Hey guys, I finally took the 84 in to get a dyno (5.7- 350 - TDL Suffix). To say the least ive been quite discouraged today.

The numbers...




So anyways I have a limited mechanical knowledge but I know I want more power, so I decided to take it to a local performance shop, get the dyno, and ask the tech about what options I had.

Basically, he tried to tell me he could do a LS swap with all the goodies making 400+ for 6k, or a 383 stroker making 450+ with all the goodies for 8k.


The problem is, I was hoping (dont we all...) to spend more like 2-3 k and make 300+.

I'm not trying to drag this thing, I mostly want a little street monster with some speed light to light, smoke some civics and have a few extra smiles per day.

I planned on doing the interior myself (experience) body is already good to go.

With all that being said, I dont know if he was just trying to up sell me big time or...

Is there not a way to get this thing to 300+ with bolt ons or at least a smaller price tag?

As of now:

Stock 1890 (Van) 5.7 350 SBC (Rated 155 HP)
Edlebrock Performer Intake
Edlebrock 4 Barrel Carb
Posi Rear (Not sure about gears)



Thats about it... I was hoping some aluminum heads, some headers and maybe cam would get me past 300 for around 2k. Am I living in a fantasy land?


Thanks for any input,

Tek

 

i thought torque and horsepower always crossed at 5252? seems like they didnt even push the motor that hard? then again i could be totaly reading that wrong?

 

You better be making a hell of a lot more power than that for 8K, LOL. Someone's got greedy pockets.

 

Buddy, you need to upgrade

Those 1890 engines were just no good

 

Crank or RWHP ?

I would say those numbers look pretty good for a 20 year old engine that wasn't exactly a performer when new

Problem is before you go doubling the Hp of your engine with bolt-ons
you need to determine what it's actually cond is .
While it may be happy at 150Hp , 300 may not be so kind to worn out ,20 YO parts
and a rod through the block has habit of blowing any budget" considerations

 

Thanks for the response man,

When I bought it i was told it was rebuilt 30k ago, who knows if thats true or not. Sorry for the novel, I was just feeling on over my head (which I probably am lol) Regarding the actual condition, I have no idea I've never been inside of it.

As far as options, I bought this car to have some fun in not daily drive. With that being said, its got a little get up and go right now, but I could safely say that if it was doubled I would be content, not ecstatic.

I guess driving my buddies z06 ruined me lol, I guess some guys just get to have all the fun

I'm not sure what direction to head, I really love this car and the third gen community both online and in real life, but I cant justify putting more than a few thousand into this specific car.

 

Depending on how much wrenching you wanted to do, you could either:

buy a new 350 (such as this: http://www.jegs.com/p/Chevrolet-Perf...13788/10002/-1) and supplement it with whatever parts on your current engine that will work, such as the intake. Sell what's left of your current engine and invest in some roller rockers, possibly a cam swap, and make your 300 hp.

Or- rebuild your current engine, from the bottom up, go to a swap meet and get some better heads for cheap, and some other bolt ons (as $$ allows).

Either way you make your 300 hp, all for about 2k

 

Why are you disappointed?

What did you expect a 150HP engine to make on the dyno?

 

I paid $2100 for 335-350 RWHP, but that's doing all the work yourself and already having all the tools.

 

That right there is a big deal. Without knowing what pistons are in the block it's hard to determine what the compression ratio is for the motor and what size the combustion chambers you have already on the motor. Being rebuilt you don't know if it's a measly little 8:1 compression, 76cc combustion chambered smog motor or if the installed some better flat top pistons that can get you to a respectable compression ratio with smaller size combustion chamber heads.

That all defines what size cam you can install without hurting performance.

You can get a long block from a shop that already produces the power you want and just add your intake, carb, and accessories for close to 3K

As an example. see here http://paceperformance.com/i-8396341...rear-seal.html

Also, you probably haven't upgraded the exhaust either which would hinder any performance upgrades you do currently to that motor. It won't wake up the motor you currently have very much but it will benefit any modifications or any motor you decide to put in later on.

 

I do find this option intriguing, I consider myself capable of most novice to intermediate mechanical endeavors, and obviously bolt ons, I do have friends that have mechanical knowledge that could help me with things like a swap.



I guess should have specified, I didn't get the suffix until about 45 mins before I went in to dyno, I was hoping for more than a 1980 van 350. Also I could honestly give a crap less about numbers, its all about how it feels to me. I was just crushed to find out this thing is gonna be basically 5 thousand dollars at a minimum if I really want to get moving. It's no bodies fault but my own, and I did do research before hand, but I was under the impression that I was gonna be able to buy a couple thousand in bolt ons and have some fun. Not get into 5-10 thousand dollars and hundreds of hours of engine rebuilding.

That's awesome man.

Something tells me to basically assume the worse at this point as far as power potential. BTW, I forgot to mention it does have a full 3" cat back exhaust and super 44 mufflers.


I got another quote from a shity little mechanics shop in town, I did notice he had some muscle cars in the shop. He tells me 3 k will get me:

New torqe converter
Hooker long headers
Aluminum heads
Some exhaust customization (chop catalytic converter)
Oil change
Intake and vavle gasket replacements (leaking anyways)
some new NGK plugs and wires


According to him, even after seeing my dyno, this will get me "right at 300".

Seemed shady, labor was listed as 50% of the cost too.

 

You can get moving a LOT cheaper than $5000.

What is you level of skill? Willing to rebuild an engine your self?

For now pop the heads off and see how the inside of the motor looks. You may be able to bump the compression to 9.5 - 10:1 with just new heads. Then just add mild cam like the XE268 and you should be moving fairly quickly for $1000 to $1500

There are good to read if you are scared.

 

Hey man, thanks! I literally just came in here to post this lol. It occurred to me that I could just build one myself maybe?

As to not decommission the car, I was thinking about seeing if I can find a 350 motor on craigslist or something for a few hundred bucks, hopefully one that had a better starting HP rating. buy a rebuild kit, some new heads and cam, headers and bolt on my intake and carb. Then swap the rebuilt and sell my 350 that's in it now.

I consider myself to be fairly capable of something like this, I was certified mechanic years ago in the Army. Plus I have resources like book, youtube, this forum and friends if I ran into problems.

On a 1 to 10 scale, how difficult do you rate an operation like this? What sort of power gains could I expect? How many hours of work?

Also, anybody know of sample 350 builds out there that went well or would fit my application?

 

I don't know what your goals are but I just helped a friend build a nice 330hp 350 for about $1500. We found a good roller block on craigslist for $250. You could still see the cross hatch. We did some math and found out we could get a 9.7:1 static compression with 67CC heads.

Rebuilt the motor with new bearings, rings, gaskets and plugs

So we got a nice set of world products S/R heads for about $650 very good deal.

Used the XR264HR cam and got a nice set of free delphi lifters from a friend. Then we reused his old airgap, carb and HEI.

My best advice is to look around a lot and don't rush. If you can find a 1996-2000 vortec motor you will be WAY ahead of the game. Then you can change the springs on the vortec heads and add a nice mild cam.

Read the books I am sure that someone of your skills will realize it is quite easy to rebuild a SBC.

 

What differentiates the late 90's sbc to modern lt1 and ls1? I was under the impression the 90's had already all gone fuel injected...

Are the equally easy to work on?

 

Yea they are all about the same and you can carburate any of them.

The LS blocks have a better head design and make more power but cost more. If I was going LS I would keep the EFI.

 

I have read a few of those books awhile and they are good starting points. I've also read one by John Lingenfelter, I just can't remember the title. They are good starting points. But you still need the proper tools to be able to properly assemble a motor

That's a loaded question

LT1 blocks (Gen II) and Gen I blocks are a lot alike. The blocks have the same dimensions, bore, stroke, height, length. The casting for the water pumps are different as the LT1 is designed for reverse coolant flow (heads to block to radiator). They can use the same rods, pistons, oil pump and cams. There are some minor differences over the years for LT1 motors but that is the majority of things.

LS1 block are a lot different and there are some differences with assembling them especially with the oil pan and the front and rear covers.

 

If you look at the graph, the lines for torque and hp look like they ARE going to meet at 5252...as the power falls down

 

A LS1 swap for $6k is a smoking deal, regardless of how much power it makes

 

The problem is the engine dude and your are lucky you're only losing about 30-20 HP through the driveshaft and differential. If you aren't bothered by using truck engines go look for a 1996+ Chevy or GMC 5.7L they came with 255 HP.

 

I wouldnt expect much from a used "few hundred dollar" engine. They're mostly exactly the same as what you've got. Most any factory head is garbage with a few rare exceptions and even the good factory heads (all... maybe three of them) aren't really all that great. The 255hp 350 listed earlier in the thread is the same as Vortec 350, a 96-98 350 from a truck, and that would be one of the ONLY options worth considering on the used market that could get you where you want to go. Otherwise you can find a real L98 and plan on swapping the cam and heads to get to the power level you want.

Your limiting factors are heads, flat tappet cam, and compression ratios. Most used blocks are going to have all three of those issues. Most 87 and newer 350s are roller cam and had decent compression, but not all have roller cams, and not all had decent heads. You have to be very specific. These are engines designed in 1955 and they are NOT good at making power by modern standards unless you heavily optimize the top end of the engine with the best we have to offer. That means aftermarket aluminum heads, nice aggressive roller cams, and much higher compression ratios, and lastly a decent fueling system/intake. Those are all your challenges.

I encourage this a lot but everyone likes to pooh pooh it.... a cheap, effective swap is an LT1. It comes with a good intake, roller cam(it's small and crappy, but you can run a very large one in its place and get 400hp on stock heads), and very high compression. The ignition systems on these are wonky and worth worrying about (research "Optispark") but are not deal breakers and can be fixed with more money. It will bolt up to your transmission and your engine mounts and even your headers, but you will need to get all the accessories and change one of the power steering lines. For 400hp or less, the LT1 is THE bang for the buck leader. $1500 and you're there.

The Vortec 350 (the 255hp one) has cylinder heads based on the LT1, but isnt quite as high compression. It's still high, though. The only real problem with a Vortec 350 is you'll need a new intake. It's still capable of ~400hp, but there are issues that need to be addressed in regards to how much valve lift the heads can handle in stock form. They are solvable issues, but they will need to be addressed for any kind of aftermarket cam. A vortec 350 is basically a cam swap away from being 350-375hp if you can give it enough air and fuel to do it.

 

I realize this is a third gen forum, and I love third gens, but based on what I'm hearing, my budget and experience levels, it is occurring to my the better option for my current situation may be to cut my losses, sell my 84 and buy a 4th gen with an lt1. once acquired, bolt on aftermarket heads and cam with exhaust back headers...and were racing.

Does this sound like a more reasonable/cheap path to 400+ whp?

 

If you're gonna switch platforms altogether screw an LT1 car, go straight for an LS1 fourth gen. The LT1's advantage is that it's cheap and unloved and bolts right in. It's superior to an L98 in almost every way but inferior to an LS1 in every way. If you're gonna go to another car, get a 98-02 car and call it a day.

 

will future performance upgrades on an ls1 have the same cost and difficulty implications as gen 1 or lt1?

I see a few 2000 ss camaros for around 9k in my area. 100k miles. big price jump from a 5k lt1 camaro, dollar for dollar i guess getting an lt1 to ls1 stats is worth the 4 k extra from scratch.

Thanks for your help/opinion btw

 

There's nothing cheap about racing. Making power is the easy part. Doing it safely is where things get expensive.

Want a car that's cheap to go fast in? Go buy a notchback Foxbody and put a 351W/408 stroker in it.. or better yet; spend 5-6K and buy one complete that already runs 10-11 second 1/4 times.

 

still not decided at all btw, part of my just wants to say **** it, grab a set of summit aluminum heads, cam and some headers and just drive that sucker around on the weekends...

I guess maybe this engine wont like that though...

 

You dont know what pistons you have and how far in the hole they are or what they're made of. You can slap $2k worth of metal on it but if it doesnt work with your pistons it will be largely a waste. An LT1 is cheaper than aluminum heads worth getting... Just sayin'.

I would heavily suggest you NOT dump ANY money whatsoever into that 350. It likely has crappy cast deep dish low compression pistons in it that will forever cripple that engine's power potential. Those arent worth replacing unless you do a full rebuild, and full rebuild is a waste of your time unless it's a roller block.

Even if you get a used LT1 and it's got health problems, a straight up factory rebuild of one of those (as long as you dont get cheapo claimer cast pistons) will be plenty. They had all decent hardware from the factory.

 

hey man, i know what your saying...I'm new to the scene but I know enough to know that most guys that have been in the game for awhile dont like guys coming in here expecting 800 hp for 100 bucks and trying to cut every corner possible. I don't wanna be that guy.

I'm just trying to find the best application to get me a few hundred horsepower, enough to have some fun and maybe scare my gf a little on the way to the movies. We have some daily drivers 12 Toyota and 09 Mini, and I want to have some fun.

I guess i knew it wouldnt be cheap, was probably always gonna be more than I thought, but ****, I didnt think id have to go 5-10k deep ona 2k car or do full swaps and **** to get the tires spinning.

This has me re thinking the entire project.

I appreciate you guys at least keeping it real, I dont need a 120hp gas hog, not worth having a fun car if it isnt fun lol.

My unwarrented expectation was to get the car, clean it up, and do a couple grand in bolt ons and have a pretty cool little car, I thought the gen 1 engines were all super easy, cheap and bolt on friendly. Now I know its quite the opposit, especially if you dont start with an highly rated engine to begin with.

 

This is pretty much the last/only option i see as a possibility aside from scratching the whole project. If I do find a used one, will it need a full rebuild?

 

Well over here where i live theres a guy who buys, trades, parts out, and sales 3rd gens for really good prices. Last time i checked (about 2weeks ago) he had a 305tpi and a 350 tpi one was $700 don't remember which one out the price for the other but he really is a good guy. 3 months ago he got me a set of original z28 rims in near perfect condition for only $150. Just search for Camaro parts in Houston, Texas area on craigslist this is his number just in case you don't find him 832-517-0182

 

it really just depends on what you're starting with. I did a complete swap on my car, but it was a backwards swap to carbureted. Took a LOT of money for the whole package, but it's a solid build now. Just depends how you want to throw down more than anything, ideally.

 

Okay, part of the "problem" is the Dyno Dynamics dyno. They are known to read low. Probably the lowest reading dyno out there. Likewise a DynoJet is usually the highest reading dyno. So if you want to feel better find someone with a DynoJet.

 

shame....I sold my small block a few months back for like $3500 complete and it put 370 to the wheels

 

I'm kinda of in the same boat, I have an unknown 350, feels fast to me but it also only weighs 2900lbs and with 3.73 gears I'm sure that's all it feel. Taking her to the dyno soon to see what she puts down and that will somewhat give me a goal of where I want to be. Was thinking about getting an lsx long block for 3,000 new, putting the heads and cam I want, slap an intake, vortech supercharger and calling it a day, that should set me back about 6-7k, but to me it's worth it. I only got the car for 1,500 but it's something I really wanted and it's not going anywhere! Good thing the wife agrees lol. But on top of that 6-7k, there's wheels and tires, about 2k, suspensions, another 2k or so, transmission and rear end..I could go on all day! But I bought this car knowing it and am fully aware of the amount of money one can spend on it. It's not our only vehicle so if it sits it sits. But a bare block and build it the way you want it, or buy something ready to go, like a 2 or 3k jegs engine.

 

Bummer

 

Jmo pull the heads off and see what you have. I would bet deep dish pistons. I would also bet on a tiny cam like the peanut cam considering the peak hp is at a super low rpm. If you were to keep this engine i would do:
-long tube headers 1 5/8 primaries
-ditch the emissions gear
-some kind of cam.
-vortec heads plausibly with some milling and an rpm intake or something like that. Will increase flow and bump compression. Check your head casting numbers if they are 72 or 76cc you have some improvement to be made there.

Do you have any idea of afrs or timing? All that can throw a big wrench in things.

Ed:the track will be the truest metric of your power. The mph is probably a more reliable indicator than a dyno overall

 

64cc heads will leave the compression too low for a cam worth having. Milling some vortec heads will ruin them for any 350 application. Although there's 305 suckers all over the place that might want them if he wanted to unload them in milled condition...

 

89 L98
K&N drop ins
SMOG delete and remove pulley
short headers
No cat
Flowmaster exhaust
Custom chip burned
3.70 gears.

I'm impressed with what it pushes for an old car.

 

If 300 will barely leave you content why bother?

LS1 Camaro or do the swap. Those motors rarely break, can take a beating dont leak and respond big time to simple mods. If you like the Gen 1 a 383 top to bottom isnt bad installed for 8k. Spent more than that in parts for mine.

Head and cam swaps rarely get us the results that we hope for usually comes in the form of a larger motor altogether. Sell her off save and get a clean LSx car Id say youll be happier in the long run.

I would not spend any money on a used motor I dont believe anyone. As Vortex said most "strokers" out there ARENT, most are lying and some think a bored 350 is a stroker. If they were so good they wouldnt be selling them. Just got a call from a bud who was raving about a 502 BBC he scored off craigslist, turns out its a low compression 496 truck motor with a nice intake....and the #s ground off it. $3500 poorer and pissed.

 

Pretty broad and bold statements. I mean dropping 12cc combustion chamber volume on an 8:1 350 is an "unusable" comp ratio as well as dropping .01-.02 of hg thickness? That is about 9:1. At 58c that is over 9.5:1. On iron heads in a pump gas engine.

Btw check out the goodwrench quest. It is probably similar to what you are starting with.

 

Since you are already carburated...

Do a LS truck engine. 4.8/5.3/6.0.... The wiring aspects are eazy since you ditched EFI... The EFI and wiring is the hardest part of a modern engine swap. 5.3 truck engines are worth their weight in scrap and usually come with a 30 or 90 day warranty..