So I have an 87 camaro with the stock 350 in it. Just about half an hour ago my neighbor asked if I could drive him down to this bowling alley to bowl with his daughter. One of the first things he says is "man about time I get to ride in the IROC Camaro!" But the next thing he says is what bothers me which is "your engine is definatly missing". So now Im wondering what could be the reasons why my engine is missing?
Thanks

 

Stolen? Fell Out? Space aliens abducted it?

 

Did you take it out or did someone steal it?

Why did he think it had a miss? Is the motor shaking real bad?

 

Not that kind of missing. He says he thinks its missing because he says it is idling rough.

 

So... is it really? I don't know the guy; he could be a moron, or saying about anything for any reason or no reason in particular, or he could be Chad Knaus, for all we know.

 

Do you think its idling rough? Does it drive normal and does it seem like it has a normal amount of power?

The most basic things to check though are plugs, wires, cap, and rotor. If you cant remember the last time (or you know its been years) you changed the fuel filter, then change it. It needs done anyways then.

 

I think it is idling pretty rough and it doesnt feel like it drives normal because it hesitates and has poor mileage (about 10 mpg) and doesnt have as much power as it is supposed to have. How much are fuel filters and how are they changed? How can you tell if the plugs are bad?

 

The fuel filter is on the drivers side of the car. It is right in front of the rear wheel. It just has a nut on each end that tightens the fuel line to to. Be sure to let the car sit for a while with the key off so the fuel pressure goes down. If not, you could be sprayed, and well, its not fun.

If plugs, wires, cap, and rotor havent been done in a long time, then its probably time to do them. I like the cheaper plugs. Stay away from the Bosh crap. I would just get some AC Delco's. Cap and rotor are pretty cheap too. To tell if you need these, just pull the cap off and look at the terminals. Your going to be looking for pitting in the metal. If there is corrosion, then I would replace them. I will never put cheap wires on a car again. I have had nothing but problems with them. This is one area where buying good wires like MSD is worth it, even for a stock motor.

 

Just to clear things up my engine isnt gone or stolen its just that it misses.

 

If it really does idle rough, and it's not just this one guy having a hallucination, then start with tune-up type stuff.

How long have you had the car? What all maintenance has been done to it? I'm going to assume that like all sensible used-car buyers, the first thing you did, before the first week you had it went by, that you've already changed all the fluids (oil, rear end, trans, coolant) and filters (oil, air, fuel). That would rule those out since they're already new, right?

Spark plugs, maybe a dist cap and rotor, maybe even plug wires, would be the suspects. Might be a better idea to identify the cyl that's not firing before starting to just swap parts: start it up cold, and after it's been running for maybe 20-30 seconds, drip water from a squirt bottle or the like onto each "port" of the exhaust manifolds and find out which one is colder than the rest. Then inspect every part associated with that one; plug, wire, injector, and so on. Could also be a vacuum leak or the PCV pumbing set up wrong which will allow unmetered air into the plenum and make it run WAY lean because the ECM doesn't know it's there so it doesn't put in fuel for it.

 

[quote=sofakingdom;4619751]If it really does idle rough, and it's not just this one guy having a hallucination, then start with tune-up type stuff.

How long have you had the car? What all maintenance has been done to it? I'm going to assume that like all sensible used-car buyers, the first thing you did, before the first week you had it went by, that you've already changed all the fluids (oil, rear end, trans, coolant) and filters (oil, air, fuel). That would rule those out since they're already new, right?
quote]

I just got the car in february this year. All I have had done to it is that I got the oil changed. This is my first car so I did not know about having to change all the fluids out but the air filters do look new. I also recently put in new coolant. Also the trans is fine as it shifts smooth like it is brand new. Next thing on my list was to change out the fuel filter as I have heard that is one of the easier things to do and after that the oil filter.

 

Bump

 

Im thinking that I might go get a fuel filter today and was wondering which is which fuel filter is the best bang for my buck.

 

Any ideas on the filter or comments of any of the above statements?

 

my thoughts exactly after reading the title

 

Anyone have any more advice? Like Sofakingdom just to add my car is running way lean if that helps any.

 

For the fuel filter, I would just go to Auto Zone and get a filter. As far as I know, there is no good or bad filter. Its just a replacement filter.

How do you know its running lean?

 

I have had quite a few people (who had some automotive inclination) tell me. They always say wow your car is running rich or dang that is running real lean! Car also has a decrease in power and decrease in mpg.

 

So no actual testing was done to see if it was running lean? When i check for a miss i've found one of the easiest ways is using a laser temp gun and checking the temp at each exhaust port and finding the cold one. Where at in omaha do you live? I'm in omaha now

 

No offense but Im 16 and my mom doesnt trust random people on the internet that say they will help me come over to the house. Nor does she want me to meet up with them someplace either.

 

Thats fine just tryin to help

 

I appreciate it but you know how moms are right? It doesnt help that she doesnt trust men.

 

Hahahaha no sweat. I'm only 20 and the only reason i'm living in omaha right now is because i'm doing a internship at the fort calhoun nuke plant

 

Someone on here recommended I use the water technique where you pour water on the exhaust where it exits the engine so I can tell which one is missing. Would the ones that work have the water sizzle and the other one that doesnt just sit there? Are there ant consequences that would come from doing this like the engine stops working or something like that or is it safe?

 

It won't hurt anything, i've never actually done it that way but its the same principle

 

Heres a quick question how are the cylinders numbered?

 

the driver side is 1-3-5-7 from front to back and the passenger side is 2-4-6-8 from front to back

 

There are many things that can cause the problems you are having. First of all, I agree with everyone who has recommended checking your ingition system, and if needed, performing a major tune. Im not so sure about checking for a misfire by dribbling water on your cast iron exhaust manifolds. This trick may work on headers where the exhaust tubes are seperated. Cast manifolds combine the exhaust from all cylinders into a "log" and cast iron conducts heat so that finding one cool exhaust port will be difficult if not impossible.

To find a misfire, especially since you probably need plug wires anyway, use a 12 volt test light. Connect the light's ground clip to a good ground and use the point to pierce each wire, one at a time, at the cap boot. This will ground out the ignition signal of that wire and kill that cylinder. Take note of the drop in rpm as you kill each cylinder. Any cylinder(s) that produce less of a drop in rpm when killed, are misfiring. Hold the test light only by the plastic handle and do not check for misfire by disconnecting plug wires on a running HEI engine. Not unless you think you'd enjoy having 40,000 volts jump through you to ground.

A few likely causes of your rough idle and poor fuel mileage, aside from ignition tune, are faulty injectors, faulty O2 sensor, faulty MAF sensor or circuit, faulty coolant temp sensor or circuit. Its easiest to check these using a scanner. As I have said before, trying to diagnose a computer controlled vehicle without a scan tool is a tough way to go. You can buy a quality used scan tool for the GM OBDI system for about $300.

There are more possible causes of your issues but definitely check these things first, after you perform the misfire test and tune up.

 

The car only has about 20,000 miles on the rebuild (which removes the need for a tune up) and I about a month ago realized the maf sensor was unplugged and I had already plugged that in so that isnt it either.

 

Because you plugged the MAF sensor back in doesnt mean that its functioning correctly. The fact that it was unplugged tells me that it probably isnt functioning correctly. Disconnecting the MAF sensor forces the ECM into memcal or fault mode where it operates on a base fuel map and ignores the MAF. Was the service engine soon light on when the MAF was unplugged? If not then the bulb is probably out or has been removed.

Also, its unwise to assume that because the engine was rebuilt 20K ago that the tune is okay. You have a rough running engine that gets terrible fuel economy. To assume that any part of it is okay is counter-productive. The only way to know that the ignition system is healthy is to inspect it. Remove a spark plug and check it for wear and deposits. Remove the dist cap and inspect the cap contacts and rotor for pitting and corrosion. In order to properly diagnose any issue, we must begin with the basics and follow an orderly path toward a solution.

 

i would plug in the maf and then disconnnect the battery for about 2 min do an idle relearn. disconnnecting the battery will remove any codes stored. worst case is the maf is crap could be the reason its unplugged. having the maf unplugged the car is running in limp mode. explains the horrid milage. the ecm is not able to read the air flow with the maf unplugged to control the fuel mixture.

 

Erasing codes will not solve anything. We need to know what codes are set in the ECM. These codes will lead us to a solution. Perform a bulb check by turning the key to "run". Does the "service engine soon" light come on with the key on? If not then the bulb or circuit need to be replaced/repaired. If the bulb is okay, turn the key off, use a paper clip to jump terminals A&B(the two terminals at the upper right corner) of the 12 pin DLC connector just below the streering wheel, under the dash. Turn the key on. The SES light will flash codes. Long flashes are tens, short flashes are ones. Note the code numbers and post them here.

Ive already explained the factory method for resetting idle. There is a reason that it is done the way I explained. If the engine will not idle at 450, then further diagnosis is needed.

I am quite sure there is an issue with the MAF sensor. There will most certainly be MAF code(s) stored. There may be other codes as well. Knowing what codes are in memory tells us what issues the system has had so we can determine if they are related. Then we can erase them and see what codes come back after running the car to know what failures are current.

 

The service engine light doesnt turn on when I turn the key to the on position or when I turn the car on.

 

So to fix it would I have to remove the panel and then replace the bulb or is there more to it?

 

Remember that the error codes push out the back of the shift register after 50 start/run cycles on these older ECMs (1227165) so all the error codes may not be stored any more. However, clearing the ECM and expecting it to relearn the fuel trims without a functioning MAF is useless.

You can connect a test lamp at the ALDL to read the error codes, but sill need to replace/repair the MIL in the dash sooner or later.

The MAF being unplugged may only be a symptom. Some diagnosis needs to take place before anything else.

Assuming the engine is correct 20K after a rebuild is not prudent. On a fresh build the plugs may only last 4-5,000 miles while the rings seat. We also don't know the condition of the injectors, fuel pump,. distributor, or any other critical components.

 

So where should I start? Do you think I should figure out which cylinder is missing and then replace the plugs and wires associated with that cylinder and then if that doesnt fix it see if it is the MAF or anything else someone has listed above.

 

You need to read codes. Im not familiar with the method Vader mentioned using a test light. Members of my profession have told me about it but Ive always used a scanner, or in a pinch the MIL flash method. Im sure Vader will explain the test light method for us. Before you go looking for an ignition miss or bad injector, etc. We need to know what is going on at the ECM level. The ECM uses info from the MAF and other sensors to manage fuel and spark. If this system isnt working correctly, your engine will run very rough even though spark and injectors are fine. Once we know that the electronic engine system is working properly then we can move on to diagnosing misfires, if they still exist.

 

So to read the codes do I stick the paper clip in the two terminals and then right down the numbers for how the SES light flashes? But there is one problem, my SES light is out how would I go about changing that?

 

is the motor stock or did you cam it or something that would make things a little easier, i would use a compression tester on all the cylinders to see if there are any discrepencies, but to me it personally sounds like a timing issue if it was out of time a bit it would lose power and have bad gas milage

 

It is the stock 350 TPI

 

you have an autozone by you ? they'll scan your car for free might point out something easier

 

Really? That would be much easier than just changing parts out until I fix the problem and burn a pretty big hole in my wallet. I will take my car down there tomorrow (mom is making me mow the lawn today).

 

Thats an idea. Hopefully theyll have the 12 pin GM adapter. Dont let them sell you anything!

Sorry, without the MIL(service engine soon light) working you can not use it to flash codes. PM Vader, ask him how to use a test light. And yes, you want to note the codes on a peice of paper, and watch them a few times as they cycle through so youre sure to get them right. The first code will be code 12. It just means that your in diag mode and does not point to a problem. Each code will flash 3 times.

 

You can connect a test lamp to a 12VDC+ source and use Pin "D" of the ALDL connector as the ground for the lamp. That's exactly what the lamp in the instrument panels does:



Insert a jumper between the "A" and "B" pins in the ALDL, then turn the ignition ON but don't start the engine. Read the test lamp the same as you would the dash warning lamp (MIL).

Alternatively, you can use an analog meter in place of the lamp and read each sweep of the meter movement as a pulse.

 

Further, even with the MAF disconnected the engine should not misfire. The default mixture will likely be richer than optimal and the timing will not advance as it normally would, but idle and running should be smooth. I expect you will find a problem with the ignition system, injector(s), or a compression problem.

It might be easiest to perform a power balance test to help identify the offending cylinder(s) and concentrate on those first. The test will require disabling the IAC and using a tachometer (no, not that thing filling the second hole in the dash, but a REAL tachometer) and the test should be performed with a fully warmed engine.

 

Would one of those free tests at autozone go over and examine each one of these things? Im taking the car there tomorrow and want to know what to expect. Do you guys want me to take notes or write down a list of stuff so you know whats wrong?

 

This might clear things up it sounds like a bent pushrod it would do all of those things.

 

If the plug for the maf sensor was worn down would it cause the maf to not work fully? If so should I try and replace the plug because it is worn from rubbing on one of the belts.

 

If the [lug is damaged you need to check the wires and terminals for contnuity. Vader mentioned on thing though that is absolutely correct. Unplugging the MAF forces the ECM into memcal where it runs on a default fuel map. The engine should run reasonably well this way. I did not mean to imply that the MAF sensor was the cause of your misfire, only that since it was unplugged it probably has issues. i want to see what codes your ECM has stored because it may help us diag your car. In answer to your question, scanning codes will tell us what sensors or cicuits may have trouble. It will not tell us exactly what the trouble is.

Vader mentioned a power balance test. I hesitated to advise performing a power balance test because a few different sensor failures can cause a rough running engine and make a power balance test confusing. Unless you have an engine anaylzer where you can more clearly decipher the results of the test. thats why i really want to know what codes you have first. Id like to know if your engine is running lean or rich so we can address this as we look at the cause of your rough running engine.

The power balance or misfire test i pointed out above, using a test light to pierce the wire boots at the cap, is the safest way to perform this test. However, I still want you to read codes and post them here first.

 

The car is in fact running lean. I tried to address this problem in a previous thread but we never did come to a clear conclusion on as to why it is running lean.