IronEagle455

Hi there

Yesterday we did a oil change to my īBird, the car is a 305 TBI, anyway, my brother suggested we poured a quart of ATF inside the ENGINE to help it with cleaning, he did add about a quart of ATF to it but didnīt drain anything before, so, as soon as he turned on the car, it began smoking BAD, he did spill some on the exhaust manifold but not that much, and smoke is coming from the tailpipe, He said it was probably the "cleaning" ATF was doing but I just didnīt feel good about it and we shut down the car.

Now, after draining the old oil and adding 5qts of 10w40 Valvoline Maxlife, my car keeps smoking, we ran the car for about and hour today and the car kept smoking and smoking, sometimes when I revved it a little(2000-2500) the smoke went away for maybe a few seconds.

He believes there is still some ATF inside the engine that is causing this, but I just donīt see how that could happen.

Any ideas what could be causing this, anyone had a similar issue after using a quart of ATF on their engines? Could the rings have failes So soon after that?
Valve seals maybe?

Car has only 109k miles on it.

Thanks in advance.

86_irocz-28

ATF in the engine???? 10w40???

IronEagle455

Yes, he and my father have been doing that "trick" for years on their cars, since mine was parked for AT LEAST 5 years, they thought it could help some, something about ATF being like detergent. He mixed it with the oil already in the car.

Anything wrong with 10w-40 Maxlife oil? Should I use other kind of oil?

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I've heard of people doing this. Im still not sure how it would cause this much smoke out of the tailpipe unless it was already "Damaged" to begin with. I wouldnt condone the practice though...

jokerZ71

We use to pour it down the carb in small amounts slowly to clean the valves & chambers.It would smoke like a freight train for 10 minutes or so.Adding it to the oil doesn't sound like a very good idea.ATF is very high in detergent.If your engine was particularly dirty or gummed up,it prolly broke loose a lot of sludge & debris & is now circulating in the oil.You may try 2 or 3 oil changes back to back to be sure you get it out,but,sounds like you may have made a big boo boo.

rusty vango

I have seen this done many times .and the results are never good ones. I have been using Castrol oil since 1977 and it is a good oil.i recommend it to all my customers with good results. I would do a compression test on all the cylinders.that will tell you the condition of the rings and valves.

jokerZ71

I've even heard of ppl using a quart of diesel to the oil & as you said,never good results.I won't even use Rislone or any other flush type additives.With todays oils & the detergents & additives they contain,it's just completely unnecessary & very risky,especially if the motor is particularly dirty or has been sitting for a long time.

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

10w-40 isn't bad, though 10w-30 would be preferred.

Did you start the car before changing the oil? (i.e. did it smoke like a freight train before?) because something may have already been screwed up and the ATF (bad idea) just exacerbated the problem.

I second the back to back oil changes, clean that crap out asap.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I am having issues with how ATF in the oil is going to affect ring seal. Damaging bearings, clogging up oil galleries and lifters... I can believe that. But white smoke means either coolant system leak (headgasket), hole in a piston, or severely damaged/worn rings. Im just not seeing how some ATF in the oil is going to affect ring seal that badly. Im not sure it'd affect ring seal at all. ATF is still a lubricant, even if it's not as good as motor oil. It may be that it's so much thinner that it's staying on the cylinder walls and burning off.... but I dont think the ATF trick by itself has destroyed the engine. It may have exposed a problem it already had, but that's as far as I can see it going. If it started knocking and making noises, then I'd blame THAT on the ATF, but smoke... not so much (assuming you've changed the oil since then).

jokerZ71

The ATF does produce white smoke(lots of it) when poured thru the carb,so,yes it has to be getting into the combustion chamber somehow.As you said,there were likely problems already & the ATF is just showing those problems up.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Ok , Here's this old motorhead's guess ;

The transmission fluid loosened all manners of built up sludge which then promptly ended up clogging the oil return passages from the heads . The head's oil passages being thus blocked , the oil has no easy path back to the crankcase and is now pooling in quantity enough so as to be flooding and flowing right past whats left of it's valve guide seals . Result = now constant oil burning where there was none previous .....

paulo57509

Here's my take. FWIW.....

Add a quart of ATF to an already full crankcase (assumption). Now the engine a quart over filled.

The crankshaft now churns up the oil, it gets past the rings and the oil pump tries to pump froth. There's potential for all kinds of bad things to happen.

The ATF probably soaked into the ring packs and into the carbon build-up in the combustion chamber. This should eventually burn off and the smoking should stop. Provided the engine is in decent condition. How's your oil pressure? It's kind of like when you decarbon a particularly dirty engine. It can smoke for a while.

IronEagle455

Thanks for all your Input, I know this was a stupid move but thankfully IT APPEARS it isn't as bad as i thought.

After a night of reading about oil overfill and itīs consequences, I went out today and checked my PCV and sure enough it was FILLED with oil, mostly ATF.

As Paulo wrote, my brother overfilled the engine and apparently some of it found its way through the PCV to the TBI, the car starts right away and revs freely, Iīll try to get a compression tester and see how it goes.

I took out the spark plugs and they look a little bit dark, left bank being darker.

Iīll clean them up and start the engine again.

I tend to believe this was just a reaction to an overfill more than ATF being on the engine, the car was run AT MOST about 5 minutes with the ATF inside, then we drained it and poured the 5qts of MaxLife.

Again, thanks for the input, Iīll try to run the car again and see if it stops smoking.

BTW, Oil pressure was good

FRMULA88

My dad used to do this trick to clean sticking lifters and it does work.

BUT you are not supposed to over-fill the crankcase..

mjdavis68

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like most likely the valve stems seals are old and oil seeping past causing the smoke

IronEagle455

Just cleaned plugs again, car ran so-so but smoked less than yesterday.

I decided to check oil level and itīs showing about 3/4 inch past the arrow on the dipstick, I was under the impression this cars needed 5qts of oil but the car seems to have more than that even thou We only added 5qts after draining it.

I took out the left valve cover and when the vacuum line for the booster was off it began dripping oil on the engine bay, about 4 or 5 teaspoons. and the head was flooded with oil.

Also 1 rocker arm was loose and another one completely disconnected. Seems like this is going to be more work than I thought at first...

jokerZ71

5 qts will put it slightly above full on the dipstick.IDK about 3/4" tho.If your head was flooded with oil,most likely the drainbacks are @ least partially clogged,so,you may not have gotten it completely drained.The oil in the head coulda slowly drained back to the pan.Is the oil trying to back up on you as pour it in?If it's also in the brake booster,you could be pulling more from there,but,that shouldn't be goin back to the pan.The oil sitting in the head is most likely leaking past the valve seals & your sucking oil from the booster as well.Mite as well pull the other valve cover to see how things look there as well.

IronEagle455

This is what it look like after removing the driverīs side valve cover

jokerZ71

From what I can see,it doesn't appear to be very dirty,or,flooded with oil,unless you've cleaned it some.@ this point,the loose rockers & how they got that way would worry me more.I would reinstall & set them,then verify that all off them are pumping oil.If it's been sittin for that long,a lifter could not be priming,or,even stuck in it's bore.Ck the pushrods to be sure they're not bent.Push down on the pushrods on those 2 lifters to see if they are operating as they should.

IronEagle455

I just checked the pushrods and the one with the rocker completely disconnected is missing, can the pushrod go down inside the engine? Iīve never heard of this before, or did the previous owner took it out? Why the hell would someone do that?

I guess Iīll have to take out the intake manifold and find out...

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It might be hanging out in the lifter valley. You'd have to pull the intake to get to it if that's the case. Thats is perplexing. Makes me wonder if the lifter is damaged or something. As a 305 TBI car, it should have a roller cam, so some of the complications that could have resulted from a flat tappet doing that wont be an issue for you. But I would still suggest you address it. That's an intake lifter, so that cylinder was basically never firing anything at all.

Also, I suggest you and your friend do some research about ATF:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=3052981

Synthetic oil is gonig to do a lot more to clean out build up than ATF.

jokerZ71

it's possible that it coulda fell into the valley,especially if bent.Pulling the intake is definitely in store.That will also let you get a good look @ the cam lobes & ck the lifters.Also,take a scale & measure the hgt on those 2 valves as compared to other valves that are fully seated.You could have a valve stuck or a broken spring or 2.

IronEagle455

This is what I found when I took out the intake manifold. the pushrod was bent and broken in two and ended up in the lifter valley.

Tomorrow Iīll check if the lifter is damaged too... too tired and my sight isnīt as good as I would like it to be.

Anyway, Seems Iīll have to replace it, seems like a good time to replace valve seals too. What Else would any of you suggest I change while Iīm at this,

I was thinking of dropping my TPI I recently bought while Iīm here but I feel that would be another can of worms that I donīt need to open just yet.

Iīll go out tomorrow and check the rest of the engine.

Any guesses here? can oil overfill cause this? or was this somekind of overrev?

Do you think this was like that from some time before? Iīve had the car for two months now and just when it stopped stalling I notice this.(EXTREMELY bad timing and me blaming it on the TBI).

Again, thanks a LOT for all your help.

paulo57509

A bunch of "missing" push rods:



1968 Z28, 302 CID that lost its timing chain. After we replaced the timing chain, it would still cruise at 80mph on two cylinders. But it wouldn't climb any kind of grade, though.

Yes, the oil pressure was a bit low.

jokerZ71

Offhand,I'd say you have a bent or stuck valve.Ck to see if you can compress the valves on that cylinder.After reinstalling the pushrod & rocker,turn the engine over by hand to watch valvetrain action as well.Be sure you get all the frags out from the pushrod.

rusty vango

at this point .you have evidence of a serious over rev. I would not trust just repairing the damage up top .I bet there is damage to the crank and rods as well

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Possible. I would replace the pushrod and just drive it. Don't put any money into it, just get it working and drive it. It may be good, it may not be. But chances are it'll hobble itself along just fine.

jokerZ71

@ this point,i'd ck the lifters & cam out while the intake is off,then reassemble & turn it over by hand while watching the valvetrain to make sure everything is moving freely & as it should.If so,fire it up & see what shakes loose......or not.

IronEagle455

This weekend Iīll go ahead and check the valve, lifters and cam, if they look good Iīll go ahead and replace the pushrod.

the most I have revved the engine was MAYBE 3000-3500, I just have a hard time considering it excesive, do you think the pushrod could have been broken since I bought it?, the engine has been run maybe about 2-3 hours since I bought the car 2 months ago, the car had a terrible idle(really bad timing) so I didnīt run the engine much.

Since I have the intake and valve covers off, what would you suggest I change before assembling everything back together, Iīm thinking of changing the seals, should I go ahead and change ALL pushrods and springs too? Or its just not worth it?

Would you trust a junkyard cam since itīs a roller cam? an 89 IROC just hit a local junkyard and I was thinking of going out and get the cam.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It'd probably require you to retune it, and depending on what IROC it is, it may not even be a different cam. I dont think they got the same cams... but basically if the cam is big enough to make a difference you'll need to retune it and it's probably not big enough to be noticable. Especially not for the work involved, so just leave it alone.

We would all have to look at it and see if we can determine why it failed, if there's no obvious reason ,it was probably over-revved at some point. In which case, again, I'd just make sure if you replaced the pushrod that it wont happen again due to anything in the valvetrain, and just roll with it the way it is. If it over-revved enough to bend and break a pushrod, I'd look real close at all the other pushrods too. Look at the lifter real close.

But the engine has now been proven to have been through some sort of traumatic experience that may or may not have severely limited its life expectancy and performance potential. I'd just throw it together with the minimum investment of time and money necessary and just roll on it til it blows. If you want something faster, just get a different engine. I'd consider an LT1, or an L31 crate engine. Just dont put a goodwrench 350 in it. Ever.

IronEagle455

I made some time and looked at the parts, I havenīt taken out the cam, but I took out another pushrod and installed it in place of the broken one and turned the engine by hand, the valve opens freely and the lifter showed no signs of damage(at least on the top).

The pushrods however, do look a little bent so Iīll go ahead and change them all at the same time. Valve springs LOOK good, besides the visual inspection, any way of knowing if they are bad?

I guess youīre right, the cam isnīt worth the hassle, Iīll wait to see how the engine reacts with the new pushrods and begin saving money for a 350 in the future.

jokerZ71

If the engine had been sittin for a long time,rods coulda bent on startup if everything was partially froze up.Always best to turn it over by hand if it's been sittin for long periods.Excessively bad timing coulda also caused this,along with partial hydrolock if flooding occurred.After the ATF & overfill,it will prolly smoke for awhile til it burns all that oil outta everything.

IronEagle455

Thanks for the answers, sorry I couldīt reply before but I was out of town.

Iīll probably end up working back on the car on a few weeks since work just got on the way.

A friend of mine just offered me a LT1 cam from a 95 Camaro, itīs the stock LT1 cam, I was thinking of dropping it on the 305, do you think this is a good idea?

Iīll be changing valve seals, all pushrods and possibly all valve springs, do you think stock replacement valve springs are OK for the LT1 cam? or should I install a different set?

Again, thanks a lot for the replies you all have given me.

Barlow8869

iTrader: (1)

subbing to see how it turns out

The_Wraith

Transmission fluid to clean engines is a myth. It was a recommendation by GM back in the early 70s to add a small amount to hide a lifter tick that owners complained about in SBC trucks.

There are NO detergents in ATF. It will NOT clean your engine out.

IronEagle455

OK, so almost a month after I can finally come back to my car.

I just went ahead and bought all the pushrods for the car(Canīt believe I had to drive to 4 different Autozone stores to get all of them)

Now, after this time, Iīm thinking of just changing the pushrods and see how it runs, I havenīt been able to run the compression test yet so I might as well install the pushrods, assemble the engine back and see how it runs for a few days, then run the compression test and see what needs to be done.

If all it needs is seals, then I can still change them with the heads installed, if theres another problem then maybe Iīll go ahead and look for a better head to start with.

Thanks again for all the replies, Iīll update as soon as I have something to post.

IronEagle455

Adding this post because I hate to open posts with no solution to them.


So, after almost 5 months waiting to fix my car it is assembled again, the smoke is all gone after cleaning the intake and ports in the heads, the valve trains is solid right now.

I changed all the pushrods and at first the car did not start, turns out I left the valve too tight, after loosening the rockers it fired right away, but went back to the old issue of stalling and misfiring.

So, right now I know the engine survived my stupidity , I know the bottom end is sound and no oil from the exhaust, not even at start up. BUT, I still have issues with the stalling .

I guess I have to open another thread to ask about that issue now that the smoke is gone.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

ATF is EXTREMELY high detergent. It has to be, to keep the innards of the transmission as clean as possible.

I've been using it in motor oil as a cleaning agent for many decades now; in fact I have it in my 04 Avalanche RIGHT NOW that just had the legendary Castech head situation (THAN YOU old GM!!!!) and had that gunk all built up in the crankcase.

It didn't cause any problems that weren't already there, THAT you can be sure of. Not broken push rods, not smoking, not bottom end problems, NOTHING. It's not harmful in any manner way shape or form.

Next time ya need push rods, order em from Summit or Jeg's.

For the stalling, I'd suggest a tune-up (plugs, cap, rotor, maybe wires) and a tear-down of the throttle body and soaking all its parts in lacquer thinner for 4 hours or so and put it back together with all new O-rings.