Hi guys!

Looking for new heads/cam for my 350. I've got Accel LTRs and base, SLP 1 5/8" headers, and a Flowmaster 3" catback, 24 lb/hr injectors, all of which I'd ideally keep. Need to make emissions in Denver on a dyno (ugh). Thoughts on (aluminum) heads and cam selection, what piece of equipment will limit power, and what type of power numbers are possible?

From my searching, didn't seem like there were many options for aluminum heads that would fit the bill. I found the AFR 1041's (a little pricey...), the Trick Flow Super 23 195cc's (will my headers fit the d-port exhausts?), and the Edelbrock Performer 60859s (bad flow?). Have I missed something?

Thanks!
J

 

You can always get some Skip White worked-over ProComps.

http://www.skipwhiteperformance.com/...roduct=D&Sub=A

Price is good on 'em.

 

Thanks 99olo! I checked out Skip's 190CC heads, but noticed they use a 1206 gasket. If memory serves, getting an ACCEL TPI base to fit a 1206 is a no-go. Anybody?

Also, I'm guessing those aren't emissions friendly?

 

I'm unsure about emissions on those heads, but I know they're good for the price.

As for gaskets, I have no idea, but I'm sure open for some learning.

Someone come fill us in.

 

Ya ever wonder WHY some parts are being sold sooooooo cheap??.

 

Skip explains how he gets the cheap unassembled head (From China), makes sure it's a good, solid, workable head, and machines it so it's perfect, and then sells it cheaper than other head makers and their "super cool namebrand" heads.

 

Independently buys a cargo load??.Sure,sure.

Take this to YOUR bank.When a brand gets compared to what you should have bought in the first place,that is the first place brand to buy.

I've been in the high performance business for over 40 yrs.The "so called deals" just ant.

 

Hey, I'll keep an open mind.

No one said anything about a "Cargo load".

But he backs his products, and for good reason. I've never heard of any problems about his products.

I'm not saying that it's the best heads you can get, but for near the same performance for so much less... you can draw your own lines.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...kip-white.html

http://www.dragstuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4020

They check out good. Yes, this is a so-called "deal" that's more true than not.

The naysayers are (mostly) people who haven't had experience with them. The people who have, say they're fine to run.

I'll be sure to put that "in my bank", sir.

 

Look.The only way your buying import heads in any kind of meaningful discount is by the cargo container.

Dealt with a number of skip over white heads to find way,way,too many issues.Actually trip over door stop white heads.

The education starts NOW.One hell of a big difference of a business in high performance and a end user such the likes of YOU.

There is no way a small company like white's has the R & D budget or machinery or for that matter the experience.A one bullet Barney.

While this education continues and your on the way to the bank,it takes one hell of alot more than heads to make torque or HP.Nope-no stand alone part in these "deal's".

Read and research my user.Just for you,matched parts builds are critical.No kidding.Do-overs for any build costs double.

 

You should try calming down.

People would be a lot more receptive.

Now, of course heads aren't just going to make you fast. No one said that; but he seems to have a plan, and for what he wants to pay, I'm sure these heads would be fine.

And as for the ProComp heads; they're about 400 for a bare set. Retail. I'm sure he can get them for less if he did buy some in bulk.

If you think Skip White's business is that bad, then you must've had a bad experience with them, and I'm sorry. But with the amount of good reviews for his work, and his experience in racing, I'd be inclined to believe he's not just a "small business" with shoddy worksmanship, but more of a "local business" with reach beyond his locality.

I know eary ProComps had some issues, but I also know that these "quality control" issues were worked out years ago. I don't know if you've been around any newer heads, but they're better than they were.

Not trying to get into a pissing match, just trying to help out a fellow third gen owner.

 

You could get cheaper better flowing iron heads for the price. Procomps don't flow under 500 for anything.

 

Looks like Skip switched up the heads he was working over.

"NKB" heads, apparently "New kid on the block" is what it stands for.

Flows better everywhere.

And are better than the Dart SHPs.

http://www.skipwhiteperformance.com/...tem=NKB200274S

 

His numbers look low for what I have seen around for the dart heads.

They are still really weak for a 200CC heads but at least they are better than projunk. Stock vortec heads with a 170cc intake out flowed procomp below 500 and so do 170cc 1.94 valve world products heads. For a 350 with any streetable cam just stay away.

 

"We guarantee the flow numbers to be accurate, as well as the horse power numbers produced by them. Whats most important about the flowchart above is the fact that all three of these heads were tested by the same person, on the same machine, (Superflo bench 1020) same testing method, on the same day. Regardless if the numbers are absolutely correct by other standards, they show the true difference between each other, and that s what counts."

I trust his numbers. Though the exhaust flow isn't as good.

Read and draw your own conclusions, Denver-J.

 

How in god's name can you predict hp numbers??.No SCR's/DCR's,quench,cam,exhaust,etc,etc.Well you just can't.

What is more important is air/fuel dynamics for real life end results.Port shape and cross sectional is tons more important.The way to get closer to what is happening while a engine is operating is not with bulk air bench testing,but with a wet test that takes into account the wt of the fuel.

Now this for this OP-best bang for his buck is a set of new Vortec performance heads that have a ideal intake cc of 180.Cut the valve bosses to accept a larger valve spring in case he ever want to up-date to a bigger lift cam.These heads where produced just for the 350/355 end user.

 

Predict (close) HP numbers with math, my good sir. Better flow numbers with a big cam means more power.

They're currently testing these heads, and they are clearly superior heads to the ProComps.

That means, they'll make more power than the ProComps.

Depending on if he wants stock of aftermarket parts, cast iron or aluminum, etc. He'll make his choice from this. I'm sure this isn't his only resource for an educated decision.

Keep us posted on your build, bud.

 

I've posted this before because it is the way it works:

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._compatibility

 

I am confused, have you ever bought or tested any of these parts? Do you work for skip? Do you just randomly believe everything he prints on an ebay ad?

 

Procomp heads are absolute trash. They're a poor product that barely strives to accomplish mediocre results.. The person who "designed" these heads had NO AUTOMOTIVE EXPERIENCE AT ALL. Don't believe me? Go look at a decent head and a Procomp and you'll see all the problems associated with it. Cut them in half and it is extremely obvious. Weak, porous castings, cracking, uneven decks, weak seats punching through the heads, junk hardware, junk valves, bad ports with bad port alignment, misaligned valves, and the list goes on FOREVER.

Please do not make recommendations on this forum like that, because newbies and others fall for that "bang for buck" trap that doesn't exist and buy a complete POS while expecting to have a powerhouse on the cheap... And then they dump a bunch into fixing them just to have as much money tied into them as a nice aftermarket set. This is all while having a slow turd because Procomps can't even move out of their own way based on the absolute horrid csa and velocity profiles alone. Not everyone needs a set of Competition port AFRs, but being too cheap to do things correctly should not be encouraged in any hobby.

Denver, a set of Dart heads may do the trick. Brodix and AFR are good. Trick flow stuff for SBC isn't that great and should be left to Ford applications where they shine, IMO.

 

Must be why he moved away from ProComp heads and onto something else.

And, Midias, do you not listen to any product manufacturer about their products?

Do you assume they're all trash, or are you just biased about this man for some reason?

Also, no one said anything about EBay.

 

But in three posts it certainly does sound like you rep for Skip White and yes he does mainly sell on Ebay.I am kind of coming down on you abit.But you see the "Skip White heads" where never "his" castings and the ones he tried to sell and use are the bottom of the barrel junk.I'll go back to what I said before.The economics of cost doesn't change.If you buy low-you get what you pay for.

Add this to the point I am trying to make.Skip White is not even a spec on the map of high performance market.Deductive logic says the only way he can keep up with demand is to job out the work never seeing the end result.I seriously doubt a production line he owns and the costs associated with that kind of machinery.The overhead would kill his margin.And R & D budgets don't aren't happening.

 

I rarely listen to the manufacturer. As an engineer that has worked in the consumer industry for a while I have learned to verify.

I don't assume everything is trash but I do know that when something seems too good to be true it often is.

The wonderful thing about the internet is you can get more information from people who have actually bought the products. I join various message boards and take to people who have bought the items I own. I look for pictures, videos and test data from people who do NOT have any skin in the game.

I KNOW procomps are trash for a lot more reasons than their flow numbers so I want to VERIFY that someone who has sold them while saying they were great is not blowing smoke up my ****.

Skip sells the bulk of his stuff on ebay. The stuff on his site are no different from his ebay listings. He uses ctrl C and ctrl V.

As for the original post I would not use a 200cc or 210cc head on a 350 in general. He can get away with a much smaller intake port that flows better and gives better HP and TQ curves.

Your trying to sell items you don't own based off info from a person who is not know to be reputable and you are wondering why people think you work for him. That is like me trying to recommend a tampon that a drag queen told me was good.

 

Thank you for being civil; please tell me, what tests you've done to the ProComps to prove they are unfit for operation, or link me to the tests done.

Must be a reason he stopped doing them, aside from the "something better" came along excuse, maybe you could fill me in.

 

In hopes of getting the OP back into this discussion...

Everyone seems to be missing one VITAL point:

Having to live with that personally, it is not lost on me.

Now, back to the original question:

With either choice, you may have to port-match your headers (and that includes the Skip White Specials, too). This may require having a bead welded around the tubes on the outside of the flange, and you may have to have a new gasket mating surface created after. 1-3/4" primary headers would probably cover the ports of either head.

The "emissions-friendly" part is the exhaust cross-over passage for the EGR. The way to get around that is the same way the '86-1/2 to '91 Corvette TPI did - with an external exhaust source to the EGR valve.

Having said all that, I don't know of anyone who was unhappy with AFR heads:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/af...make/chevrolet
That's the price for a pair, not a single head. You will need non-self-aligning rockers, though.

Cam selection - nobody addressed that. Don't want to get too radical. This would be a big step up from the factory cam:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lu...make/chevrolet
Should still sniff clean.

 

Sorry I got off topic, bud.

Looks like Five7kid's gotcha covered in the emissions department- I'm not very savvy on that.

 

I can have a custom ground camshaft that will clear emissions if that's what you need. Ultimately, I don't care who you go through, just don't settle for a shelf cam since you're paying for it either way. You can do better, especially given the cylinder heads being discussed here.

 

A custom cam is always good, no matter what the circumstance.

 

Don't care what anyone says.Now that is FUNNY.

 

Yes, he has quite the way with words. I just really wish he'd tell me what Mr. White did to be so unreputable. Seems like every time someone sees that name on this site, red flags go up.

 

Yep-I read that Co is one of those tough states.

 

Sorry work took a turn yesterday I will try to get you a nice long post today.

My biggest problem with his rep is the fact that he sells many cheap chineeseium products and often blames the buyer for the manufacturing issues. Which would be bad enough but he constantly talks up his junk so I have a hard time believing anything he says. His cam choices are ancient grinds that generally don't do well for a 350s streetability all because his heads require over 500 lift to perform as well as a 170cc stock vortec head.

He does not really have a good offering for a nice 350 or 355 but at least his prices are low.

I personally know a few people that fell into the pro comp trap and they had all sorts of valve issues with his heads. Both wear and alignment. After we swapped to other heads even Regular WP S/R heads we found much better engine performance with a VERY small sacrifice in top end power over 5500 rpm.

The NBK heads might be ok heads but 200cc is a bit large for a 350 <= 400hp. You can make the power but low end will suffer. There are a lot of 170cc heads that make 400hp and have better HP and TQ cure areas.

What I am getting at is there are first hand accounts all over the web of his stuff having issues and pro comps having issues along with bad customer service. As a result I am not willing to spend $ on his new heads until people who don't have skin in the game buy them and create unbiased reviews.

 

X2

 

Midias, runner size is a byproduct of the overall cylinder head design. It is an indicator, but not an absolute surefire means of measurement. It's vague at best. I run 206cc heads on my 355 and it's a solid setup. CSA/cross section is arguably more important but they all work together to form the geometry of the cylinder head.

 

1gary, do you have any pics of the skip white heads you've dealt with showing the issues?
Or can you share with us what issues you have seen?

 

Johnny.What do you want to know??. Pictures-no. Casting issues??. Absolutely. We just returned them to the customer showing them what we found and explained why we couldn't use them. I don't know what they did with them after that.I heard a rumor(yes just a rumor) Skip White wouldn't take them back and we never did any work on them so they where as shipped. I do know the customers moved onto a different brand name because we built long blocks for them. The customer supplied the parts.

 

I was just wondering what problems there were with the heads.

 

Johnny-from off location rocker studs to sunken valve seats to cracks to porous castings.........all missed QC by both supplier and Skip White.One head didn't even have the head bolt holes all drilled.These things where/are undeniably obvious.

 

Wow
those are some issues!

 

Guys.I want to add that it seems I'm always negative about new products being introduced into the market place.The truth is when I hear of a new product I'm excited to see it and find what It is all about.Not to find fault about it,but a new a opportunity.Yrs ago when AFR first came out I thought wow this going to be hot and I kind of knew the behind the back story of what they where geared for in R & D.As it worked out my guess was right.With RHS,for yrs they have established a very good rep and been very reliable.I've tracked their R & D program and it is a industry leader.EQ,The jury is still out on them and I want to see more.

All of this leads to a the same bottom line,you do get what you pay for as like anything else.

 

Seems I recall AFR having sone serious issues with their L98 heads as well.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...t-fitting.html

 

I do remember that thread.I also posted he should have called LPE,but never did.Best case,one gets away from you from time to time,but with AFR and their long term rep,it is a safe bet those are not as often or as serious as the low dollar bottom of the barrel parts.And if you noticed in his last post,with AFR's parts they did workout.

 

Yes the girdles fit, but he had to team the dowel holes, and was pretty much told "oh well" by afr.

But you're right, this appears to be an isolated incident. Though their lack of support was not very encouraging.

 

It is always going to be the haunting question by these manufactures"Is it us or the end user not knowing what they are doing?". In many cases the RA's end up being the end user's fault.

 

True but most cheap heads have incredibly shitty cross sections and use large runners to get any kind of flow.

Never said 200 was too big for all 350s just not required on most.

 

200's without the supporting parts/combo cast is like a intake that is too small or the wrong one.

 

Just didn't want anyone to assume "sizes" on heads. I knew what you were getting at, though.

 

190cc head with a 1206 gasket thats because they are crap dont waste your money on cheap junk.
Save up get better made. Always time to do it over you know?

 

Yeah, I'm sure you can get a better head now. I'm really curious about his new NKB heads, but since they're new, no one has reviews. I can only assume they're better, but since they're not over a thousand dollars, they must be junk.