transaero

iTrader: (6)

This has been a problem for a while. I originally thought it was my battery not fully charged, so I tried a jump start, but nothing. It doesn't even crank over, all lights work though.

Figured it might have been the Neutral safety switch, read somewhere to try moving the shifter while trying to start it, but that didn't work. Fuses were all good.

It isn't not vats, as it is an '87 GTA. SO I'm not really sure what else to look for. If anyone has an idea of what it might be, please let me know.

jrhaus76

Relay under the hood, by the battery. Mine was doing the same thing. Turn the key on, everything works. Click to start and nothing. Deadness. It would work once and a while. Jumpered the relay, no issues since.

Need a pic? I can go out and take one.

jrhaus76

Ok I lied it's not the one by the battery. I didn't do it, the guy at the shop did. I don't know where it is located. This is the relay that was removed tho. Lol

transaero

iTrader: (6)

Well that helps somewhat, basically describes what happens.

there is already a fuse connected to the battery, (pretty sure it's not blown) if I remove it, will that be the same thing?

Do you mind showing me some pictures of how/where he did it? It looks like a fuse block...

jrhaus76

I'll text him tomorrow and find out where it came from.

You can also just hook up a push button start. Wire on each terminal of the starter to a button. You'll still need to turn key on but button will activate starter.

transaero

iTrader: (6)

I'd rather not put a push start in. Too modern. I like the classic "turn key to start".

Thanks though, I really appreciate your help so far.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

It is a temporary measure so you can determine what your problem is

All you have at the moment is " it won't start"!

You have not proved
1.the starter is good ,
2.that the starter connections are good and the starter is getting full battery power
3. that the starter circuit from the key is actually working

Each has different tests and hot wiring the starter through a push button is the 1st test

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Does little if the switch is kaput.

You need to unplug the switch and jumper the NSS terminals to completely bypass it
so as to prove operation or not

transaero

iTrader: (6)

Well I know the starter is good because I just replaced and have only started it a few times. I will double check the wiring when it warms up because right now it is around 10 degrees.

The battery is fully charged, it is practically brand new.

I'm guessing either some of the wiring from the starter is loose/bad or the circuit is messed up.

transaero

iTrader: (6)

Did you ever get any pics from him?

jrhaus76

shoot no. I'll text him now.

jrhaus76

Just sent him a trxt

jrhaus76

Ok... This was his reply:

"That is the vats starter interrupt relay and it is behind the driver kick panel. Has a large green and large yellow wire coming out of it. Cut it out and connect the large green and yellow together."

Good luck.

WhiskeyChick

iTrader: (4)

I am in your boat same car too lol.
Mine did a no start for a while because the ignition cylinder wasn't allowing the key to fully turn, which wouldn't engage the starter. All lights etc came on but no crank nothing, and every once in a while it would work.

Mine is now a no start randomly again, and I bypassed the NSS, starter is fine, new battery, if I figure something out ill let you know.

and jraus, the op won't have vats so that relay won't be his issue

transaero

iTrader: (6)

I'll take a look and see if anything is similar to what you said, but yeah, I don't have vats, so it probably won't do anything.

Thanks though.

transaero

iTrader: (6)

So I went and did some troubleshooting today.

- Battery was dead so I charged it.
- There was no green/yellow wire as suspected since I don't have vats.
- I cleaned the battery and engine grounds.
- Din't get to checking starter as it was getting dark. I'll check the wiring tomorrow or Saturday.

However, I did notice one thing. When I turn the key to accessory (where the int. lights come one, fuel pump cranks, etc), there is a click that comes from the upper firewall. It will make this noise every time I turn it off and then to accessory again. The noise is coming from a small silver/gray cylinder, with a black plastic piece on top of it, located just under the driver's side windshield wiper.I don't know what it's called, but I will take a look at it tomorrow and take some pics of it after my class.


Thanks for your help so far guys.

NINÅ

John62591

Some general info for your car not starting..

Well there can be an a few things that can prevent your car from starting so you will have to diagnose some things.

You need adequate fuel, air, and spark, while also being delivered at the right time.

Electrically - If it cranks slowly or not at all then check your wiring and make sure your battery terminals are tight and clean and connectors are plugged in all the way. You may have a bad battery, a bad coil, spark plugs, spark plug wires (possibly), fuel pump, bad relays, solenoids, fuses. Security Systems may disable the fuel injectors also if you use the wrong key. The Mass Airflow sensor (MAF) could be bad too. Bad Coolant temperature sensor.

If you have an Ohm meter and a fuel pressure tester, that may help diagnosing a little.

Fuel - You may have inadequate fuel pressure, or simply not enough fuel in the tank, check and see if your firebird takes premium, regular, plus also. Your fuel pump strainer may be clogged, or you have a bad hose inside the fuel tank next to the fuel pump (which leaks fuel back into the tank, causing a lack of fuel pressure.) incorrectly installed fuel filter (backwards), Fuel Pump sending unit.

Air - You may have a vacuum leak, with the 6cyl there are plenty of vacuum hoses to look through, but the main ones include the ones near the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve) and your PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve) may be clogged or unclamped/defective. Although besides these you may also have a lack of compression in the cylinders, can be tested using a compression tester and looking at your recommended pressure in each cylinder.

I don't believe I mentioned everything, but if you give Third Gen more info, we can narrow down the possibilities. Does it crank?

I don't remember when GM started using the VATS security system, but just an idea, and there may be a few other things I did not mention..

Post back if you find a solution.. Good Luck!

transaero

iTrader: (6)

I know for sure it is not a security system, vats was introduced until '88, mine is an '87. My dad has a voltmeter, but he doesn't know how to use it and neither do I, but I will dig it out and figure out how to. I have no clue if we have a fuel pressure tester.

I know it is getting fuel, I can hear the pump crank and there is gas in the tank. That

Before the ''snowstorm'' that just happened over hear, I went out and checked out the starter, I hit it with a hammer and heard the solenoid pop, but it still didn't start, and there was still no crank. The wiring seemed all good, nice and tight. However I did notice there was an extra wire hanging down, it had some sort of plastic connector on, but there was no connection I could find for it. I also noticed up front t=near the pass. side headlight, there were 2 wires w/connectors hanging loosely, but I don't know where they go.


I noticed (according to this diagram) that there are three wires going to the larger terminal. I only have 2 (orange) going to it, and that is what was there when I re-installed it. But it started before, so that might have nothing to do to it.

Later today I will try to get some pictures of the starter wiring and the extra connections i was talking about. And i will also figure out how to use this voltmeter (if I can find it).

John62591

If you can have someone crank it while you hammer on it, that usually works better.. The diagram I have shows that a Black wire goes from the battery to two fusible links (A, B) then two red wires split off from the fusible links which go to power distibution, except that fusible link B goes to the ignition switch, after the ignition switch the wire turns yellow, which goes to your transmission shift selector, then a purple wire that should be going to the starter...

So Battery (black Power/Positive wire) --> two fusible links (both Red) --> ignition switch --> yellow wire (to Gear Selector), then purple wire to starter... There should also be a Positive cable going to the starter.. Hope this helps..

Good Luck!

mbolte

iTrader: (3)

Not to thread jack but this thread came up in my search and I'm having similar issues.

Car is a 87 with t56 swap, I ziptied the shifter cable in Park position. The ignition switch has been replaced before and I've had issues with it in the pass not cranking when in the start position. It did it again today but its gotten far worse and I don't want to be stranded somewhere. Key over and everything lights up radio works, turn to start and nothing. I had to turn it multiple times before it finally cranked. I'm thinking this is a ignition switch problem? Does anyone have any suggestions?

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

do you have tilt, and if so, is it loose? you can also check the switch to make sure it is tight on the column, and is adjusted toward the steering wheel (if these can be slid like some other cars i have had) if you locate the switch, and find something you can fit in where the rod goes, you can work the switch by hand with the key turned to run (to unlock the wheel) if it leaves you stuck somewhere to get it started and back home again

mbolte

iTrader: (3)

I dropped the column and loosened up the switch, moved it, and turned the key and it worked fine. I guess it was just out of alignment.

John62591

hmmm that's good to point out. Hope that was the problem.

transaero

iTrader: (6)

Well, I think I've figured out the problem. I haven't been able to work on my car caused it has snowed several times the last few weeks, but I took advantage of the dry-ish weather today.

I checked the following:
- battery- good
- fuses- good
- power- good
- fuel- check
- wiring- all good
- NSS intact and hooked up securely

Next thing I did was take a hammer to the starter. After giving it a few good (light) whacks, I tried to start it and it cranked for about a half second. Tried it again and nothing. Hammered a few more times and the same thing. So I think the starter is either misaligned or the solenoid is not strong enough to push the gear out.

I've heard that Chevy starters usually need to be shimmed to the engine. However, the original starter was not shimmed so I figured I didn't need any. Do I need some shims?

John62591

It depends on the starter, but if you add a shim, it usually comes with the new starter, it wouldn't hurt to try it. It'll make a loud screeching noise if it's not adjusted/shimmed properly.

I've never heard that about chevys, but I wouldn't know. I've never really had a hard time with starters.

Depending on the noise usually can give a hint to remove or add shims too, but I can't remember exactly... or you have a defective starter..

transaero

iTrader: (6)

Well, I got her to start yesterday. I took out and cleaned the starter, cleaned the wire and checked them all, charged the battery, and fiddled with the ignition switch. The last thing I did was have my brother crank it while I hammered on the starter. After a few hits she started right up!

I think that the weird weather (snow/ coldness) might've locked up the starter somehow. Whatever the reason, thanks for all you help guys!

John62591

Well cars should still start no matter the weather, but if you have any more issues I would budget for another starter in the future.

Glad our info on here helped, post back if you have any more issues.

transaero

iTrader: (6)

If/when this starter goes out, I will be getting an lt1 starter or a high performance starter, plus a heat shield or heat wrap.

Mzarate18215

Hey, with my trams am gta 87 a lot of the times the car just cranks like as if it had no gas even though it does. After trying to turn it on for s few more times it will finally start. My gta has a digital display in the inside so I'm not sure if it's different than yours.

WhiskeyChick

iTrader: (4)

Got it figured, was a contact inside the starter that was grounding out randomly. Finally fused itself to the side of the starter and stopped working all together. New starter and she runs like new

Mzarate18215

So just get a new starter than? Do you know how much they cost? Sorry I'm getting frustrated at the car it keeps turning off. The battery seems very weak. Does your car have 2 batteries in it on each side?

WhiskeyChick

iTrader: (4)

That's what was wrong with mine. It was 40 bucks plus core but that depends where you are. Starters are less then a hundred bucks though.
I only have one battery on the drivers side and I'm non digital dash.
If you think your battery is weak should have it load tested and check the voltage from your alt too. The regulator might not be charging right?

Mzarate18215

Yes I'll check those as soon as possible thanks. My battery just keeps dying the instant I turn it off. It'll run for hours when I give it a jump but as soon as I turn it off it just won't start the battery just drains and I'm not sure why.

WhiskeyChick

iTrader: (4)

Auto or manual?
And do your lights still come on and everything when you turn the key it just won't turn over?