Firebird Mess85

I did a search on the EGR delete and came up with a whole bunch of TBI and TPI info.. I've got a carb'd setup and was looking for pros and cons of the EGR delete and what I have to do (just a block off plate)?

Apeiron

Your info says you went from a 2.8 to an LG4... you swapped in the computer, sensors, all the wiring, and the whole vacuum system?

Benjam88

Don't do it on stock parts. I did it to my car when I didn't know much about motors, and now it pings under heavy load (WOT) The EGR actually cools down your cylinder temperatures.

Apeiron

EGR's not active under heavy load, so it's not causing your pinging.

Firebird Mess85

A previous owner did the swap so I'm in the dark as to if he sapped everything correctly. I'm assuming the car wouldn't run at all if the 2.8 cpu was still in there. I have a lot of the vacuum hoses there but a lot are damaged.

Apeiron

Then you're talking about physically deleting the EGR valve, since it's probably already non-functional?

Firebird Mess85

Yeah exactly. I have no idea if it's functional.

Apeiron

Then yes, you can remove the valve and use a block-off plate.

Firebird Mess85

Is that all there is to it? Any computer related things that might get screwed up? Would doing this help or hurt in any way?

MC305SS

I've either completely removed or limited the amount of EGR that can enter the engine.
Not once have I had any problems nor really will you.
GM engineers did this to lower the combustion temps so it would form less NOx, the only problems is that is not proportional in flow to the air fuel mix.
When it operation it can dilute the mix enough to take away at least 10 ft lbs of torque or more in low rpm operation.
People I have dealt with doing this have reported up to 1 1/2 MPG increases.
OK, so you will pollute more.
You may get a SES light when the system goes into a test mode when 45 mph has been hit and held for a few miles of driving.
That is about all the negs you will see.
Positives:
No more egr gunk being built up on the valves, intake, pistons etc.
Better MPG's of some measurable means.
Little more bottom end power.
Losing a unsightly mess of parts.

Now it has been said that doing this will create a condition that the motor will ping.
Can it? Possibly it could in theory, but if the engine is clean and the cooling system is doing its job, no.
People who have said it did add pinging all ready had a motor that was, this just pronounced it better. Like I said a bit back carbon deposits will build using EGR those same deposits are hot spots that promote this problem.

MC305SS

Now I know someone will chime in about this pinging/timing issue that was mentioned.
Again if everything is up to snuff, factory timing settings are fine.
If someone wanted to up the timing a few degrees, it could be a problem, but one easily solvable.
There is a system that can yield you even more timing and lead to just as clean a pollution factor.
Its called water injection and can be done on the cheap.
There are many home built systems you can find in a google search using the windshield washer tank many no longer ever use but still in place in there engine bays.
This will keep the engine clean, add a inert substance that will cool the combustion temps so it forms a lower amount of NOx and you can add even more timing that EGR waste byproduct alone.
The factory did not use this because people will not be bothered with filling it.
Then in the winter it will freeze unless you add some alcohol to it which is another bother. It actually came on a few Camaro's from 69-71 on their high compression motors. Thats the only time I can recall the factory ever using it.

Matt1821

So your saying removing the egr valve all together will NOT hurt my vehicle? I'm looking at around a 300 dollar repair bill that I won't be able to pay the dealership to replace the thing, and it sounds to me that this seems like a great alternative. I'm sure I could replace it but 10 lbs of extra torque on the low end sounds nice along with a little better gas mileage.

If I were to remove the egr valve is there any vacuum lines or anything that come out with it?

Also, I removed my thermostat a while back, would that effect this at all? Better or worse?

Camaro305SB

It doesn't harm the engine to remove it, but doesn't help any either. Its an emissions component though, I'd make it work if possible.

MC305SS

Put the thermostat back in.
Thats a old school deal that can lead to further problems.
Yes, without the EGR it'll run just fine.
Follow the vacuum line from the egr and put a vacuum line plug on it. Leave the actuator solenoid connected, this might save you from a SES light.
I removed every emissions device and just left the basics the OBD uses to allow the car to run.

Matt1821

I keep hearing you'll get worse gas mileage due to the ecm trying to make up for the loss of air entering the combustion chamber. it will force more fuel in because the ecm will think something wrong with the egr...

ASE doc

Your stock engine was designed to have EGR. It's not just an emissions device. It reduces cylinder temperatures with the lean mixtures run in newer emission controlled vehichles, as well as reduce NOX emissions. Running without it can cause valve damage over an extended period.

Not to argue, but Benjamin88's pinging could certainly be exacerbated by running without EGR. No EGR increases cylinder temps, which will in turn increase tendancy to ping.

A normally functioning EGR system has no affect on WOT power.

Apeiron

EGR doesn't allow air into the combustion chamber, only inert exhaust.

MC305SS

Causes valve damage??? OK, SURE!!
Can it promote pinging, I never said it couldn't.
What I said if if the top end of the engine is clean of carbon, its tuned up running well, chances are SLIM AND NONE!
Egr buildup in itself can promote a much higher percentage chance of having a ping than removing it and having a clean tuned motor. That carbon buildup on piston tops, valves etc will create hot spots that promote it.

A 14.7:1 air fuel mixture is only a few hundred degrees hotter than a than a 13:1 or so air fuel mix. its that extra few hundred degrees that makes it form Nox at high levels. Thats not killer heat for a motor like some have you believe specially if your cooling system is functioning right.

The engineers didn't design anything per say as was implied. They went leaner to meet federal specs that said they must increase mileage than ran into the NOx deal and used a simple solution that works and doesn't require regular maintenance . Nothing more, nothing less.

Why isn't EGR in operation when at WOT. Because its a power killer!
They don't want people trying to hit the throttle to pass someone and have it bog.
They also don't use it under around 1000 rpm's because it'll stall the motor out.

Studies were done and it was found as little as 1% egr to the air fuel mix was more than enough to bring combustion down under 1900 or so. 2000+ NOx is formed at higher levels.

If someone wanted to debate the merits of designers doing this for any other reason on OBD2 system, I will still argue. OBD1 is so rudimentary in ability, not having it doesn't impede anything!!!! And then think about it further, doesn't matter whether there is EGr gas entering or not, the 02 sensor output back to the ECM is still under the same perimeters to maintain a 14.7:1 air fuel mix and it takes over 15.5:1 before heat created in the combustion chamber will begin to creat some damage.

And removing it does allow more air and also more fuel in. Its displacing that rotten non burning gas!

ASE doc

That's alot of words to make an inaccurate statement. If you want to run no EGR on your otherwise stock emissions engine, that's your call. Just don't get too busy telling others it's a good idea. BTW, my statement about engineers designing EGR into these cars in order to prevent excessive and potentially harmful cylinder temps as well as lower NOX emissions, I heard that from a GM engineer in 1991 when I was attending a 2 day class in engine management at GM tech school. Maybe he didn't know what he was talking about.

MC305SS

Oh, so you sat through a few classes to earn a patch so your place of employment can charge more, cool.

OK, I'll put my GM engineer against yours.
Mine, one of the primary designers at Delphi's Rochester NY R& D division for fuel systems that just retired 2 years ago after 30+ years of designing and testing carbs and EFI's.
Now he told me just what I posted. There can be minor risks, which I think I covered completely.
Now beyond that find me any serious data, article etc on the net that proves that combustion temps hitting 2100-2200 degrees will destroy and engine. Reason I ask of this is because I allready know the answer. The only people that are against a EGR valve in operation are greeny ****'s.
Egr valves have been removed, turned off via ECM programming since the advent of such and there nre no major reported problems. just the minor ones where the problem all ready existed and this deletion brought it to a higher attention.

I have in my possession a certificate, actually quite a few of them that says I am a certified safe driver, a defensive one, ISO and QS compliant etc and all I had to do was pay and stay awake!!!!

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

Okay, you block off the EGR. No more gross black carbon build ups. Lose a bit of volumetric efficiency. Game over. No need to argue guys. As a performance mod, I don't see it as being one if the car is daily driven. I could be mistaken though.

ASE doc

Interesting stuff. Actually I got a bunch of certificates that say Im an ASE Certified Master Tech, L1 advanced engine performance, DEQ certified emissions technician, GM and Chyrylser certified engines, engine performance, and electrical systems tech. That and 35 years of rebuilding engines with burned exhaust valves that had the EGR valves removed or EGR valves that hadn't worked for a while. Absolutely no power gain at all, and a real risk of valve damage. I don't see where that's a good idea. I wont say that unmetered air leaks or other lean conditions may not have contributed to these failures, but they probably wouldn't have been damaged this way with a working EGR valve.

BTW, I don't run an EGR on my engine because I want pure air and fuel. But my engine is far from stock.

I'm not on this forum to argue. I spend my time giving advice, learning from others, and helping fellow 3rd gen lovers. So with that, I am dropping this thread.

Firebird Mess85

I wasn't looking to remove the EGR for performance gains. I have no idea if it's working properly and I had figured removing it would have been better than a non working unit.

calamitascamaro

iTrader: (5)

I was agreeing with you.

MC305SS

Thats good!!!!

I like this line best
Recirculating exhaust into the intake tract of a medium- or heavy-duty diesel engine can reduce power output, increase fuel consumption, and add abrasive contaminants and increase engine oil acidity, which in turn can reduce engine longevity

HUM!!!

You run with no egr yet promote the usage of.
A higher performance engine would probably have much higher cylinder pressures that would yield higher combustion temps putting it in more need of usage than a much lower compression version.
And this deal from what I copied and pasted, just look at it closer because the same results are found in a gasoline engine.
It does reduce power output.
It does increase fuel consumption, but due to extra timing that can be added, some is gained back but its the NOx that is the most important.
Yes those carbon deposits do cause damage.
30+ years myself or removing in one form or another a EGR systems and never ever had one motor go early because of the lack of one plus countless other millions how have done it also.

So to all, if you want to remove it, remove it, just be sure your tuned up, you regularly do a top end clean and you'll be fine.

Oh and don't remove the knock sensor, bypass it or delete it from the prom. Those engines he found damage in due to EGR deletion at a high rate I suspect removed it and they pushed the timing even further.

Matt1821

So I only have to buy one block off plate and put it where there egr is now? anything else? I don't have emissions testing here so I don't have to worry about that. also, I leave the electrical connector there but is it attached to the egr physically and if so can it be removed from the valve?

Matt1821

I pulled out my egr today, and put in the block off plate. everything seems good no ses light or anything, but I have noticed an odd noise when its under heavy load now

ASE doc

That odd noise is most likely detonation. Switch to a higher octane fuel and add Seafoam to remove carbon deposits from the combustion chambers. Good luck.

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

holy hell.....TGO has filled up with some real pissy folks lol ASE doc was simply explaining that on a STOCK application, its there for a reason, if you dont have a legit reason to remove it then why do it.

If you decide to remove it there could be problems. hes got a built motor with no EGR, so his is gone, mines gone too because i got sick of the system, thats my personal choice, the idea of this forum is to help eachother, and hes helped me god knows how many times over the years with my problems, hes ASE certified, call it what you want, its knowledge that the common person will not have. This forum has gotten so over run with people that want to argue, if you want to play that game, go buy a civic, head over to a honda forum and bash away. and as far as the who i know game my instructor in college was steve julius who worked at the az proving grounds through the production of our car, i asked him about this issue when i was attending college and he said the same as ASEDoc, its there for a reason, removing it can cause damage.

The removal of AIR is not a 1 step job, if you want things to work you need to pull everything, tune it to run properly and move on.

MC305SS

Why argue???

Because the removal of the EGR is not the cause of any problem.
14.7:1 air fuel mix is right on the edge of this problem.
GM engineers now this and thats why a knock sensor was added.
This is a perfect mixture for the most complete burn of the fuel and also power is near the max that can be provided.
Its only draw back is NOx is formed at high levels, hence the advent of the EGR system.
It wasn't invented to control pinging or add timing or any of this other nonsense.
Its at the edge, they knew it and even when EGR is introduced the ECM is still tuning for 14.7:1, still on the edge, still it can ping even with EGR.

The edge is there whether it have EGR or not, get it???

The reason for this ping is not EGR related, its on the edge, it could at any time ping.

Some of the reasons it will ping heavily are.
The carbon built up enough at times it raised the compression up.
Cooling system is not functioning at was intended.
Wrong octane rating- specially since these 305's and others are running 9.0 + :1. requires higher octane.
Carbon buildup itself due to this gunk entering and building up all over.
Too hot a plug and the list goes on.

I argue as you call it to bring the attention to the REAL problem.
Its not because you removed it, it was all ready there you just promoted it more.

Its the askers choice, but they need to know all the information regarding this ideal.
Not leave it alone, its stock.
If they know all this maybe they would take a little more care!!

galletti

Guys, all I wanna know is how to get to those DAMN BOLTS!!!!

BluFBdy

iTrader: (1)

Grab a wrench cant remember the size right now and get the bolts from the side, IIRC it takes a while and alot of small swings with the wrench, obviously youre gonna hav eb to remove the plenum and runners, best bet is to disassemble and try

galletti

DONE! That was a real PITA!!! Worst of all, car still shudders. I'll keep hunting.

1991z285speed

The EGR valve is a good design. It DOES protect the engine from pre-ignition under load. The air pump on the camaros are good too because it helps burn the unburned gases inside the catalytic converter better. I have run all these components and the car runs fine. The last thing you want to do is take something off and have the computer try to compensate for it. I drove from Washington State to Delaware and back in my 1991 z28 camaro with the air pump and EGR vavle still on. On my trip the car ran great, and to top that off the car averaged 26 mpg, and the best I ever got was 30 mpg. To save gas, its how you drive, not entirely the modifications. I have a completely bone stock system. Furthermore, the EGR valve does open up when you are on the throttle. The reason being is because it dulls the mixtures to prevent pre-ignition in the motor. Your best bet is to enjoy what you have and get it running like a top. To change something without the correct knowledge is risky and can be detrimental to longevity of the car.

Zipacna

Dead thread is dead, but a ZZ4 Hot cam has been shown to be 'self-EGRing'

oddscrounger

I have no need for exhaust testing anymore... is there anything wrong with headers into a true dual exhuast? No EGR..

any setups that have straight pipes going back and no muffler?

Rice01

So then whats behind some people saying you have to run a special gas cap after an EGR valve and canister delete?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I've been on this planet for quite some time now.... and among the things I've learned here is that if you go around trying to figure out "why" "people" do some of the things they do, you'll (a) waste ALOT of time that could be put to use productively instead, and (b) go slowly insane from letting the madness seep in.

People say things like that, because people say things like that. People saying stooopid stuff doesn't make it true, no matter how fevently they believe it.

EGR has nothing whatsoever to do with the gas cap. Somebody got something garbled somehow somewhere in there; whether it was what "people" "said", or whether it was what you thought you heard.

There's some degree of truth to the canister thing though. One way or another, the gas tank HAS TO be vented; after all, as you take out the gas, air has to get in somehow. Old cars used to have an open vent somewhere, which is one of the reasons they always smell like hydrocarbons. The canister is in the vent line of newer cars, such that it catches the fuel vapors instead of releasing them to the world at large, where they are a significant contributor to smog in places with that problem (go visit LA in the spring sometime to experience it) by way of what happens when sunlight hits the molecules in the atmosphere and turns them into .... something else. As far as any effect on "performance", it's a total non-issue. I suspect that "people" are inclined to hack on it because (a) they don't know what it's for, (b) they don't like how it "looks", and (c) it is associated with the smog stuff that got put onto cars in the early smogger years (70s) that DID hurt performance, like the totally crude EGR systems and the TERRIBLE catalytic converters of those early years. They don't realize that those systems have become MUCH more refined since then.

afremont

Depends on how you do the canister delete. If you plug the tank vent then pressure will build as things (like gasoline coming back from the fuel rails) warm up. So I guess what you are seeing is a recommendation to switch to a vented cap since the factory cap isn't vented. EGR wouldn't have any impact on which gas cap you should use.

Unless your EGR solenoid is broken, you should keep your EGR working. It's not hurting performance (assuming it isn't leaking) any when you step on it and it actually helps some things on the road cruising.

manolis1969

^ Video on how to delete an egr on a tpi setup .. detailed step by step