SomethingWild

Hello everyone, I'm new to posting but nowhere near new to searching. I'm sticking with this forum because the other one I thought would help is total crap and dead. I recently acquired an s10 donor truck dirt cheap, as something to keep me occupied. I'm searching Craigslist now over the next month to find an early 3G firebird to transplant.

This is what the previous owner told me, most i have no proof on. From what I was told about the truck, it's a 350 bored .60 over. Flat top pistons, 2.02 291 double hump heads with 1.6 rockers, (I confirmed the heads but not the rockers) I saw pictures of the rebuild but not to great detail, just the block with the heads off. I think it's an older block because it has a block off plate on the front passenger side where the mechanical fuel pump goes. (correct?) he couldn't give me an accurate compression ratio. Torker 2 dual plane intake, comp cam w/ 230d .480L

I have the numbers stamped on the front of the block but had a great amount of trouble finding online where it came from. One site said a 91 silverado but I don't think that model should have a mech fuel pump.

It's off my original topic but here's the numbers in case it will help with what I'm talking about.

V1217upj
Cg4130375

I've triple checked those numbers and they are 100% exactly what's on the block. The CG in the beginning of the second numbers are what had me confused...

Anyway, the motor has had a slow tick since I've had it. It also had excessive blow-by. I took off the valve covers and all my rockers were moving so I guess it isn't a collapsed lifter. Today I pulled all the spark plugs and they weren't too pretty. They all had major oil on the threads, and dry fouling on the inside. 7 of them are autolite 145, and one is a ac Delco r43ts. The Delco plug looked as if it was a lot hotter than the autolites due to a much longer insulator. That's what it is inside right? I'm going to post all the pictures I have in a little bit.

Could these plugs be too cold, since the plugs are fouled? And could it possibly be the cause of the ticking I'm hearing?

Thanks in advance.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

since its been rebuilt, the only thing block casting numbers is gonna tell you is if its infact a 350 block, and what it was originally in. its not gonna help you at all in determinaing whats in the eingine now. you have 2 options, stuff the engine in a car and drive it like it is. or if you REALLY want to know whats in it, take it apart and see for yourself. no numbers on the OUTSIDE of the engine are gonna tell you whats INSIDE it at this point.

but from the sounds of it, it might need a rebuild anyway. oil on the plugs indicates youre getting oil in the combustion chamber. could be the rings are trash, or possibly internal damage. a block thats bored out .060 over, isnt the best canidate for rebuilding. .060 over is about the safest limit you can bore out a stock 350 block. some people refuse to even go that far on it. if you crack it open and find a cylinder wall damage then its time for a new block.

SomethingWild

I read up the same thing.. Blocks are so easy to come by I'll definitely grab another one even just as a spare at the least. When I pull the motor from this junk truck I'm going to pull the heads, I'd rather do it right for peace of mind. The ticking has to come from somewhere. I don't have the tools to compression test but since there is dry fouling on the plug would you suggest a hotter plug?

travis401

iTrader: (1)

could just be lifter tap from a misadjusted lifter, but the oil blow by is what makes me think it needs a rebuild. you might find some unpleasent suprises when you crack it open

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Fouling and thick carbon build-up are two different things. If you have the thick carbon, then it is most likely because the heads need to be reconditioned with guide-liners and new seals. It could also be from a poor piston/ring seal.
In some cases an intake manifold leak, excessive blow-by in the PCV system, or leaking EGR system will cause build-up on the plugs. I would determine the cause/s first before deciding anything about switching sparkplug heat range.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

i completely spaced on the heads. the oil could be getting in from the valve seals and fouling the plugs. when its running, is there blue smoke comming out of the exhaust when its down revving?

SomethingWild

I haven't noticed any smoke at all coming from the exhaust, cold or warmed up. Of course it smells rich as can be and I'm getting about 5mpg

SomethingWild

Let me see if I can stream pictures on here I have a pic of the two different plugs

travis401

iTrader: (1)

running extreamly rich will cause the plugs to foul and build up a lot of carbon.

SomethingWild

Sorry for the low quality. I think the plugs look a little worse in person. Yea I think next weekend I'm going to pull the engine and put it on a stand.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

looks like carbon build up and unburnt fuel from running WAY rich.

SomethingWild

Good to know. I'm just going to get a set of new plugs, the autolite 145's since theyre the majority of what the block has now, and lean out the carb and I'll give an update.

Also, I don't think my th350 helps gas mileage one bit

SomethingWild

And also, just to add while I'm thinking of it, the ticking is silent on startup, but as it warms up After a good minute or so you can hear the ticking like starting up. Like "tick..... Tick.tick...... Tick.tick ticktickticktick

travis401

iTrader: (1)

find where the ticking is comming from. and no the turbo 350 has no overdrive gear. so gas milage on the highway is gonna suck.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Hard to say anything for sure, but yeah that may very well be from too much fuel going in. It looks that way to me too.

Is this a carbureted engine? If it has a power-valve check that first. Maybe swap to another carburetor for a test to narrow down the problem to the fueling. Carbs can leak fuel into the engine because of cracks, bad gaskets, or because of excess fuel pressure. I would eliminate those things before re-jetting or adjusting the carb.

The good news is that your heads and bottom end are probably fine.
If you have a blown power-valve or leaky carb, then expect excess fuel contamination in the oil.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

id stop running the engine till you figure out why its running rich and fix it, then change the oil to get rid of any gas that might have made its way in.

SomethingWild

I figured it was running rich due to the mixture screws being out of wack. You guys don't think I should start there? And a power valve, Is that like a FPR? And I haven't adjusted anything yet on the motor, I figured the previous owner just messed with the screws wrong or something. It's a holly 650 it also has some sort of round disc shaped object mounted to the back of it with two male wire connecting tips on it, that nothing is connected to

SomethingWild

Also most fuel lines going to the carb that I've seen have a fuel gauge on it, this one only has an inline filter.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...ey-tuning.html id start there. the gauge isnt necessary, but nice to have. for a carb you need 5-7 psi from the pump

SomethingWild

Thanks a lot Travis I'll check that out

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Hmmm sounds like you need to do some serious learning about your Holley 650 carb. There is tons of info online, and a few good books at some book-stores. You have to disassemble the carb to get to the powervalve to inspect or change it.
I'm not sure what you describe on the back of your carb ( a pic would help ), but if your carb has a choke (most do) and it's not functioning or adjusted right, then that will cause a rich condition and low mileage.

You do need to inspect and eliminate any problems before doing any kind of adjustment/tuning to your carb. That means that the power valve and choke needs to be functioning correctly, and the carb shouldn't have any type of fuel leaks. You should also eliminate any ignition problems/misfires, and make sure the spark advance is set and functioning correctly before adjusting a carb.

Failing to do things in this order is what gets most people into trouble with carburetors.

SomethingWild

Ok I've researched all the steps outlined in that guide you posted, I can't wait to tear into it. Sadly, I can't until Friday night due to the work week coming back around. Oh well, usually good things happen to those who wait. I'll post an update when I can.

Thanks a lot everybody for seriously fast responses. I was trying to post on another site I won't mention in case it's against regulation here, but it had to do with s10's and v8's. It took like 10 hours to have "my post approved by a mod" and then another 10 to get a reply. No way. I have a buddy that always talked great of Thirdgen and always getting great advice when he had his 1990 GTA. Thanks guys.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

honestly, we get all kinds of people on here posting about all kinds of non 3rd gen related issues. yours technically isnt a 3rd gen related issue, but since you said you wanna stuff the engine into a 3rd gen, were willing to help.

theres a thread over in the cooling board about a caddy northstar engine thats overheating....

SomethingWild

I'm not trying to really snake my way in or anything, I figured this site was appropriate because I'm putting together a 3rdgen. I had one before with an Lo3, loved the car but had no power. I already have a plan in action, I have the heart now I need a body. The truck itself, forget about that thing, it's rough I'm going to scrap it after I pull the motor.

SomethingWild

Ok so an update with the project. I found a buddy through work that has a camaro for cheap so I'm going to be jumping on that opportunity. I can't remember the year he said, I think 85. I replaced the plugs and wires to the motor. I did some research on my carb, apparently it's a Holley 600 vacuum secondary with electric choke. The electric choke is disconnected, and since it's not operational it stays partially open, causing the rich state that the motors in. I'm going to ground it and hook it up to an ignition-on power source. Hopefully that will solve the issues.

SomethingWild

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a4...in/photo-4.jpg

Here's a couple shots of the carb

SomethingWild

travis401

iTrader: (1)

its just one of the older run of the mill holley carbs. they made literally millions of those things. its a 650cfm if im not mistaken.

SomethingWild

Yea I'm pretty sure you can buy this thing new at autozone for 150 or something. I am getting an edelbrock rpm and Holley 750 DP next payday, but won't be putting them on till the motors pulled, and after i Figure out where the ticking is coming from. I'm hoping this guy wasn't BSing me about the camaro. I'll give an update soon.

Also, I'm pretty sure the ticking is coming from beneath both valve covers, if I put a long screwdriver on the inner rear valve cover bolt I can hear it pretty loud, and sounds the same on both sides of the engine. Does there happen to be specific things that would cause the ticking in the same spot on both sides of the motor?

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

Well, your electric choke isn't connected to a power source, but since it appears to be wired-open, it wouldn't be what is causing you to run rich.
I think I would check for fuel leaks and check the power-valve next.

SomethingWild

How can you tell it's "wired open" is it because the black cap is upside down?

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

The choke mechanism is the blade(flap) above the primary bores of your carburetor. The blade is clearly wide open.

A properly functioning choke starts out in the mostly-closed position when cold. Does yours do that?
Normally the electric supply will heat a coil (inside the black cover) which will pull on the actuator rod and open that flap. That's how an electric choke works.
Some chokes work on heat from the engine (heat-riser, or exhaust crossover in the intake manifold).

Manual chokes have a long cable that goes to a lever that the driver operates at will.

When the choke is closed it creates added signal to the idle & primary circuits in the carb which causes warm-up fuel enrichment.

Like I said, all of this information and more is out there about your carburetor.

SomethingWild

Thank you very much. And you've proved it to me, I'll be back on here after I've wised up with what I have because I hate asking stupid questions. it wasn't until reading your response that I realized it was pretty basic principals that you outlined. I want to be an asset to this site instead of including myself in the massive amount of "search first" questions. Thanks again guys

travis401

iTrader: (1)

lifter tap. needs the lifters adjusted.

izcain

Compression test and leak down test will tell you alot of the general health of the engine.

You can also pull one spark plug wire at a time while the engine is running and see if the knock subsides when a certain wire if pulled. If it is something like a wristpin or rod knock sometimes the knock will subside when you cut power to that cylinder. Next I would pull the valve covers and look over all the rockers and see if something isn't loose or broken

The Torker II intake is a single plane intake also.

Casting numbers on the back by bell housing will tell you what you are looking for.

SomethingWild

Yea I dont know why I put dual plane, thanks for the correction.

izcain

I wasn't trying to sound bad I was just wanting to make sure you knew what you had thats all man!

SomethingWild

Oh no I totally get what you meant lol thanks and I know it was good intention. it's hard writing online because things get taken the wrong way. I didn't realize I put dual plane before.

And by the way, I took a video of the ticking noise just for giggles. It is very prominent after I rev the motor from under the hood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKMJB...e_gdata_player

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

I have heard this sound before on someone's engine. i just can't remember right now which problem was directly associated with the sound.
I know that I would check out a few things for sure.
The problems I have seen with odd sounds are:
cracked exhaust valve
bent valve head (not seating completely)
shot valve-guide (slop)
broken piston skirt
bent connecting rod (causing piston noise)
bad lifter
rocker arms hitting valvespring retainers


Does it ever backfire through the carburetor while you're driving it hard?

I agree with pulling the plug wires while it's running to look for an odd cylinder. I would do a compression test on them all too.
You may also want to try letting the engine run with the valve-covers off to try to narrow the sound to one set of valvetrain components. (this can get messy).

by the way "Good ole Raburn County!"
I'm originally from that area (Franklin) and have some family & friends in Rabun.

SomethingWild

It just amazes me because he said this engine has less than 1500 miles on it, says PO (and I know how accurate that can be...) even though we haven't pinpointed it yet, I have to drive it to work, I hope it doesn't get worse..

I just moved up here to rabun co. A little over a month ago from Orlando, I'm liking it so far. I didn't think I'd find anyone online from this little town!

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

It's not unheard of for a fresh engine to have a problem from the get-go, or in a very short amount of time. It's the first few miles where you find most of the issues or weak-links.
You can get 99% of everything right on a fresh build, but it won't matter if the 1% is not right. Some people aren't thorough enough to closely check all 16 valves and seats, or they forget one valve during preload adjustment.
Hopefully it's not too serious.

izcain

I would pull the valve covers before too much more running I bet you will find a problem!

Sounds like valvetrain noise. Normally if it is something down low you would see it on the oil pressure gauge also.

SomethingWild

Well I pulled the valve covers off about a week ago and ran the engine to watch the rockers. I didn't really know what to look for at the time, and even right now I don't have many more ideas to look at other than to feel the rods to see if they are loose. All of the rockers moved the same, so at the time I ruled out sticky lifter because I figured a rocker wouldn't move if a lifter was stuck. I'll pull them again soon and check them out.

SomethingWild

And it's nuts how something as simple as a valve cover gasket can be such a PITA

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

That's not necessarily the case. A lifter can be collapsing enough under max spring load to cause a small bit of clearance that you will hear, but not always see. You can visually inspect springs and look for rocker-to-retainer contact.
If your engine revs normally to 5000 RPM and higher, then it's unlikely you have a bad/collapsing lifter.

edit: also, a broken piston skirt can be noisy but not show up on a compression test or cause a drop in oil pressure.

SomethingWild

The noise is similar to other engines with piston skirt damage, says YouTube. And I guess that would explain the blow-by too, right? And the noise gets louder as it warms up, which would be the clearances becoming larger in the motor and that piston being able to wobble in there right? If all this information is correct, then it's an answer for all the problems im having.

I drove it to work today, and let me tell you the thing sounds like a dam diesel with that ticking, it sounds like its coming right from the firewall.

SomethingWild

Here's an update. I'm leaving work and the service manager for the dealership I work at comes out, checks out the engine and says tomorrow morning he's going to take the stethoscope to it. I hop in, and drive home. I'm doing the most spirited driving that I have with this ride, and I'm revving it through the gears, turn into my driveway and put it in park. I'm thinking to myself, something sounds different...? Wait, the tickings gone!

I pop the Hood and listen for a good while, tugging the throttle here an there. I shut it off to cool down and turn it on, still no sound.

I'm guessing two things. Either one, the spirited driving sorted whatever the ticking was out. Or two, whatever making the noise broke off and there's more damage than I can hear lol! Do lifters sort themselves out? I did happen to do an oil change recently and the oil was extremely dark, maybe I freed up some crud on a lifter?

I dunno but I do feel relieved in a sense

SomethingWild

Yea nope, for some reason now it likes to only make the sound in drive.