Tech / General Engine Is your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: CARiD

buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Aug 21, 2013 | 01:30 PM
  #1  
Rice01's Avatar
Thread Starter
Member
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: Northern Nevada
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Camaro
Engine: 383ci SBC
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 2.77 9 bolt borg warner
buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

getting ready to stroke out my l98 350TPI motor and had a few questions about that motor so I pick the correct kit.

1 or 2 piece rear main?

Internally or externally balanced?

my target goal is roughly 350hp, nothing too exciting but I want to be sure that a cast crank will reliably hold that kind of power with a safety of lets say 400hp just in case I decide to make changes in the future. I know the forged cranks are the safer way to go, but pinching pennies is dictating another course of action.
Reply
Old Aug 21, 2013 | 07:53 PM
  #2  
DeltaElite121's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 1
From: St.Louis, IL
Car: 1988 Camaro
Engine: 377
Transmission: TH350; Circle D 4200 converter
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by Rice01
getting ready to stroke out my l98 350TPI motor and had a few questions about that motor so I pick the correct kit.

1 or 2 piece rear main?

Internally or externally balanced?

my target goal is roughly 350hp, nothing too exciting but I want to be sure that a cast crank will reliably hold that kind of power with a safety of lets say 400hp just in case I decide to make changes in the future. I know the forged cranks are the safer way to go, but pinching pennies is dictating another course of action.
if it's the original motor it's a 1 piece rear main. Don't buy an externally balanced setup. Pay the meager extra and get an internal balanced assembly. Make sure you get GOOD pistons and forged rods. I recommend SCAT for their 9000 series cast cranks. You don't need a forged crank for what you're doing, and they can definitely hold the abuse just fine even in higher HP applications.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 12:12 AM
  #3  
Rice01's Avatar
Thread Starter
Member
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: Northern Nevada
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Camaro
Engine: 383ci SBC
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 2.77 9 bolt borg warner
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Awesome, Thank you very much
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 12:43 AM
  #4  
vetteoz's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
iTrader: (13)
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7,736
Likes: 14
From: Not in Kansas anymore
Car: 82 Z28
Engine: 383 SP EFI/ 4150 TB
Transmission: T400
Axle/Gears: QP 9" 3.73
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by Rice01
Internally or externally balanced?
Stay with the stock 1 pce crank balance arrangement
You get to use the flexplate you already have and if you need a replacement anytime it can be bought at any parts place.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 06:37 AM
  #5  
sofakingdom's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Community Builder
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 27,867
Likes: 2,428
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Stay with the stock 1 pce crank balance arrangement
You get to use the flexplate you already have and if you need a replacement anytime it can be bought at any parts place.
Exactly:

The 1-pc 305 & 350 are internally balanced, with the rearmost internal counterweight located on the flex plate or flywheel. This causes ENDLESS confusion in the marketplace, since people mostly have no clue what "internal" and "external" balance REALLY refer to, and somehow are deceived into thinking that it means which side of the bolt split the weight is on. It does NOT mean that. Those motors are NOT "external" balance, regardless of the obvious fact that there is a weight mounted on the "external" piece.

Best to avoid those terms altogether in your search. They will do NOTHING BUT get you in trouble. Instead, use the word "stock". You want "stock" balance; no special flywheel or flex plate of ANY kind, no "matching" one provided in the kit, NONE of that. Make sure that whatever kit you get, your STOCK one can be used without modification, and all will be well.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 10:01 AM
  #6  
FRMULA88's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,592
Likes: 31
From: IL
Car: 1988 Formula
Engine: 421 Little M block
Transmission: TH400 w/brake
Axle/Gears: 9" 4.30s, Wilwood discs, 28X10.5-15
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Then start the build right.. if you plan to make more power like you state... the cast crank will be the weak link.

You do have economical choices for a forged crank, Eagle makes a very decent product that will not break the bank.

http://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?op...d=38&Itemid=36
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 01:46 PM
  #7  
3rdgenmaro's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 18
From: Lincolnton, NC
Car: 88 IROC
Engine: 97 5.7 Vortec LT4 hotcam
Transmission: 700 r4
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Disagree. There will always be a weak link in every build. At some point you have to look at the goals and make decisions. A good cast crank will be fine for what he wants and even alittle further above that.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 03:22 PM
  #8  
FRMULA88's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,592
Likes: 31
From: IL
Car: 1988 Formula
Engine: 421 Little M block
Transmission: TH400 w/brake
Axle/Gears: 9" 4.30s, Wilwood discs, 28X10.5-15
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

You make like to your chances on your build with your money..

Just remember being a cheapskate has a nasty way of repaying you when you least expect it.


I prefer to spend a little bit more, do it right the first time and not worry about what will happen later on when I want to make more power.

any competent engine builder will tell you the same thing.. if you plan to race it.. you put a forged crank in it.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 03:58 PM
  #9  
88gunmetalgta's Avatar
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 2
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

^agreed on not going cheap on an engine, but completely disagree that an engine that was built with a cast crank cannot have been built right... 350hp is stock crank territory.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 04:26 PM
  #10  
DeltaElite121's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 1
From: St.Louis, IL
Car: 1988 Camaro
Engine: 377
Transmission: TH350; Circle D 4200 converter
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by FRMULA88
You make like to your chances on your build with your money..

Just remember being a cheapskate has a nasty way of repaying you when you least expect it.


I prefer to spend a little bit more, do it right the first time and not worry about what will happen later on when I want to make more power.

any competent engine builder will tell you the same thing.. if you plan to race it.. you put a forged crank in it.
forged cranks are completely overkill for the average hobbyist racer. There are plenty of people well into the 10's on cast cranks. As long as he keeps the crank under 7200 RPM's or so he'll be completely fine. HP doesn't kill cranks, RPM does. I would only recommend a forged crank for someone ripping some serious RPM's (7500+), and I seriously doubt this individual has plans for that.... and if he does, then I agree that a forged lightened crank with light rods and pistons is in order.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 06:18 PM
  #11  
FRMULA88's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,592
Likes: 31
From: IL
Car: 1988 Formula
Engine: 421 Little M block
Transmission: TH400 w/brake
Axle/Gears: 9" 4.30s, Wilwood discs, 28X10.5-15
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Not for the feeble-minded:

http://www.autosteel.org/~/media/Fil...ve_summary.pdf


To be brief:

for a bit more money you get a MUCH better crankshaft.


but you draw your conclusion...

All the 12s and faster racers I know run a forged crank.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 06:23 PM
  #12  
FRMULA88's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,592
Likes: 31
From: IL
Car: 1988 Formula
Engine: 421 Little M block
Transmission: TH400 w/brake
Axle/Gears: 9" 4.30s, Wilwood discs, 28X10.5-15
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by DeltaElite121
forged cranks are completely overkill for the average hobbyist racer. There are plenty of people well into the 10's on cast cranks. As long as he keeps the crank under 7200 RPM's or so he'll be completely fine. HP doesn't kill cranks, RPM does. I would only recommend a forged crank for someone ripping some serious RPM's (7500+), and I seriously doubt this individual has plans for that.... and if he does, then I agree that a forged lightened crank with light rods and pistons is in order.
that's a pretty bold statement... what data do you have to back that up?
every racer I know, myself included, use a forged crank.

"Fatigue is the primary cause of failure of crankshafts due
to the cyclic loading and presence of stress concentrations at the fillets."

You can fracture a cast crank on the starting line at 3000 RPM with the trans-brake.

or dumping the clutch at 4000 RPM launching a stick shift car.


Anyone with common sence knows this.. which is why you get the best forged piece you can afford for your application. Cast cranks are meant for OEM low HP / low TQ engines not subjected to the abuse of racing...

anyone truly in the 10s is going 130 + MPH @ over 5000 RPM thru the traps, this is something a stock cast crank was not engineered for.

You are playing russian roulette with a cast crank at that power level,it is on borrowed time. LOL those same guys you know are using the stock head bolts too you know becaue head studs are overkill..

give it a rest and give me a break,,, I know BS when i smell it.

Last edited by FRMULA88; Aug 22, 2013 at 06:37 PM.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 07:08 PM
  #13  
88gunmetalgta's Avatar
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 2
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

OPs not gonna be running 10s or 130 mph. Or even low 12s for that matter. I would advise anyone who plans on running 11s have a forged crank.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 07:51 PM
  #14  
3rdgenmaro's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 18
From: Lincolnton, NC
Car: 88 IROC
Engine: 97 5.7 Vortec LT4 hotcam
Transmission: 700 r4
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

He might as well buy a dart block, 9 inch rear, H beam rods, etc. Cant have a wink link at 350 hp!

Ridiculous. I agree about not going cheap, but there is a time and place. If you are realistic with yourself about your goals, then you can afford to save some money in parts.
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 08:01 PM
  #15  
DeltaElite121's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 1
From: St.Louis, IL
Car: 1988 Camaro
Engine: 377
Transmission: TH350; Circle D 4200 converter
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

You can call BS all you want. I just got done working on my friend's son's S10 for test&tune STL last night... vehicle drops consistant 10.6's in the quarter @ 3200 lb's shifting at 7000 RPM's. Guess what it's got in it? And care to guess how long it's been running? You can buy all the forged parts in the world and it won't save you from being a retard and making dumb decisions that blow apart your motor.

Might want to lay off the magazines a bit...
Reply
Old Aug 22, 2013 | 08:20 PM
  #16  
NagleMac's Avatar
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 714
Likes: 1
From: Pennsylvania
Car: '91 Camaro RS
Engine: Carb'd 383
Transmission: Built T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Posi
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

A cast crank will be enough for his goals. Is a forged crank better? Of course, but is it necessary? Probably not in the application. Better off saving that extra money for other things.
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2013 | 07:14 AM
  #17  
1gary's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

When companies like the low life Eagle plays name games like "cast steel",from the get go,you have to call it B.S. A good rep company like Howards would never even think of treating it's customers like that.Pay for what you get and get what you pay for.......
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2013 | 07:21 AM
  #18  
88gunmetalgta's Avatar
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 2
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

I prefer scat for a budget build.
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2013 | 07:37 AM
  #19  
FRMULA88's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,592
Likes: 31
From: IL
Car: 1988 Formula
Engine: 421 Little M block
Transmission: TH400 w/brake
Axle/Gears: 9" 4.30s, Wilwood discs, 28X10.5-15
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

[QUOTE=DeltaElite121;5623749]You can call BS all you want. I just got done working on my friend's son's S10 for test&tune STL last night
QUOTE]

you don't say? what was wrong with it?
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2013 | 09:48 AM
  #20  
DeltaElite121's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 1
From: St.Louis, IL
Car: 1988 Camaro
Engine: 377
Transmission: TH350; Circle D 4200 converter
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

[QUOTE=FRMULA88;5624025]
Originally Posted by DeltaElite121
You can call BS all you want. I just got done working on my friend's son's S10 for test&tune STL last night
QUOTE]

you don't say? what was wrong with it?
Transmission was leaking from the pan rail bleeding out all over the place. Everything else was ready to roll.
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2013 | 02:40 PM
  #21  
Rice01's Avatar
Thread Starter
Member
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: Northern Nevada
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Camaro
Engine: 383ci SBC
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 2.77 9 bolt borg warner
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Thanks again guys, but this will not be a strip car, just a reliable freeway flyer(lots of long flat roads here in Nevada) and with my 700r4 in overdrive I shouldn't be getting the rpm's up too high. building the car more for occasional track use than for strip use. I have a handful of decent road courses out here. but primarily just a freeway brawler. something I can put another 100thousand miles on cruising back and forth to the coast, but pass the highschool kid in his mustang that merges on en route.

I'm not trying to be cheap per say, just budget minded for the power I want out of the car. I'm getting my hands on a late sixties Chevelle that will be the nasty big block strip car. IROC is just my grocery getter from hell
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2013 | 03:05 PM
  #22  
1gary's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

You gotta pick and choose what Scat parts to use.Their stroker clearance rod with ARP bolts are too bad for the money you pay for them,(kind of heavy to balance)but their cranks and the QC on the machine work done has a number of questionable issues......
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2013 | 10:21 PM
  #23  
Tibo's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,028
Likes: 78
From: Desert
Car: 1991 Z28 Vert
Engine: 383 single plane efi
Transmission: T-56
Axle/Gears: 8.8 with 3.73s
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by 1gary
You gotta pick and choose what Scat parts to use.Their stroker clearance rod with ARP bolts are too bad for the money you pay for them,(kind of heavy to balance)but their cranks and the QC on the machine work done has a number of questionable issues......
Instead of arguing against your advice, I am now extremely curious to know what parts you would recommend for his basic low-medium horsepower rebuild? You seem to have disdain for Eagle and Scat, so lay it on us and say what parts you recommend.
Reply
Old Aug 23, 2013 | 10:27 PM
  #24  
Tibo's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,028
Likes: 78
From: Desert
Car: 1991 Z28 Vert
Engine: 383 single plane efi
Transmission: T-56
Axle/Gears: 8.8 with 3.73s
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by FRMULA88
Then start the build right.. if you plan to make more power like you state... the cast crank will be the weak link.

You do have economical choices for a forged crank, Eagle makes a very decent product that will not break the bank.

http://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?op...d=38&Itemid=36
Ditto to you too. You are recommending a part that is rated at three times the power level he wants to make.
Reply
Old Aug 24, 2013 | 01:25 AM
  #25  
InfernalVortex's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
iTrader: (4)
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,499
Likes: 31
From: Macon, GA
Car: 1992 Camaro RS
Engine: Vortec headed 355, xe262
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt 3.70
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

I read in one of my books that cast cranks were known to be fine up to 500-600hp. Didnt say it was a good idea, just that they seem to be adequately strong for most hobbyist types. I think it might have even been David Vizard, but I'd have to check on that. Im not a huge believer in David Vizard, but a lot of you guys are...

Anyway, I figure 400hp is fine with a cast crank. Beyond that I think for the money you're investing to make that kind of power, it's silly to not go forged. Also, the Gen III+ stuff is mostly cast crankshafts isnt it? Those things are good up to 1000hp. Of course they use a much stronger block which certainly helps, but that brings me to my other point. I've gotten to a place in my research where it seems like if you go past around 500hp with a Gen I design you're probably going to be a lot better off in the long run with an aftermarket block than you are trying to make a factory block work. I know lots of guys do it, but I've seen some pretty compelling reasons not to. So then the question is... if you need a forged crank, are you going to put it in a factory block? The block is the weak link at that point.

I'm also curious to know what 1gary thinks is a great budget performance build. Maybe a factory crankshaft?

Anyway, at the OP's power level I think it's a total waste of money to go for a forged crank. Even if he later does a huge cam and AFR heads, he still wont make enough power to actually break a cast crank. If he were doing nitrous or forced induction it'd be a little different...

Seems almost like the go forged or go home types are more concerned with machining quality control than actual strenght, at least 1gary is. So 1gary, how woudl you feel if he got a Scat crank and had his machine shop "fix" anything that might be wrong with it? Or is that not sufficient?

Last edited by InfernalVortex; Aug 24, 2013 at 01:31 AM.
Reply
Old Aug 25, 2013 | 08:09 AM
  #26  
1gary's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

The brand name I like the best is Howards.Tight QC standards and very good finish quality.Never found any problems with them and all we have seen meets or exceeds what you pay for.

Name:  crankshaft209.jpg
Views: 33
Size:  40.5 KB

The budget build "mix" I prefer is Howards crank,Scat stroker clearanced ARP bolt rods,I-Con pistons which have a off-set press or floater pin to limit cold piston slap.Internal balanced.Two pc to one pc seal conversion kit as needed.

What customer builds we do are for a unknown future where you have the confidants it will handle most of what he throws at it and long 100,000 mileage usage.Also maintains some resale value.

The low dollar cranks we consistently find from cracks behind number 2 main(bad castings or imitation forgings)to taper on the mains and rod journals so bad that right out of the box you have to cut them .010/.010 to get the clearances.Those companies count on most guys not inspecting their products closely given the thought it is brand new not needing it.Some get lucky and others for a very slim price difference have it come to bite them in the long run.Do-overs cost double.
Reply
Old Feb 14, 2014 | 02:32 AM
  #27  
Rice01's Avatar
Thread Starter
Member
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: Northern Nevada
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Camaro
Engine: 383ci SBC
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 2.77 9 bolt borg warner
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

so looking for the weekend cruiser and understanding the risk I take on the cast crank does this kit raise any other flags as a starting point
Summit Racing
Eagle Street Performance Rotating Assemblies B13454L03053
Reply
Old Feb 14, 2014 | 05:37 PM
  #28  
HINKSON AUTO's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by 1gary
The brand name I like the best is Howards.Tight QC standards and very good finish quality.Never found any problems with them and all we have seen meets or exceeds what you pay for.



The budget build "mix" I prefer is Howards crank,Scat stroker clearanced ARP bolt rods,I-Con pistons which have a off-set press or floater pin to limit cold piston slap.Internal balanced.Two pc to one pc seal conversion kit as needed.

What customer builds we do are for a unknown future where you have the confidants it will handle most of what he throws at it and long 100,000 mileage usage.Also maintains some resale value.

The low dollar cranks we consistently find from cracks behind number 2 main(bad castings or imitation forgings)to taper on the mains and rod journals so bad that right out of the box you have to cut them .010/.010 to get the clearances.Those companies count on most guys not inspecting their products closely given the thought it is brand new not needing it.Some get lucky and others for a very slim price difference have it come to bite them in the long run.Do-overs cost double.
Those are nice cranks and they are machined by Callies
Reply
Old Feb 14, 2014 | 08:55 PM
  #29  
Tibo's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,028
Likes: 78
From: Desert
Car: 1991 Z28 Vert
Engine: 383 single plane efi
Transmission: T-56
Axle/Gears: 8.8 with 3.73s
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by Rice01
so looking for the weekend cruiser and understanding the risk I take on the cast crank does this kit raise any other flags as a starting point
Summit Racing
Eagle Street Performance Rotating Assemblies B13454L03053
If it is just to drive around, dyno once or seldom drag race it then a cast crank will live just fine. If properly assembled and its limits taken into consideration (under 6K rpm, no power adders or excessive power levels) it will have a long enjoyable life.
Reply
Old Feb 14, 2014 | 09:59 PM
  #30  
1gary's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

It's as always,in the big picture matched parts details with it written out on a build sheet and stuck to.Time and again I see guys stroke to 383 and where do they "try" and save money??. Too big of a cam on cheap heads with too small of a induction system on a cheap bottom end. Junk in,junk out. Then want a 11 hr save for it all after it is all said and bought and assembled.You do not put a good set of flowing heads on a cast bottom end. Now I ask you.Is that a reasonable statement??.Why??.Because if your going to use those heads to it's fullest potential, those good set of heads,you have to spin it up.Also-you don't build a 383 with a poor set of flowing heads.Ya kind of see where I'm going with this,don't ya??.
Reply
Old Feb 14, 2014 | 11:48 PM
  #31  
Rice01's Avatar
Thread Starter
Member
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: Northern Nevada
Car: 1988 IROC-Z Camaro
Engine: 383ci SBC
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 2.77 9 bolt borg warner
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

the cam wont be much more aggressive than stock, and I plan on retaining the stock heads until I can save for some aluminum down the road. so really just a L98 with a stroked bottom end to begin with. I will have to get the computer tuned(still trying to find a place in northern Nevada) but the hope is to take the build in steps. all im looking for is that 350 reliable HP area. I have a feeling that that will feel like a dragster compared to the stock 230HP they came with and even less with 20 years of wear on the engine.
Reply
Old Feb 15, 2014 | 01:28 AM
  #32  
articwhiteZ's Avatar
Supreme Member
15 Year Member
iTrader: (56)
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,776
Likes: 101
From: Spokane WA
Car: 92 Lingenfelter Z28 articwhite
Engine: Aluminum 615BBC
Transmission: Th400wbrake/curri entps9" locker
Axle/Gears: 4.11/4.30/4.56
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

just for the record..i ran a cast crank for 7 years of drag racing and street cruising.. in that 7 years it ran 25.000 miles it was a weekend only eng.
with a fogger nos set up (150hp hit).. not all the time...but some times.

car ran 11.70 off nos
10.50 on nos..

when it let go...it was a rod bolt that broke...ARP.

now with more cubes and hp..yes it's a forged crank..
Reply
Old Feb 15, 2014 | 01:35 AM
  #33  
articwhiteZ's Avatar
Supreme Member
15 Year Member
iTrader: (56)
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,776
Likes: 101
From: Spokane WA
Car: 92 Lingenfelter Z28 articwhite
Engine: Aluminum 615BBC
Transmission: Th400wbrake/curri entps9" locker
Axle/Gears: 4.11/4.30/4.56
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Reply
Old Feb 15, 2014 | 04:09 AM
  #34  
1gary's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by articwhiteZ
just for the record..i ran a cast crank for 7 years of drag racing and street cruising.. in that 7 years it ran 25.000 miles it was a weekend only eng.
with a fogger nos set up (150hp hit).. not all the time...but some times.

car ran 11.70 off nos
10.50 on nos..

when it let go...it was a rod bolt that broke...ARP.

now with more cubes and hp..yes it's a forged crank..
That was a LPE engine.That is a huge difference.
Reply
Old Feb 15, 2014 | 07:51 AM
  #35  
jokerZ71's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 296
Likes: 0
From: Stanton,Tn.
Car: 97 Z71 Extended Cab
Engine: 5.7 Vortec
Transmission: 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3:42
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

For your HP goals & mainly the type usage ,a cast crank will be fine.With a GM cast crank,I wouldn't be scared of 500 HP.With an aftermarket 450 is the top.Scat is a decent crank for the money.Eagle had some issues @ 1 time & that follows them today.For the most part they have improved.It's important to go over any aftermarket part & ck it out for sizing & balance.Ohio Crank @ 1 time had decent cranks.They were offshore blanks that were completed & machined here.
Reply
Old Feb 15, 2014 | 06:46 PM
  #36  
InfernalVortex's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
iTrader: (4)
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,499
Likes: 31
From: Macon, GA
Car: 1992 Camaro RS
Engine: Vortec headed 355, xe262
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt 3.70
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

David Vizard in "How to Rebuild Your Small Block Chevy"

You may find you have ad amaged forged crank in your engine. Some people are wary of changing forged ranks for cast cranks, believing cast ones to be inferior. Unless you have a very high-performance small-block Chevy, this really isn't the case. For applications up to 6500 rpm, the cast crank is as good, possibly even superior to teh forged crank. They seem to suffer less breakage and last at least as long in terms of wear. SO if you find a cast crank in good condition, have no hesitation in using it in your engine so long as it has main- and rod-journal sizes which will work with your block and rods. The stroke length must also be the same as the one you are replacing as well.

If you find you need another crank as well as a rebore, you can use any stroke length you want as long as the crank physically fits int eh block. The pistons used must then be those with teh correct piston pin (wrist pin) to crown height. This is known as the compression height. Be sure you get pistons to match teh stroke of teh crankshaft. Rods may also need to be changed as some differences exist, as explained in the following paragraph...
David Vizard in "How to build max performance Chevy small blocks on a budget"

Crankshafts: cast or forged?

You may have heard that a forged crank is the way to go. You heard correctly, but his should in no way imply that Chevrolet's cast cranks are second best. Far from it. Chevrolet forged cranks are good, but the cast cranks are, for many applications, just as good, and in some instances, better. Properly prepped, a cast crank is fine in a circle-track motor of 400-plus horsepower, and I've seen them survive 200 passes down the strip in motors making 600 horsepower. Although the latter may be an extreme, and a certain amount of luck may be involved, it does show that they are relatively stout pieces.

Cracked forged cranks show up at the rate of about 10 to every cast crank. this means that if you have a forged crank, it's imperative it be crack tested and discarded ifa ny cracks are revelaed. Althoguh cast cranks havel ess outright strength than steel forgings, they have more internal damping. Unlike steel, they do not "rin" as easily and, as a result if they're not stressed to their limit, the fatigue/wear life is as good or better. Althoguh they may be made of a material only 65 percent of thes trnegth of a stock chevy forged crank, they last and deal with stresses as if they were more like 80 percent of the strenght. Also, cast iron has better wear properties than a non heat-treated steel so it can last significantly longer. With a good damper, a cast crank is fine in a 450-horsepower street motor and remembering that most quoted horsepower numbers are inflated, 450 genuine horsepower makes any street car into a flyer.
This section is particular interesting because he actually recommends that you turn a crank and make sure that they use new cutters to increase the fillet radius at each journal.

But on the next page, he says this:

If you buy a Scat cast steel crank to build a 383, it will ahve zero time on it, and from the right source it will cost about 425 to 450 percent of the cost of a straight 350 regrind. You can see how the economics are shaping up.

In 1998 dollars, a Scat crank costs about $175 more than a stock crank regrind. This additional outlay in a .030 over block delivers 28 more cubic inches. If you build to the book(this book, that is) you are unlikely to see less than 1.1 lb-ft of torque per cube with 1.2 to 1.25 being more common. This means the additional outlay of $175 delivers between 30 to 34 extra lb-ft, with most of this icnrease showing up in the usable rev range. That works out to about $5.50 per lb-ft increase.

That's less than 40 percent of the cost per lb-ft of that delivered by a typical bolt-on blower installation. Assuming a moderate cam that allows peak power at 6000 RPM, the extra inches provided by the crank are worth between 34 and 40 horsepower. If it's a race application, the advantages of a longer-stroke crank in a 35- don't stop there, espeically if your budget means using production-type heads with a low set plug position.

Bigger displacemetn means teh ability to achieve a higher compression ratio without compromising the chamber shape with excessively high piston crowns. Often it's possible to achieve the desired ratio with cheaper and lighter flat top pistons. Having a better chamber in a 13/1 motor alone can account fora minimum of 10 additional horsepower. In terms of performance, the Scat 383 crank looks like a winner but you may be asking just how good can a crank be for costing appreciably less than a new cheavy cast crank?

I asked that question of an umber of engine builders before I put one of those cranks into my motor. This was not because I thought the cranks may be aof less strength than the stock cast crank, but because I've built low-cost engines that made four-figure horsepower numbers and stock parts broke. Scat has built a reputation based on quality over a period of more than 30 years, and the boss Tom Lieb isnt about to throw that away.

Unlike cheap cranks, every Scat crank goes through an inspection routine to check bearing finishes and sizes similar to that of the $2500 race cranks it makes. As a supplier for professional TOp Fuel and Trans Am among others, the company knows what it takes to make a crank live. I needed to know at what level I might expect failures. To this end I spoke to Bill Smith at Speedway Motors in Nebraska. At the time Smith had used more than 3000 of these cranks in budget/claimer race engines at power levels up to 550 horsepower and RPM to about 8,000 and had not seen one failure attributable to a Scat cast-steel crank. At the time of this writing, I've built more than 650 horsepower nitrous-injected race motors on Scat cast cranks and I'm still no closer to knowing where the line is drawn.

Take it with a grain of salt, Im no huge believer in David Vizard, and it reads to me like he may be getting a little kick back money for promoting them but for a street motor Im convinced any factory cast crank is fine... at hte point you need a forged crank you should be using an aftermarket block.

Last edited by InfernalVortex; Feb 15, 2014 at 06:53 PM.
Reply
Old Feb 16, 2014 | 07:01 AM
  #37  
86LG4Bird's Avatar
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,390
Likes: 0
From: Bright, IN
Car: '86 Bird, 96 ImpalaSS, 98 C1500XCab
Engine: LG4, LT1, L31
Transmission: 700R4, 4L60E, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.73 Tors, 4.88 spool, 3.73 Eaton
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Vizard's books are good for understanding the basics, but as you learn more from real engine builders and do more of your own stuff, and especially if you have a technical/engineering background, you realize some of the stuff he writes has no basis. He either misinterprets what some technical person has told him, or he just repeats what some marketing schmo has fed him.
I've seen too many of his magazine articles that are obviously a "contracted advertisement".
His remarks about cast versus forged material are pretty far out there! Pretty comical when you work with metallurgical issues over your career! Even if there is merit in some of those cast "advantages" he mentions, they're completely overshadowed by the questionable casting AND machining QUALITY of cheap aftermarket cranks.

For my stuff: it's either a GM cast crank or aftermarket forged.
And if I'm building something more than a reconditioned GM crank will support (~ 600 hp / 7000 rpm level), I'd be pretty choosey on what aftermarket forged crank I use. "Forged" alone does not guarantee a good crank; some of those are pretty crude when you look at the machining.

For the OP, I'd say ONLY because he's using the TPI, an aftermarket cast stroker crank may be ok. RPM is what kills them, and he won't see much of that with a stockish TPI! But then, I question sticking money into the bottom end of a motor that will remain strangled by the top end. With TPI, torque production isn't exactly lacking to start with.
Reply
Old Feb 16, 2014 | 12:51 PM
  #38  
articwhiteZ's Avatar
Supreme Member
15 Year Member
iTrader: (56)
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,776
Likes: 101
From: Spokane WA
Car: 92 Lingenfelter Z28 articwhite
Engine: Aluminum 615BBC
Transmission: Th400wbrake/curri entps9" locker
Axle/Gears: 4.11/4.30/4.56
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by 1gary
That was a LPE engine.That is a huge difference.
Yes...there is that small detail...
and the eng stayed under 6500 rpm (stopped pulling at 6200rpm)

when the rod bolt let go it was at 2200 rpm in over drive doing about 50mph
no load... just stopped like ya turnd the key off.....on the way to the track no less.
and thinking to my self..what a blast to drive..with a smile on my face....not joking!

only left a dent in the pan.. like ya shot it with a BB Gun from the inside.nexed to the oil filter. i missed it a few times a buddy pointed it out..lol
block was ok... lifters ok..pan./pump/ windage try ok

crank took a ding so did the cam..
(a buddy thinks he can still use the cam..with small clean up.as it's.billet core roller with pressed on cast gear..)
and hes been dinging me about the bowtie block....lol
that im redoing for my 91 sport truck 1500. when the 5.7 has had enof...406?

Last edited by articwhiteZ; Feb 16, 2014 at 01:04 PM.
Reply
Old Feb 16, 2014 | 01:08 PM
  #39  
1gary's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Early on I supported Vizard.He teaches at Ohio U. or did at one time.Then over time it sure seemed like he sold out to the highest bidder in terms of brands to use.David Carly on the other hand sure seems like a straight shooter and words his stuff around issues brands might have,but you do get what he is saying.

We shouldn't forget what LPE has done with TPI systems.Their R & D has produced some outstanding results.So for this O/P the possibilities are out there in the future for the taking.The thing is it is very expensive.You just never want to close the door in a build setting yourself up for a major failure because at some point you did a upgrade.My suggestion has been always plan ahead and build for more than you need.A solid bottom end is that foundation for that.
Reply
Old Feb 16, 2014 | 01:16 PM
  #40  
1gary's Avatar
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 0
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by articwhiteZ
Yes...there is that small detail...
and the eng stayed under 6500 rpm (stopped pulling at 6200rpm)

when the rod bolt let go it was at 2200 rpm in over drive doing about 50mph
no load... just stopped like ya turnd the key off.....on the way to the track no less.
and thinking to my self..what a blast to drive..with a smile on my face....not joking!

only left a dent in the pan.. like ya shot it with a BB Gun from the inside.nexed to the oil filter. i missed it a few times a buddy pointed it out..lol
block was ok... lifters ok..pan./pump/ windage try ok

crank took a ding so did the cam..
(a buddy thinks he can still use the cam..with small clean up.as it's.billet core roller with pressed on cast gear..)
and hes been dinging me about the bowtie block....lol
that im redoing for my 91 sport truck 1500. when the 5.7 has had enof...406?
Well nothing lasts forever.I wonder how many hits the LPE engine had on it before it gave up the ghost. Yes I know I'm not talking about the same thing,but my former race deal has a number we found of laps and then those engines get torn down,inspected,and freshen up.

That has served us well prevent us from running over our own parts for yrs. No major failures for a very,very,long time.

Last edited by 1gary; Feb 16, 2014 at 01:20 PM.
Reply
Old Feb 16, 2014 | 03:20 PM
  #41  
InfernalVortex's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
iTrader: (4)
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,499
Likes: 31
From: Macon, GA
Car: 1992 Camaro RS
Engine: Vortec headed 355, xe262
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt 3.70
Re: buying a 383 rotating assy. kit

Originally Posted by 1gary
Early on I supported Vizard.He teaches at Ohio U. or did at one time.Then over time it sure seemed like he sold out to the highest bidder in terms of brands to use.
Yeah I thought that was some pretty heavy-handed promotion of Scat... I'm not saying they dont make a good product... but to single them out among all the other brands their competing with as being that much better seems kind of odd. So that seals the deal that there are other examples of this as well. The book I cited that from was informative but there were several things in it I found to be inaccurate compared to real world results I've seen here and other places. Some guys swear by Vizard, and I learned a lot from reading his books but I also learned that these guys all tend to have their own opinions and are not exactly objective. At least when you read stuff here you KNOW its someone's opinion. These guys write these books as if they're fact, or at least community consensus, and often times they are not.

I've never read anything by David Carly but if I ever feel the need I will look into it. I feel like I learned more on TGO than I have from Vizard when talking purely about parts selection.
Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Scorched1984
Wheels and Tires
66
Apr 16, 2016 06:56 PM
toronto formula
Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension Parts for Sale
15
Nov 10, 2015 06:17 AM
mhatfield 14
Tech / General Engine
5
Oct 24, 2015 07:48 AM
Mickeyruder
Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension Parts for Sale
3
Sep 2, 2015 02:45 PM
gixxer92
Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension Parts for Sale
5
Sep 1, 2015 04:32 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:16 PM.