Will a 1988 IROC 305 TPI engine fit in a 1991 Z28 305 TPI camaro convertible?? And will I be able to use the stock transmission?

 

Your quick answers are yes and yes. The long answers take a bit of typing

 

The '88 was mass air, while the '91 was speed density.
The '88 engine can be run as speed density, if you have the '91 computer and wiring.

 

Are you positive? I'm about to spend $1,000 dollars on a 1988 IROC 305 TPI engine and I need to know FOR SURE it will fit in the frame and that it will be compatible with my stock transmission.

 

Yes I'm sure, but unless it has the '081 heads, it isn't worth half that price, even if it is a fresh rebuild.

 

The engine is completely stock besides the ECU program, Comp Cam, MSD distributor and Roller Rockers. The 1991 IS completely bone stock.

The whole block was machined.

I need to know if I should keep the 1991 ECU with the 1988 engine, or change the 1991 ECU with the 1988 ECU and the engine.

This is the engine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

 

"Stock" is no help. The 195 HP version from an auto trans won't have the good heads. It'll have the swirl-ports used with TBI and trucks. You don't want those.
If you want to use the '88 computer, then you also need to change the wiring to add the MAF sensor.
Cam and rockers have nothing to do with the transmission.
This '88 will bolt right up, to both the car and the transmission.
Ask the seller what heads it has. Don't ask if they're '081s. If they're not, then pass. Don't buy without a money-back guarantee, in writing, that they are.

 

Why the '081's? Not even sure what that is. I'm not looking for power, i'm looking for a new engine since mine is just about done.

The 1988 comes with wiring and all.

The guy put 4 grand into the engine in upgrades and buying completely new parts.

 

Why are you making it so hard to help you? Even without your post count, it's obvious to me that you're new to this, and you could easily be scammed. You haven't done your research. The seller may be trying to get you to spend a lot for something worth very little. Giving you the truck heads would be a probable example. All it would cost him is a few gaskets.
You may not care about getting the 220 HP version, but the 195 HP version isn't worth $500, even if it is a fresh rebuild with Comp cam and good rockers.
Get what you pay for. A dishonest seller will tell you anything to get your money. Is there any proof of the Comp cam and the good rockers, and the performance chip in the computer?
You can use this engine. It'll be a hassle changing the wiring.

 

That should be a pretty easy swap. The throttle body cable should also be the same. You should prob consult an actual trans. expert. The engines are really similar, and it should fit in your Camaro. Do you have the T5 manual or the 700R4 auto? It shouldn't realy matter, just curious. It should work just fine with the stock trans. just make sure everything is hooked up properly. and like I said contact an actuall transmission specialist.

 

Def. do more research.

 

We've talked to the guy and he seems truthful. We're going to ask for receipts before we pick it up.

How difficult will it be to change the wiring?

I don't understand how it would be difficult. The engine comes with the full wiring and ECU. Just swap the ECU in the 91', right?

It's an automatic transmission

 

If it's an auto then it's a 700R4. thats pretty much what came in all GM 3rd gen cars. But an engine swap is a huge thing, time consuming, frusturating, and aften times not worth it. The engine isn't that much much more powerfull than what you have if at all more powerfull. If your just looking for a replacement engine because yours is done, fine, but haggle with him a bunch, cause that engine isn't woth that much. tell him $500, haggle a bit, and then agree apon a middle of $750. If your looking for an upgrade, this ain't worth the trouble or the money.

 

He said he restored the entire car, putting 4 grand into the engine. I have 2 options for installation set up so far.

My engine needs new injectors. Which is 600 for injectors and installation, plus new heads which is another 700 for just the heads not even counting installation . My engine has 170,xxx miles on it. This 1988 has less then 1,000 miles.

And i've seen 305 chevy crate engine for $1,000 that are completely stock with no heads. This is the best deal i've seen in a while.

I will try to haggle with the guy though

 

Like I said, great for a replacement engine. AND DO SOME RESEARCH.

 

He invested $4000 into rebuilding a 305 long block. There's "too much to list." And he couldn't even put a coat of paint on the water pump. "price is not negotiable!" ...ah...ok... He hasn't got one bid yet. What's the hurry?

 

Oh it's a bidding on ebay, I see. And not one bid? yah, no rush dude, this guy made a mistake dumping that much into this engine. Capitalize on it.

 

Now the truth starts to come out. The guy said he doesn't know how many miles the engine had before it was rebuilt, and he did something that was called "30'd" or something like that which he said that the engine was either smaller or bigger then it is now. And since he can't tell us how many miles the car has and since the fuel injectors are stock, i could run in to the same problems my car has right now. The car had miles to the point that the owner didn't have to list them in the ownership. Can't remember what the word is for that.

So if no one pm ebay has placed a bid when bidding is over, i'll haggle with the guy a little, maybe get it for 750 or 800.

 

No TPI came with swirl-port heads.

"30'd" means it was bored .030 over during a rebuild. Neither a good thing nor a bad thing.

The blocks are identical on the two engines. The 88 has a MAF sensor and a cold-start injector that aren't on the 91. The easiest way to do a swap would be to swap the short block, or short block and heads, and put the 88 induction system on top.

 

That's not true.
StephenS, sorry I got irritable last night.

 

No worries, man.

The bid ended and i'm going to call the guy to see if he will settle for a better price. Even if he doesn't take a lower price, it's still a great deal. New heads alone are 600 plus 200 for installation.

 

But getting your current heads freshened is probably under $400, just for perspective.

 

Yes, it is. Which casting number are you thinking of?

Only TBI engines got swirl-ports. Carbureted and TPI engines all got the "good" heads.

The power difference for the 195 HP automatics is thanks to the peanut cam. The heads are the same.

 

I wouldn't bother swapping the 88 ecu/wiring into the car. The 91 ecu is better and can run the 88 motor fine. Swap your tpi onto the 88 motor if you buy it and use the 91 wiring/ecu. Also is the motor already out of the car? If not I would try and hear it run before it's pulled. BTW $600 for injectors is insane, you can usually find used mustang 19lb injectors for cheap, or new/rebuilt from here: http://fuelinjectorconnection.com/ (great seller) The gasket kit is 30 bucks from autozone, first time around it would only take you a few hours to do.


Also what is wrong with your heads that you need to replace them?

 

I read it backwards... It's easier if it's an 88 engine into a 91 car.

 

If you aren't concerned about hp for 700 more this isn't a bad option, and it's also brand new.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12568758/

 

Yup, if you didn't want to swap the tpi units you really only need a cold start injector plug

 

Well. No new engine.

Since my dad completely gave up on repairing and sort of restoring the car, all costs are on me and I don't have money for the thousands in repairs my dad left on the car when he gave it to me.

I have no idea what to do.

 

Sorry to hear that man. Best of luck to you.

 

Like I said earlier injectors can be done fairly cheap if you do them yourself. Also you never replied why do you have to replace your heads?

-Jim

 

Since I have some money saved up, i'm just going to buy the engine myself.

I'm still a little confused about the 88's ECU/computer. Since i don't know if the computer on the 91 is going bad (it has 170,xxx miles on it), i want to switch it with the 88 ECU. Is it possible to switch out the ECU, but run it with a MAP sensor? MAF sensors are a pain and they cost a lot. Or would that completely mess up the engine? Plus I want the cool program it has so I can increase or decrease performance.

It seems like a great deal except that the injectors are stock, thats the only thing concerning me. If they last me another 2 months, great. It's better then what I have now. I'm only runnin on 7 cylinders right now cause injector 6 is completely shot. I've been running it like that for 2 months now. Hopefully in those 2 months i'll have enough to buy injectors and somehow replace them myself.

I just gotta find where I can get decent injectors for cheap.

To me, this engine is a really good deal. He has receipts for everything and i'm paying in cash when I see the engine for myself. I'll maybe take a valve cover off or so. Worse comes to worse, i resell the engine or keep it in storage and work on it till it's ready to go in.

And both engines are short blocks correct?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...torefresh=true

 

you can't use the 88 ecu with the 91 wiring, they are too different. The 88 ecu is meant for maf only. You could repin out the whole harness and swap connectors on the 91 harness to use the 88 ecu but it would not be worth the time money or hassle for you. If you aren't throwing codes with the 91 ecu its probably fine just because it has miles on it means that they are bad.

why do you even want to replace the motor? I did the injectors on my formula for $60 bucks. Way cheaper and easier than replacing a motor, and your thinking that you may have to replace the injectors on the new motor anyway.

What is wrong with the motor in the car now? You still haven't answered why the heads have to be replaced...

-Jim

 

Also I wouldn't buy a used motor I couldn't hear run unless I knew the seller. You could be buying someone elses problem

 

I'm sorry if this comes off as condescending...but, you are making a rookie mistake. You are breaking rule #1 Don't throw money at a problem. I would rather have a stock 305 with 170,000 miles on it than a new rebuild that I have no idea what was done or by who. You are taking a big expensive gamble on that engine and may end up with more problems than you have now.
Your main problem you believe is injectors. Your engine was built to go twice the 170,000 you have on it. Determine exactly what the problem is and find out how to fix it. How do you know the injectors are bad. Junk yards sell injectors... find a U-pick. Its a good place to learn how to remove them. If you really have one bad injector you can fix it by next weekend.
"Worse comes to worse, i resell the engine or keep it in storage and work on it" That's not the worst it could get. Worse could be you spend your money on this motor, and end up with a 305 core, after you've gone to the expense and labor of a swap that takes months.

 

Thank you, exactly what I was getting to...

I picked up used mustang injectors for 30 bucks and a gasket kit for another 30 bucks. Ford used the good Bosch injectors while GM switched to Multec.

 

This reply to StephenS isn't so much to do with engine knowledge, but rather, previously good bargain hunting experience.

As an Ebay member, I have 760 transactions - both as a buyer and seller - under my belt. Most important, is my feedback rating: 100%. Also, my car is currently "in the red" because I re-sell the Camaro parts I replace and when I'm at the salvage yard, I always pick up spare 3rd gen parts I know I can resell - for a profit - to help finance future purchases that I need. Selling on Craigslist has also been very good to me (it's also how I acquired my 3rd gen).

The above paragraph is intended to show you my experience (not mechanically - better left to others here) when considering a purchase or to make yourself money to make purchases. That said, when looking at the Ebay link, I focused on this:

"Location: Riverview, FL - Local pick up only"

Since you are a Florida resident, I'm assuming you keyed in on this ad because you would be able to drive over and pick up the engine yourself after winning the auction. Now that the auction has ended (unsold-in your favor) I suggest that you drive to the sellers house with the maximum amount of money you want to spend and before making an offer, bring along someone with a strong knowledge of engines. If you don't know anyone offhand, how about offering a mechanic an hourly rate after hours? Meaning, "I'm very interested in this engine, but would like someone to look it over to verify it is worth purchasing. I'm hoping you could look at the block, heads etc. If you would meet me at this address, I can pay you a flat fee of *****".

I don't know of many persons who would turn down a fair amount of cash for maybe an hour or so of easy work (provided the commute isn't too bad). I did this when I bought my first camper years ago. I had no knowledge then about what to look for and not only did I find someone to help me, instead of money, they said a case of beer was fine.

Ask around, you'll find someone and not only may it help you make an educated purchase decision, you'll also get a free tutorial as they inspect the engine. Plus, the seller will see you are serious. If the engine receives a clean bill of health, they may wisely decide to sell now instead of relisting (which will result in them paying insertion & final value fees). If the inspection turns up a bad motor then I think we can agree that it was better to have spent and lost the amount you gave to the mechanic (most likely 100 bucks or less) instead of the close to a thousand bucks the seller wanted. Good luck!

 

 

So what you're saying is, I should have someone over look the engine before I buy it? I could give my uncle a call or even my mechanic and see if he'd be willing to drive up there with me to take a look at it.

I got lucky that no one bid on the engine because now I can drive up there hopefully with a mechanic, have them take a look at the engine, check the receipts the guy has and match things up.

The 91 does throw codes here and there when the car randomly shuts off while i'm driving.

How hard would it really be to get the MAP sensor to work with the 88 wiring on my own? Unless it's impossible. I'd like to use the 88 wiring because of the program in the ECU, and because mine might be bad. If it is impossible then i'll just tell him to keep the 88 ECU and wiring and tell him to take 150 dollars off the price.

The heads have to be replaced because they are "damaged" in some way. It has 170,xxx miles and I don't think my dad did a very good job of taking care of the engine when he had it for the past roughly 13 years before it went into storage for 4 years. Also the highest compression is 125, valve guides are bad, gaskets are shot, it leaks oil, it has that white/blue-ish smoke at startup, and what ever else my mechanic has yet to find.

I wouldn't even be thinking about buying this if the guy didn't have receipts. If the receipts match-up with that I see or my mechanic see's, then the deal is on.

And i know one of the injectors isn't working because me and my mechanic did a test on all of them. #6 injector is not working, the others are kinda bad but still working.

EDIT: I found a set of 8 BOSCH, 19# lb injectors for $110 bucks. All I gotta do it learn how to replace them myself. Can't be that hard right?

 

Replacing the injectors isn't hard just take your time.

The only way to verify the motor has been rebuilt would be to pull the heads off and check the bore. To verify the can your pulling the oil pan, timing cover, water pump, and timing chain off. I have a feeling the seller isn't going to let you do that.

 

If he had a professional rebuild the engine, would there be a receipt for the bore? And i wouldn't even know how to do those things.

 

Quote : "Too much to list" What the hell does that mean? it means he wants to tell you as little as possible about it. If this guy wants your money and has the receipts, then get him on the phone and find out what pistons, cam, heads, what works been done, etc, and post it here and find out what the consensus is among the people who know this stuff. Just because it has new parts and machine work done to it does not mean it is a good combo for your computer controlled induction system.Time is on your side.
Replacing bad injectors and having your heads reconditioned is cheaper and easier than an engine swap.

 

Replacing bad injectors and having your heads reconditioned is cheaper and easier than an engine swap.[/quote]

Very much so. In a situation like this you HAVE to weigh your pros and cons carefully. Both sides have strong reasons why you should do one rather than the other.

 

This is true. I've taken the position that it is best to proceed with caution and look for the cheap and easy way. i could be wrong. It might be best to grab this deal before it gets away. Dumping money into his engine might be the big mistake. But I've learned that buying on impulse is usually not the best choice. An informed decision is always preferred.

 

The engine comes complete. No crate.

Comes with Comp Cam, Hydraulic Rockers, A/C, Alternator, MSD Distributor, New plugs/wires, ECU/wiring, new guides, gaskets, and the ECU program. While he had the engine apart, he replaced everything as well. Everything was replaced but he already sold the headers and exhaust manifold which isn't much of a problem because I have a Hooker exhaust system anyways.

My engine needs just about everything replaced. Even my engines electrical components are bad.

The guy seems truthful since he built the car for his daughter and she drove it for a month and wrecked it. I've seen the car, parts can't even be salvaged except the front. He even let his wife do the posting on Ebay.

I might as well get the engine since i'm getting it for 900 now. For my engine I need new heads, timing chain, cam shaft, pistons, injectors, wiring re-done. My engine lacks way down in power, mostly because of the dead fuel injector but also because it is full of sludge and carbon ridden. My engine leaks like crazy, even down into the spark plugs somehow. And whatever else my mechanic has yet to find wrong with my engine.

So instead of paying to get each item installed individually, plus the cost of each item, i'll buy a new engine, with everything new (with the exception of injectors), plus the upgraded cam and rockers.

I'll even get a few hundred back from parting out the old one.

 

Like Skelitor said, you have to weigh the pros and cons. If the guy is willing to have you pick it up at his house, then he probably isn't out to rip you off. I'd put that in the pro column.

 

I honestly don't think he's trying to screw me over. Not everyone out there is trying to rip me off.

I kinda feel bad for him to throw so much money into a beautiful camaro and only have it for a month and a half and now he has to sell what he can

We've called him a few times about the engine and he seems cool. Asked him a lot of questions and what not.

 

If you have sufficient evidence indicating that this guy is truthful and that he is not out to get someone, then it is probably safe to trust this guy. Now you need to base your decisions on the engine and your options when trying to repair and restore your vehicle. Like majobis said earlier, Bringing a mechanic along or someone who knows there stuff is always a good idea. Just so you know what you’re getting into. There may be something wrong with the engine that you and the seller might have missed, and just getting a clear diagnosis on what the engine's condition is, and what you need to do to make it work perfectly is wise. Better safe than sorry in this case.

 

Well I have till next weekend to find a mechanic who would be willing to tag along

 

Actually i got another question, whats better MAP or MAF? I heard MAF was better because it was more accurate. I know MAF is a little more expensive but money isn't much of an issue anymore. My mechanic said he will include new wiring if I help him with the whole engine swap, which I would have anyways.

 

I am sorry, mabey I just read this the wrong way. But I am confused now. To be clear, Are you or are you not trying to purchase this engine and do a full engine swap?

(11:03 am) Nevermind. You cleared it up.