five diff sets from 3 diff places and they still arch full tune twice what could be the problem? timing? fast and the furious computer tune? 89 305tbi 700r4
sensor? drives fine until accel past 50mph or heavy accel. then it skips and stumbles any ideas on what to check before buying parts and how? fuel filter is o.k. ac 45rts plugs gapped correctly. thru wire looms no touching metal.

tps? iac? o2 sensor? what? somebody help I'm thinking of getting out of the 3rd gen game

 

Are you seeing the wires arch, or just assuming they are since it skips?

 

actually seeing them arch: stock ac delco (on it when I got it), msd streetfire, autolite, xacts (advance auto) and beldans (napa)
I mean is there any reason for why this could be happening. oh, I forgot to mention that my coil is separate from the dizzy.

 

I'm at a loss. Is the coil held down properly? I dont know if coils need to be grounded or not is why I ask. I'll ask around and see what I can come up with. And like I said, I'm happy to come take a look - sometimes two brain cells are better than one!

 

I went through 2 sets of NEW wires before I bought a set of MSD wires and no more arching.

 

OEM type plug wires ( carbon core ) start to de-grade from date of mfg. ( same with tires ) . how long did they stay at some factory ( in china ) ? how long were they on a boat getting here ? how long in some dist. warehouse ? how long on store shelves ? along with all that under what conditions , heat , cold , humidity ? new from the store could be as much as 4+ yrs. old when you buy them . cheap is cheap no matter what , quality may cost a little more but pays in the long run . just my thoughts , when ever possible i buy products that are made on my/our side of the world . good luck .

 

Is the "arching" ... is it 'leaking' from the middle of the wires, or at the dustributor end or spark plug end? If closer to the distributor, I'd say you've got a bad distributor cap. I'd love to come see, you've got my curiousity peaked now! PM me to set up a date/time and I'll come over!

 

this past weekend (and each time) they were arching from the middle of the wires. Now the wires were touching the master cylinder brake lines and you could see them arching around them my father said that maybe I needed some of the 10mm super expensive wires but then I found out that the OEM were only 7mm and the ignition sys. is stock. Not to mention EVERY set did it.

So this time I changed the dizzy cap,rotor,wires,plugs (gapped correctly and OEM) grounded the coil to the firewall, routed the wires thru stock looms,stopped the cooling fan from running all the time so car could reach operating temp, and connected the air cleaner pre-heater just in case that had something to do with it.

And before I spend a $1000 on sensors and more parts and still not fix the problem I'd rather get some ideas on what to check and how to check it that way I know what to spend my money on. Oh! I took the car to the shop and asked them to fix this problem and they told me that it was the fpump so they changed so now it doesn't cutoff on me but it still skips and like I said my wife and I still seen the wires arching at night in the dark car in drive foot on brake revving engine.and now after all the new parts it's still doing it. Any ideas?

 

I had the same problem on a 89 rs. I put 3 different sets on it and everyone would arch. I ended up putting a new accel coil and accel 8mm wires and it stopped. Don't know if it was the coil or the wires. But just from experience I have never had any good luck with electrical parts from advance auto. They never seem to work right or for that long. So I buy from summit or jegs when it come to that kind of stuff
North carolina wwwooooo

Oh also sometimes at night you can see the spark going through the wires.

 

The coil ground is isolated from the frame. It doesn't ground through the frame. the one decent wire set you mention in your original post is the Beldens from NAPA. These are good wires. I've installed hundreds of sets of these without an issue. Did you apply dielectric to the plug boots? The wires need to be isolated from any metal component. The wire seperators should be installed in such a way as to accomplish this. Are you running a high voltage coil? I've installed Belden wires on engines running 40KV with no arching. You may have a bad coil. BTW, GM HEIs run 8mm plug wires, always have. Applications running higher KV might run MSD 8.8mm.

 

hey lunatic its always good to meet a fellow Ncarolinian is there any way to test these coils? and as far as running an aftermarket coil "no sir" everything is stock. and I did not know that the oem's were 8mm I apologize about the mis info. I will double check the wires to make sure that they are not touching ANY metal and another coil does not cost that much so I will try that. also I can get a set of 8.8mm accels if turn my autolites back in for a little added to them. then I will get back to you. But 1 last ? how would a bad coil cause the wires to arch?

 

Agreed on the beldens good wires never had a problem with them and they do have a lifetime warranty on them.

 

o.k. I took the car to a shop just to have it put on the computer, well the guy running yhe shop loves camaros and has had 4 of them and he came out and checked it out and told me after he seen that it is burning just a little oil that I could try opening the gap on the plugs to about .044 and if that did not work he pulled the wires off the dizzy 1by1 and told me that cyl 2 and cyl 8 might need non-foulers on them that when the plugs get fouled to a point that the electricity won't go thru them and that will cause each set of wires to arch no matter what. I'm going to try that (hey you never know that might work) it will be this weekend if it works I will let everyone know.
I just wanted to share this if anyone else might run into this problem. Thank all you so much and like I said I will post what happens. Ohhh!!!! I have to add that he did not charge me anything and spent almost 20min with me. then we talked about camaros

 

wow, I never thought of that. But it does make since. I'm just glad to see there are still good people on this earth. You just got lucky that he happend to be a camaro fan But keep us posted on the outcome. My car burns a little oil to, so I may try this also. This might clear up my misfire feeling under heavy load(going up these blueridge mts)

 

That is an exellent point concerning oil fouled plugs. I completely forgot about that. The very high resistance causes KV to go so high it leaks through the insulation. Awesome that you found a good tech who loves Camaros.

Anti foulers are the best way to go for preventing oil fouling. They do work quite well and amazingly don't affect performance noticably. Of course they are only a stop gap to an eventual overhaul of the motor. increasing gap will buy some time between replacing fouled spark plugs but severe oil intrusion will eventually overcome even a larger gap.

The only tests we have for an ignition coil is the ohm test an the KV test. The ohm test looks for opens or shorts in the coils and between the coils and frame. The KV test checks the coils actual ability to produce high voltage while also looking for deficiencies in the primary ignition circuit, fuel system, and engine. Learning how to read KV waveforms is very interesting and gives us a window into overall engine health.

 

Half effort yields half results./ your signature gives real insight into your personality thank you for the info and yes like I said I will be posting all results just to let others know what I have experienced and have found out. and oh yes the shop is in four oaks on hwy 301n he was a nice guy and does love thirdgens

overhauling the engine is out of the question I have a 350 short block in the barn I'd rather put my time and effort into this:
Fresh 40 over 350 block 2 bolt main with arp main studs
Bored and honed with torque plate, decked
Brass freeze plugs with clevite cam bearings
Cast crank turned 10/10 with clevite main bearings
Rebuilt rods with arp wavelock bolts and clevite bearings
Speed Pro Hyperutectic flat top pistons with speed pro moly rings
Assembled with all clearances checked

I'll add some vortecs and intake and then the rest before I redo the 305
all I want to know is how long will the 305 last with proper maintenance thank you all and I will let you know.

 

o.k I have some results I pulled the plugs from No. 4&6 and of course they were fouled (it looks like oil but smelled like gas). both were wet so I replaced 6 and put nonfoulers on both and made sure all were gapped the same (.044). all of the others were fine then I replaced the wires on 4&6 with what I hoped were good wires from the beldan set that I still had. I fired it up and as always it idles just fine a little high but fine. (started at 2100 then as it warmed up it dropped to 1200)

I noticed that the throttle response was better a little less hesitation when gas is snapped. I took it down the road expecting the same (go more than .5mi and then start running like crap) and it did not do it. My wife said "hmmm by now it would have been messing up" and she was right. Now it's not perfect but not that bad throttle response was good and it got to about 80 rather quick it did skip and pop some but nothing like what it was doing. So the next thing will be double check all plugs (make sure no fouling) then gap all of them back to .035 and replace all the wires with a good set of beldans from napa. and see what it does.

thanks to all the good people who helped me. Newbie hey man I appreciate it, the guy at napa auto care (shop) in four oaks,NC thank you so much thirdgen.org thanks guys B/C I lie to you not I was about to give up and sell my car but even my wife said after we tested it that she would like to see it finished and running right so thanks!!!!!!!!

 

I went through two sets of good wires from napa within a year before I ordered msd wires and all my little misfire and skipping went away. I fought this for 2 years before I figured it out! Just a heads up on napa wires.

 

Good honest mechanics are indeed hard to find, Trainable kids are even harder to find. Make sure you bring him something for his insight, Coffee, donuts, cookies, brownies and such are always a nice cheap reward. I recently overhauled an engine for payments in brownie( she makes really good brownies) been doing work for her for years for this payment. My wife is like WTF, you get paid in brownies ??

 

i say return the new wires and get the msd's or accels itl run beautifully

 

o.k. here it is:
I got rid of the 7mm wires completely and went and got a new set of plugs,another coil,fuel filter is new, and a new set of 8.8mm accels and took out all the non'foulers and yes it runs great. thanks to everyone that has helped me. trully thirdgen.org is the premiere site on the web for our cars.

Now I have another "?" it did something that I am not used to. I drove to benson and around benson then jumped I95 then on I40 grand total of about 20miles smiling all the way then to impress my wife I hit the gas and kicked it from about 55 to 85 in a couple seconds. When it hit 85 I let up to cruise then all of a sudden NOTHING no throttle no engine noise. the best as I could tell I had lights but nothing else, I floor it NOTHING, only when I let completly off the gas pedal do I see my RPM gauge jump. I floor it again NOTHING I let off of it then the RPM needle jumps.

I get in the slow lane to coast to the safe side of the road after the speedometer gets to about 45 the car comes back to life. I kick it to 70mph and it does it again NOTHING until it gets back to about 50mph. I make it to the exit 319 which is hwy 210 it shuts off completely and I lose (PSteering) I stop and try to start and it fires and shuts back off. I let it sit for 30 seconds and voila it roars back to life and I drive off like nothing happened. I go to KFC and head home and have no other trouble.

Now some background on the car:
The CTS sensor has been changed and that is it. The FP has been changed, now the mechanic that did the FP said that it had the wrong Fp on the car. The one that came out was for 305tpi (55psi) and the one that went in was 305tbi (14psi) I was told that the (tpi FP ) was on the way out and that if it was working correctly that it would have messed up the throttle body unit anyway so I authorized the replacement. What made me take it to him was that it was skipping and popping and shutting off even at slow speeds and only when it seemed to get hot and the mechanic told me that it was the FP and when the demand increased the FP couldn't keep it supplied. this was checked by a gauge. What made me mad was after he "replaced" the FP with the proper one then the car was still skipping real bad as you can see this is the reason for this thread. That was what I put it in the shop for then he said "I can get the skip out for you if you authorize it!" i THOUGHT THAT WAS WHY I BROUGHT THE CAR TO YOU, YOU SAID THAT IT WAS THE FP !!!!! Of course it was going to cost more, That is when I went to pick up the car and started this thread. Any ideas on what to check? that is all the work that the motor has had done. Oil pressure gauge started showing 0 but the car was running fine. fuel boils B/c of no heat sheilding.

NO SHOPS PLEASE!!!! I'm looking for things that I can check or maybe me and my father we have some mechanical knowledge and are pretty handy with tools. and have more time than money.
OHHHH yeah I forgot when I bought the car I was told that the engine wasn't a 305 it was a 350tbi that the orig. owner had the motor changed now assuming (never assume) that the PO was being honest (of course I did not believe him) could this be the reason for the diff. FP assuming that my mechanic is telling the truth.
HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP HELP

 

I just read a search about "low" oil pressure this weekend I will try that. Any ideas?

 

Check the casting numbers to see what engine you have.

Low oil pressure usually results in a real rough idle (i'm talking ROUGH) and trying to die when you come to a stop. The oil pressure sender should be right above your oil filter and they're pretty cheap and easy to do yourself.

If your fuel is boiling and your car skips and pops at all speeds when hot I would start there. If anything lowering the fuel pressure would have made it worse. Raise the pressure, raise the boiling point. Your car is acting like an old carb's vapor lock is what it sounds like.

 

how do i check the casting numbers on the engine with the engine still in the car? The car no longer skips it did not skip when it all but shut off on me. I was thinking low OPressure b/c that was the only thing that I could think of that might make the FP just stop working. I told my wife that it was either a fuel or a fire problem.

the timing is not off it runs too good and starts to good. the very first start of the day is the hardest having to hold the key for about 4 seconds bfore it starts up then all the rest of the times almost instantly it starts. I'm getting spark if i wasn't it would skip not just die. I mean it went from roaring down the hiway to nothing and when it slowed down it just came back to life.
1. oil sending unit/switch
2. casting numbers/FP match
anything else?

 

The one just above the oil filter is an oil pressure switch that powers the fuel pump when pressure is above 3 psi.

Your oil pressure sending unit for the guage is the single wire can just beside the distrubutor on the driver's side.

 

I'd look at the fuel pump relay, and see if it's working. Since you have an extra set of hands around (the wife), get under the car and place ear as close to gas tank as you can (or put ear on hump in the hatch), and have the wife turn the key to ON (not starting it), and see if you hear the fuel pump 'prime' - it will run for about 1-2 seconds, then stop. If you don't hear it, read my post here: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...ed-please.html

Then I'd try swapping out the OPSU (oil pressure sending unit), located right above the oil filter. The deal with these gauges, they are not very accurate - so we really don't care what the oil pressure gauge reads as far as psi numbers, we just want to read something besides 0, and we want to see the oil pressure move around (should be higher on a cold start, and needle should move slightly when you stomp the gas).

The block numbers are possible to see when engine is in the car - it's not easy, but it's possible. Behind driver side head, there is a spot on the block with the ID numbers - might at least be able to see a "5.0" or a "5.7" stamped there - but the older motors didn't have those ci designation stampings, just casting numbers.

I can possibly come help you find the block ID numbers, as well as help you check/adjust your timing also (have light) if you need.

Oh - also ... alot of folks I've read swap from the TBI pump to the TPI pump, and don't seem to have any issues. The internal fuel pressure regulator in the TBI unit must be able to handle the pressure and regulate it down sufficiently. Usually, this swap is done with modified TBI cars where the owner thinks he needs more fuel to feed the modified motor - the TPI pump not only feeds more pressure, but also feeds more volume. So I don't think there's an issue with using a TPI pump in a TBI car.

Oh, one side note - there's a new Raleigh area Camaro group - Capital Area Camaro Club, they comminucate alot through a list serv email setup - goto http://www.simplelists.com/subscribe/capitalcamaro.php and sign up to receive the emails. They also have a Facebook page, just search for Capital Area Camaro and you'll find us.

 

On his 1989 car, there should be just the one single OPSU above the oil filter - GM combined the gauge wire and the fuel pump circuit wires into the one sender on the later model cars.

 

Easy way to get the block ID numbers. I did this once and I felt like a genius. Take a piece of paper (granted you'll need to practically lay on the engine to do this) and steal a crayon from the neighborhood windowbreaker and feel around with your hand until you feel the numbers (driver's side rear of the engine just behind the head) put the paper on it and run the crayon over it a couple times also works with the side of a small pencil.

Pull the vacuum line off your FPR and crank, see if any fuel comes out. Could explain the dying at high speed, too much fuel.

 

camaronewbie - you are correct. I checked wiring diagrams and parts catalog, and the OPSU is a combo unit in 89.

 

I searched the haynes last night and from what I can see the fpr is under the throttle body AKA it has to be taken apart. please help I am handy with tools but never dealt with that before.

I drove it last night (under 65mph) w/o incident. and your right I unplugged the FP relay and it still fired up (took awhile ) but it did start and run. a little rough at first then it smoothed out.

A man told me that the car would only get about 85mph and then some type of limiter would kick in and make the car seem like it was dying until it comes down to a lower speed and rpm. But to be sure the car is supposed to do better than 85mph not only that but the second time the car did it I made it back to 70mph any help is appreciated.
newbie thank you for your offer and I will take you up on that offer and come to meet you or you can come to me but to be honest B/t work,church,home,kids,and school I will have to MAKE time as soon as you and I can come up with a schedule I will definitely do that.

 

I noticed the other night after popping my hood after driving her kind of hard to let some of the heat out.He he. i noticed that my coil was arching real bad. The spark was shooting right out of the coil wire boot , right across the coil. I replaced the coil. Ok, no more ticking sound and arching there. I also was experiencing a lot of hesitiation and stumbing on the highway. I pulled my dist cap and found a thick white crust on all of the contacts. Cleaned them off. Now it runs better , but the next night i went out to find all of my wires arching. Lots of blue flashing under the hood. Like sheet lightning. I changed a few selected wires that were arching real bad. Ok, now wires on my driver's side are arching. In, fact all of them are arching now. Little sparks and stars. They arching right out of the wires themselves, not just at the boots. I suspect i need new wires? Next i would suspect maybe a bad cap? but after reading your post here, I am suspecting possible bad plugs. Thing that gets me is all of my ignition components are all less than a year old! Did new plugs , cap, rotor and wires after my header install.

 

Did you gap all of your new plugs to .044?

 

I wonder if my plugs are fouled now. I replaced my Ac delco rt 45's with bosch 7985 short plugs.

 

STICK TO AC DELCO NEVER ANY BOSCH THAT IS PROBLY THE PROBLEM replace immediately then do wires and check to see what happens and do what I did and get quality wires.

 

to those who were following this thread and helping me thank you so much!!!!!!!!!!
SUCCESS we have found the problem and she purrs like a kitten remarkable for a 22 year old car.

now the engine is stock like I said so there was no way that the piston hit the stock plugs and still runs as good as does so it must have been when I was trying to get the plug lined up so that it won't cross-thread and was bumping it around. Instantly the power increased the slight hesitation decreased when snapping the gas pedal. I will wait for it to cool off before trying to get to no.8 plug which by the way I remember having a hard time with also. to all my want to be mechanics "You live and you learn"
one last thing "IF you never make a mistakes YOU are not doing anything"

DON"T LAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit:
ooohhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! my goodness if this is a LO3 then what the heck kind of monsters do you 350, 383, and 400+ cu. in. owners have under the hood. maybe I'm being over dramatic but who cares I just did no.8 cyl. and of course it was the same thing NO GAP and this thing woke up. Absolutely no skipping, hesitation, stumbling, the engine doesn't even shake when you rev it up, and it takes nothing to break traction ON DRY PAVEMENT. how in the world do you BB owners hold these things on the road. Now it's on to the front end and interior.