6 valves
Stock crank, and cam
Edelbrock performer vortec intake
Edelbrock 600cfm 1406 carburetor
MSD distributor, and wires
ACDelco plugs
Edelbrock shorty headers and y-pipe through 80 series muffler

WC T5 Transmission

3.27 BW 9-bolt posi rear

(So the specs you needed, Atilla, were: 357, T5, 3.27, Flat)

Atilla the Fun

The 3.27:1 is a bit at odds with your static compression, for what you're proposing, you'd do well to consider 3.73:1 rear gears from Randy's.
You can use a COMP 08-000-8, 3052/3053-110 if you want that nasty full-race sound and a powerband that's mostly 3000-5500, but if you do your Vortecs my way and get a bigger carb, will pull hard past 6000. This one really wants those 3.73s. It's not too far from COMP's smallest Thumpr, but the lift is right for Vortecs, and the overlap will allow 3.27:1 gearing.
If you'd like a different result, I'll spec something else.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

3k-5.5k seems like a decent powerband, considering you cant really have that agressive choppy idle with a lower powerband. I don't think my current configuration will even pull 6k rpms, lol.

When I search that PN, this is what I get:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-08-000-8/

It doesnt show any specs?

Heres a sound I like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRD8k8Ylxg8

(I know its not the best thing to do to pick a cam by its sound, but I can't help it )

Atilla the Fun

Of course that's what comes up. When I spec a cam, you have to call COMP directly for it.
COMP requires that custom grinds be a part number 000. The 08 prefux specifies '87-up SBC, the -8 suffix specifies roller rather than flat-tappet.
That's why I followed it up with the lobe numbers and the lobe separation. And unless you follow that up with something, they automatically grind in 4 degrees of advance, which suits this combo just fine.
IF, for another combo, I only want 2 degrees of advance, then after the lobe sep I would add +2 to the grind number. But don't do that, your app does call for the standard 4 degrees.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Allright, that makes sense, thats what I was thinking.

Okay, so I get a cam ground like that, which springs would be needed? Can I use 1.6 rockers, or would I use 1.5, self aligning?

What power numbers are we lookin at?

Atilla the Fun

No, you can't use 1.6:1 intake rockers. You could use them for the exhaust, but it might require spending more on springs and machining, which isn't really necessary.
As is, most any springs would work acceptably.
Get a bigger carb, and a better intake manifold, you should be looking at over 430 crank HP.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Thats a good HP number!

If any springs would work, why cant I use the ones that are on it already? Or can I, and just replace the retainers?

I thought the performer intake was one of the best? What intake/carb do you suggest?

Atilla the Fun

Do you need a cup of coffee? :-) I typed "MOST any springs". Your stock springs suck, but your stock Vortec retainers are among the best at any price. They're very light, but they're steel. Perfect.
The Performer is choking the air before it can get to your heads. The basic Performer only flows about 214 cfm. You'll need either Edelbrock's Performer RPM AirGap Vortec, or Weiand's Stealth AirStrike Vortec. the Weiand is a better fit but costs you about 5 ft-lbs at all rpm compared to the RPM AirGap.
Either way, you need a 750 carb, not your puny 600.
I know the traditional formula says a 600 is fine for a 350 to 6000 rpm, but the dyno says otherwise, and we always believe the dyno over an old math prediction.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

I KNEW I should have bought a 750.

Everyone kept telling me that 600 was a good size, and not to go too big.

This is turning into an expensive upgrade, but seemingly worth it.

Heres what we got so far:
Camshaft: COMP 08-000-8, 3052/3053-110
Edelbrock RPM AirGap intake manifold
750cfm Carburetor
Valve springs (Kind?)
Stock retainers
Full roller rockers (Might as well)

No coffee.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Oh, and can I do this without removing the heads?

Atilla the Fun

Yes, you can do this without pulling the heads. All except the porting and polishing, which would return you far more than the rockers will.
Stock rail rockers can work if nice rockers don't fit the budget, it's an upgrade that's nearly as cheap and easy to do later.
For springs, you just need some that'll clear the guide bosses and valve seals, fit the stock retainers, and give 90+ pounds at 1.700".
Since money is tight, you could try the 98214 springs from www.competitionproducts.com. They're $30/set.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

These springs here?
http://www.competitionproducts.com/H...uctinfo/98214/

They say for hydraulic flat tappet, that will work fine with a roller?

I guess that'll be it on my shopping list, I thanks you kindly.

Atilla the Fun

Yes, those. IDK why they tag them for non-roller, since these are slightly better than the GMPP LT4-HOT kit springs. Plus these are less money, and are American made. In fact, with the rash of flat lobe failures, I wouldn't use these on a non-roller. They just are not necessary for non-rollers. non-rollers can use the 98111 springs.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Well I have been thinking, and rather than posting up another thread about the same old subject, I will try to continue this one.

I have been looking at this from a $$ standpoint. I also realize that just because my block has the "provisions" for a factory rollar cam set-up, does not necessarily mean that I have to actually use a roller cam. I am also not going to be driving this car "as often" as I initially intended.

Regular hydraulic roller camshafts are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper (In price) than roller camshafts. I can even buy all new lifters and the cam for less than half the price of JUST the roller cam. This will yeild me more money to go for the other upgrades that this swap will benefit from.

So my question is, what are the specs (duration, lift, etc) of the cam that you spec'd me earlier? (COMP 08-000-8, 3052/3053-110)

I would like to order a cam straight up if possible. (no custom grinds)

I know you will tell me that this is a downgrade, but I truly don't see a difference in performance significant enough to justify the money for roller parts, when the latter is so much more affordable.

As always, THANKS!

thomas1976

By the time you add a cam button, (maybe even a particular timin chain cover), HF lifters and break in oil you already saved if sticking with roller.

From the wear factor the 100$ more for the roller will be totally neglectable.
After 100k the HR is still like new and can be sold. After 10k the HF is worth nothing.

The little fuel savings alone from the roller's little less friction will pay the difference rather quickly too.

bluers91

So would these be a decent replacement for the stock 062 vortec springs that came on the 330 crate motor to run a Ramjet camshaft? I have the heads already and have been looking for a decent priced reliable spring to replace the stock ones to go with the Ramjet cam. I know I could use the stock ones, but from what I understand its well worth the investment to replace them.