I'm starting a new thread on this. Some of you have been following my previous thread "1989 Firebird Oil Pressure Question".

So my mechanic says the 350 is toast. I'm not a mechanic and I trust him so I'm looking for a new engine. My mechanic is going to do the work for me (he's built and raced Camaros for a lot of years and runs his own shop) I want to keep it as simple as possible and around $3250 including labor (cheaper the better of course).

Here's what I would like to end up with:

• 300 - 350hp
• 350 tq give or take
• 87 octane pump gas
• keep it fuel injected
• use as many parts off my current engine (has several new parts). I have headers, MCI dist and ignition, auto with shift kit (2k stall), posi with 3.42, subframe connectors.

I was planning on getting a GM crate long block and bolt on my existing stuff, but am told that GM no longer has a direct replacement. There are other GM crates (12499529) but there seems to be some question as to whether the TPI will bolt up to this or any other and what the horsepower would end up being. I will consider most anything, even going with a carb (not sure what that does to the computer stuff or anything else).

Here's where I need you. Given I'm open to most anything (remember my budget, keeping it simple, and I'm not an engine mechanic), what should I consider? I'm ready to move. Preferably something where I can pull my engine and replace with another complete engine or pull mine and swap parts to the new one.

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Additional info added 1/26/2013 @ 12:00pm ET

Mechanic said there was a rod knocking and again lots of metal in the oil filter & pan. He said it could have seized at any moment. That being said, not sure what from my engine itself is still usable.

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Thanks in advance for you help.

Chris

 

The tpi will bolt to the 12499529 if you elongate the 4 inner intake bolts and you will need to buy a flexplate for a 84-86 camaro or v8 firebird. If you looking for lower buck you should have your 083 heads rebuilt and slap them on a gm 12520270 and install a crane came and use your roller lifter setup out of your old engine.

 

search these forums there have been a few threads over the past year on this topic. I recall recently a TX based rebuilder thread. Will help you match yr budget to yr power expectations.

 

Get a GM short block, I have used them many times on mild combos. It is all new stuff.
The shortblock number for the 96 truck is 12556121.
More info in your other thread.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12556121

 

Thanks for the replies so far.

Ttop, I'm checking out the shortblock suggestion. Appears its not available at Summit, but available at a few places. With my engine the way it is, rod knocking, metal in the oil, should most of the top half of the engine still be useable? Sorry to ask so many questions, but I know little about building/rebuilding engines.

 

+1

 

You may not be able to get it thru summit, I got mine from GM(i get a huge deal). If you do some searching you'll find a good price.
As far as using everything else, yes, go for it. Just make sure everything is clean. Pushrods, lifters (roll easy and you pump oil thru them) and all, its not hard to just clean everything, oil and reassemble. I've done 5 or 6 cars now and they are still rockn several years later.

 

Ok, so if I go with a long block I'm thinking one of these GM Crate engines (12499529, 12530282, 12530283). If I go with one of these, I will be using the TPI from my current engine. It also has hedman headers that I will use. Any preferences out of the 3? My car will be mostly used for weekend driving.

http://www.summitracing.com/compare

If I can go with a short block I'm thinking

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12556121

 

1st one the shortblock, yes, do it, its work to cleanup your old stuff but you will be happy with it.
2nd one maybe is a rebuilt motor due to core charge? You will have to change the timing chain cover an balancer plus you will want to pitch the heads, (I think they are really TBI heads). If not, you'll have to buy a 400$ TPI intake base to work with the vortech heads.
3rd is the same as the 2nd but its new and it comes with vortec heads?????

 

Thanks for all the input. Due to time constraints and lack of knowledge, here's what I'm planning to do:

Going with this engine http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12530283

Going to remove the TPI and go with this intake http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7116 . I can get a 7101 intake for $100, but not sure if it will work with the engine due to the vortec heads. Anybody know if it will or it for sure it won't?

Somewhere around a 650 cfm carb (yes, I'm giving up on the TPI because it appears to get more complicated). Any suggestions on the best carb (performance and $$ should be considered) for this setup?

I've got my complete L98 350 with MSD ignition and distrbutor, all the pulleys, altenator, starter, a/c compressor, hedman headers, etc. I assume all of this is useable on the new engine. I'm assuming the in tank fuel pump will do the job.

Let me know what you think of this setup and whether or not what I already have will work or not. Let me know if there is anythinge else I will have to buy (maybe a different flexplate). This just seems the simplest and quickest route for me to go.

I'm going to add a link to this thread under the Engine Swap forum. In all my newbieness, this thread my have been better suited there.

Thanks for all you input and help,

Chris

 

Ugh, another carb swap...
I can see many more threads coming, Where did all my lowend tq go?, Why am I only getting 10 mpg? , Which distributor$$$ do i need to use now? How do I tune this carb?,where is the gas smell coming from?, and How come this carb is flooding over ? You mean the stock fuel pump$$$ is to much for a carb?

I'm not trying to be a D**k but trying to help, get the short block(or that longblock with a vortec TPI base), keep the TPI, save the headach and future time lost.
Either way, Good luck with your swap.

 

Absolutly No Good reason for you to switch to a Carb. You are only decreasing the Fuel milage, drivability and value of your car.

 

Most people that can't figure out TPI can't tune a carb either.

 

Sorry TTOP. I really appreciate your input, but that Vortech intake is pricey and it appears there needs to be computer upgrades (flash, tune, etc.), an EGR thing to deal with, and I'm not sure what else. I'm not smart enough to put all these pieces together. For people like me, there are always things coming up that you don't have a clue about when doing something like this. It seems like there is always a hundred different ways to skin a cat. I end up racking my brain trying to come up with the right way to go and end up at a point that I just don't want to go there anymore. I would really like to stay with the TPI, but.....!

That being said, seems like the easiest thing to do and end up with a decent engine is to use the L31, slap a carb on it, and enjoy. I'm really looking forward to the "enjoy" part. Assuming everything else is useable from my old engine, all of have to decide on is the carb and who to buy from.

 

 

The carb swap won't be as easy as you think.
How much is the carb? How much is the new air cleaner? How much is the intake? How much is the fuel PSI regulator you will need? How much is the correct fuel pump you will need?? How much is the new distributor you will need?? How much is the new distributor gear you will need for the roller cam??
All that is more than the intake cost.

You have a 89 formula 350, It will be fine with a TPI on a vortec motor. As mild as this swap is you can get by without tuning it.

 

Good carb $500

Mallory reg to use stock pump $150

Fuel lines to adapt, about $100

Air cleaner $50

etc......

Then you need, a different throttle cable, and brackets......


When its done, you will have spent more, and left a lot of Good usable torque on the floor with the tpi intake.

 

350 punched to 355. pick a good computer controlled cam, good heads anf full bolt-ons....done!!!

 

You should really listen to TTOP here. You'll spend more for the carb swap than just buying an intake base. This stuff isn't rocket science to figure out. After all you logged into the forum, the tuff part is over. That little search box that's often overlooked up there can answer most any question in a matter of mere minutes. The issue most people have is taking the time to READ. There isn't hardly anything to putting a vortech motor in.

Going with a carb is a financial mistake.

 

Um, if your comment is directed to me, I am mearly backing up what ttop is saying.

If you are commenting to the OP, sorry, and yes, he should listen to ttop and me.

 

He was, your post has a better pricing list and easier to quote

 

3rd vote for tpi

 

Ya sorry, that was towards the OP.

 

No problem!

Maybe together we can save another TPI car!

 

Ok guys, I'm listening. Like I said, I would prefer to stay TPI. I will be having someone do this for me, but I have to make most of the decisions. I have spent hours searching, reading, and can't really find one place that lists exactly what all I need to do to make the L31 work. Most of the things I've seen get into upgrading the cam, and this or that. Nothing I have found is a straight forward list of what you need to do.

So that being said, lets make a straight forward list of what it would take to do this swap. Here's the start:

What I got
- An '89 L98 w/TPI and all the standard bolt ons including a/c
- Hedman headers (hed-68460)
- MSD ignition (msd 8226 - dual connector)
- MSD distributor (msd 8366 external coil dist)
- 22lb fuel injectors (summit acc-150824)
- 30 spline 2000 stall (summit sum-g2704)

What I need
- GM Crate 12530283 right out of the crate (approx $2100)
- Vortec intake (approx $500 with gaskets & egr stuff)
- exhaust gaskets
- fluids
- maybe a torque converter (while the engine and tranny are out)

What else?

If you need more info from me, be specific and I will to my best to help you help me.

 

Vortec intake approx $500, you should look around, I have seen it for 400.
Whats wrong with your stock distributor?

Maaaybe new injs from south bay if yours are stock. 22lbs

oil, filter, coolant, T-stat w gasket, vortec intake gaskets (if they don't come with motor) and TPI gaskets.
Felpro 1405 exhaust gaskets and 1" long bolts with small head for your headers.That should do it.

If you want to get a lil silly, throw a nice tq converter in the car while motor is out.

 

Updated the parts list above

 

https://sdparts.com/index.php?q=deta...-center/sd3816


If you need a new dist save $120 and buy this
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ms...make/chevrolet


Rebuilt Bosch III from $190 a set ,save another $100

In fact with the $$ you save , you could buy a Vortec HSR instead of the Vortec TPI base ( which only gives you a stock TPI )
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-7542/

and some cheap fuel rails /AFPR
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...tive-fuel.html

and get even more perf out of your new Vortec engine

 

INJs
http://www.southbayfuelinjectors.com...7&product=1502

That Converter prolly isn't the best choice. Go atleast 2500rpm and a good name brand. (if you do it)

Here is a nice little write up on the swap and some extra stuff you may need if you need egr.
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...d/viewall.html

Where are you located??

VetteOZ you beat me to it lol He has a bird so the HSR may or may not fit without some hood brace cutting. I'd like to see a better intake also but I don't know the budget so I'm trying to keep it semi cheap for him.

 

But if he was prepared to buy the parts he listed ( and presumably has the $$$ to do so ) he could get a better end result by more prudent spending ?

 

Some great suggestions for keeping it tpi.
Stealth ram would be a good choice, but maybe some drawbacks to it. Hw may have tough emissions testing, fuel lines will be needed. I have seen a few threads here concerning the casting quality as of late.
Then again, some say thr vortec base sucks.
I have seen some good results with both.

Either way, he'll be better off then if he went with a carb!

 

I've updated the list in post #25.

Really appreciating all the input.

TTOP, I'm located in Knoxville, TN. I've read the article in the link you provided. That's where I came to the conclusion that I was going to need an intake to go with this engine.

Ok so for now, lets consider only the Vortec intake (the HSR looks really cool, but one thing at a time). Based on the "What I Need" list in post #25, is sounds like I should consider a better converter and better injectors. Is that it? Anything else of any significance? With these things I'm looking at easily $4k with installation (approx $850). I started this little adventure with hoping to keep it around $3k.

 

Pulling the engine this weekend. Still hadn't decided what I'm going to do. Going to have it checked to see if it's rebuildable or at least suitable for a core exchange.

Decisions to come!

 

I have a new out of box but dirty from sitting on a shelf vortec TPI base here. Its a friend of mines. He wants 350 plus half of the shipping.
That could save you some $$ Its unported.

 

Thanks TTOP. I will definitely keep it in mind.

 

Unless there is a hole in the block, it should be rebuildable.

A better option then a crate imo.

Good luck!

 

Thanks Blaze. I suspect I will end up with a rebuild due to simplicity. Don't have to worry about figuring out if all the pieces play nice together. If it can't be rebuilt then I'm leaning towards the L31 w/TPI.

 

Sounds good. Throw a little cam in there and you'll be good.

A lot of people go with LT 1 cams, you can get them cheap and the computer likes them.

 

A LT1 cam isn't much bigger than a 89 350s. Throw 1.6 rockers on it and it'll be fine.
Unless you want a cam..

 

Ok guys, sorry for the long absence but some issues came up and had to put this on hold for a little while.

It's back on now and here's the scoop (remember, I'm not an engine guy so I will do the best I can to describe). The engine is out and it's not good. It was supposed to have been bored .030 over. It appears the cylinders are more on the oval side vs. round. Several cylinders where checked and they are more like .060 x .090. Regardless, I'm told it can't be bored again as the walls would be to thin. When they looked at the crankshaft, before they did anything to it, it had some movement (wiggle) to it. Was told that wasn't good. Looking at the end of the camshaft you could see were it had grooves cut into it.

That being said, I'm told that my block is no longer useable. So I'm kind of back at the beginning and considering the following:

1. I can get the same L98 engine and rebuild it with some good parts (mild cam, pistons, etc). Approx. $4k for machining, parts, assembly, and installation w/12 mos, 12k mile warranty parts and labor (includes pulling the old engine)
2. Go with the GM Crate 12499529 (the 290hp engine). Approx $2k for the engine and approx $1400 labor (includes pulling the old engine) so approx $3400 total. Was told by GM Performance that swapping the cam to the 350HO cam would increase vaccum and get me more power below 3K RPMs. If I do this, maybe add $200 for the cam and some labor so were getting close to $3700. Will require a little work to get the TPI to bolt up to it.
3. Go with GM Crate 12530283 (the L31 truck engine). Approx $2k for the engine, $500 for the TPI manifold, and $1400 labor (includes pulling the old engine) so approx $3900 total.

I don't have the knowledge to piece things together so I'm really looking for the simplest solution. My engine guy is a reputable guy that I trust so I believe what he tells me. He gave me some prices on a Jasper engine, but they were higher than option 1 above and you here lots of comments (pros & cons) about them.

I really like option 3, but I've read questionable things about the quality of the TPI intake plus it sounds like there are other changes that would have to be taken into consideration. What else has to be taken into consideration if I go this way (egr, tune, dist, injectors, etc.)? If I go with option 1, it's pretty much plug and play.

So I think it is option 1 for me unless someone can give me some significant reasons to do otherwise. Remember, I'm not an engine guy and a lot of this is greek to me, therefore keeping it simple is a big factor in my decision.

Thanks for reading this again. Let me know what you think.

Chris

 

Yes, you can go with any new engine with whatever hp rating,but TPI is going to bring your hp back down a lot. Like other members have stated. There is a Vortech TPI intake made by Scoggin Dickey. You can get them for around $450,maybe cheaper used. Put it this way, TPI heads and intake are both limiting factors. The newer GM 350's made more hp because they had way better heads and a intake that allowed higher rpm power.

 

I say buy a Vortec shortblock(comes with vortec heads), then buy a scoggin dickey tpi intake. Your mechanic should have no trouble swapping intakes. Especially if the engine is out of the car! Then getting a new chip burned is the easy part. Many companies out there that can get your tune pretty close for that combo. This should get you about 305 hp. Probably cost you under $3k for the engine and intake alone.

 

By convention, a "shortblock" is block, crank, rods, pistons, rings, and bearings. Sometimes cam, sometimes no cam. But never heads.

A "longblock", on the other hand, includes the above plus heads and typically cam, pushrods, rockers. It doesn't include intake manifold, distributor, water pump, starter. May or may not include covers and pan. May include damper.

But I'm sure you meant "longblock", right?

 

Was thinking the same thing five7kid. The GM Crate part #s above are all long blocks. There is the ZZ4 short block (GM Part # 12561723) at approx $2300. Not sure if this is an option or not. Would need to swap the top end of my motor to this short block to rein the cost in. Is this a valid option? Not sure what CC the head are on my L98.

 

Go with the truck shortblock (i get them lots cheaper than 2k) and put your heads/intake/cam on it. Done deal.
Or do the truck longblock, grab a SDPC vortec lower, decent cam and be done.
Not hard to keep it cheapish and add a lil power, if you want.
(i still have that intake) hes doing 350 shipped now.

 

Just as an FYI, I also considered getting this short block (GM 12556121) that TTOP350 suggested, but it appears to be a discontinued part everywhere I look.

 

Do you have to get emissions tested?

 

Nope!

 

Yep, thats what im getting also. I just checked on it when you 1st started this thread and I could still get em!

Well, step up to the vortec longblock, cam and special TPI intake.
It'll make a lil more power for ya than a stock l98.

 

What a difference 2 mos can make in getting parts. Thanks again for you input. I'm meeting with my engine guy tomorrow to make the final call. I'll have to see what he says about the vortec longblock and how that will impact things overall from his perspective.