8t2 z-chev

Rust must have formed on the lobes that ate the lifters while the car sat unused and caused just those few to dish so bad...,SBCs are tough-just install new cam/lifters and run it:She'll be right mate

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Unless the car was parked because the lobes went flat. Chicken or egg, it's a 305 that isn't worth the cost of a gasket set to revive. The sooner you start down the path to a better solution, the sooner you reach the destination. Dicking with a junk 305 is just a distraction. It's a trap. A pitfall to slow the OP down.

ironwill

And by doing this, you're throwing away the $$$ and work involved in doing so. Besides the fact that you have no way to get all the loose metal out of the engine while it's still in the car (and all it takes is just a little bit left in there to wreak havoc), no amount of ZDDP or any other "break-in" additive will make up for the ****-poor quality of most of today's flat tappet lifters and cheapo-metal parts-store cams. I'd imagine that the 'new' cam and lifters you plan to install will wipe a few seconds after the engine fires, bringing you right back to where you started at post #1 ITT.

Getting some mechanical experience is a great idea, and I am all for that for you, but do it so as to reach a positive result; at the very least, get yourself a good salvage yard 350 and drop that in there.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

As others have said - this is a waste of effort. The engine is full of metal and unless you clean all that out, it's going to scour what's left of the bearings till it knocks, and the increased clearance that will result will lower the oil pressure to everything. You have to essentially pull the engine to get the pan off for cleaning and checking bearings, etc, and at that point you may as well replace it with a used Vortec from craigslist. With the state of the world right now I would wager you can pick one up cheap from the various online classifieds. I'm sure many people that are out of work are selling off their junk.

GD

FRMULA88

Traditional SBCs are slim pickings now at the boneyard, when you say "Vortech" you mean LS truck engine right ?
My 2004 H2 has a "Vortech" it is a 6.0 LS engine (iron block w/ alum heads)

in terms of power potential # per #, $ per $ a stock SBC compared to a stock LS engine; The LS wins.

OP should cut bait and just get a complete junkyard LS engine with harness & ECU.
Get a TV cable adapter for the trans and motor mount adapters and send it. when it lets go in a couple years you now have a motor worth rebuilding.
then OP can upgrade the rear end and trans when the LS grenades them

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

No - when we say Vortec (there is no H), we are talking about the 1996 to 2000 L31 truck engine.

GD

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Right: kinda like "posi" or "Z71", GM has discovered that the word has passed into the general vocabulary and become a buzzword. So they decided to slap it on EVERYTHING.

When we use that word around here, or for that matter on VIRTUALLY ALL OF the Internet forums, we mean the raised-intake-runner design in the 96-2000 trucks.

Vortech makes superchargers. Vortec is the heads.

Agreed on both counts, except that if he did that, then when he gets through, he will have MORE money tied up in it than a 96-2000 truck motor would cost, and LESS results besides. No way a trashed LG4 is worth putting $1200 worth of roller apparatus into. That's ECONOMIC SUICIDE; doesn't even rise to the level of "crazy talk".

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

These engines are DIRT cheap. Here's one near me RIGHT NOW for $200. I bought my 97 for $200 a couple years ago.....

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/...100323152.html

GD

FRMULA88

Well if OP decides to build a traditional SBC using a high-mileage 1996-2000 VORTEC longblock of unknown orgin later on. The roller cam and lifters from a 305 rescue could be swapped over to it along with the timing chain. (and OP learns how to build a motor)

If OP goes LS motor later on then yes the money spent on the roller cam update to his 305 rescue is money lost to tuition on learning to build a motorm or he can sell it to someone else doing a traditional SBC build.

OR OP cuts bait and swaps in a 1996-2000 VORTEC or LS motor (ALSO A VORTEC) now. This forgoes the learning since it's motor in and motor out.. Does OP want to be parts swapper or learn how to build..
I can't make that decision for OP and no one else can either.

Over and out I got real work to do !

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

The L31 Vortec is already a factory roller engine. No need to use contaminated 305 retrofit parts in that case.

GD

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Here ya go: Dallas/Ft Worth Texas Craigslist. I narrowed the search down for you. Ignore the 2002 models - they have LS engines or V6.
https://dallas.craigslist.org/search...&max_price=249
There is a junkyard there. He has more than a few 96-2000 L31 350's.
AAA CRAINS AUTO SALVAGE
3300 Van Horn Ave Fort Worth TX 76111
CALL OR TEXT US AT 469-274-5951... Se Habla Español !
Mon–Fri 8AM-5PM
Sat-Sun 9AM-4PM

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Just so the OP knows what he's getting into...can you guys discuss a little of what is involved in this swap? Like fuel pump, lines, intake, carb or efi of some sort, ignition/ecm/sensors, accessory drive, exhaust (?), oil pan (?) and/or gasket set, etc. It's NOT a one-for-one swap.

BIRD91ZRAG

iTrader: (1)

The metal running through that engine now will trash the roller cam and lifters in short order....

Takes a Vortec intake for a q-jet or Holley, a non-computer controlled carb and distributor, and a fuel pressure regulator to control fuel pressure at the carb. Add a couple sensors to run the gauges and you're good to go. I'm thinking Vortec heads have all the holes in the ends of them for bracketry. Engine mounts are the same, flywheel the same.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

L31 block does not have provisions for the block-mounted mechanical fuel pump, so an electric FP and regulator is needed.
Flywheel/flexplate can't be the same - old block is 2 piece rear seal - newer is 1 piece.
AFAIK, if he has the CCC QJet, he can keep it computer-controlled. All he has to do is change the secondary metering rods and some slight adjusting to the carb.
But now would be a good time to remove A.I.R. if it is still there.

Edit: post #9 shows an adjustable vacuum advance canister behind the cylinder head, so it appears computer control is already gone.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Those shitty little Purolator or Mr Gasket electric fuel pumps work just fine for a carbed application as long as you follow the instructions and mount the pump back by the gas tank, per the instructions. Follow the instructions.

Or do a search for the ZZ3/ZZ4 conversion guide I've scanned and uploaded. It covers installing a regulator and electric pump in a thirdgen.

For the flexplate/flywheel, the parts from an 87-up thirdgen V8 will bolt right to a Vortec 350, along with the starter.

Aside from needing a Vortec pattern intake, the only other thing I can think of that might need attention are the exhaust manifold bolt patterns. The stock manifolds line up with the extra exhaust manifold bolt hole at the front/rear of the heads. I'm not sure if the Vortec heads all use that same pattern or not, even if a person had to leave that single bolt out of the manifolds, I'd rather have that hack than a 305 with a bunch of metal shavings in the oiling system.

naf

iTrader: (7)

rear most bolt hole for the passenger side manifold can not be used with the vortec heads. I've run a set without it for near 100K though. wouldn't know it was missing.

FRMULA88

[QUOTE=BIRD91ZRAG;6362277]The metal running through that engine now will trash the roller cam and lifters in short order....

no kidding really? He HAS TO CLEAN THE MOTOR, try reading all my treads instead of mis-quoting me. Thank you.

naf

iTrader: (7)

yes. I've done this with an LG4 that wiped lobes before. Motor out, cleaned, new bearings: cam and bottom end, K1102 summit cam kit. Basic rebuild kit, cam kit, timing set. Probably had $300 in it. High probability that motor will have low oil pressure if the bearings aren't replaced, IMO.

That was a WHILE ago, wouldn't do it now.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Which consists of, take it out, tear it down, have somebody (machine shop) remove ALL the oil system plugs and the cam bearings, tank it (which will get it clean enough to handle and remove paint and whatnot, but the tank DOES NOT dissolve metal chips), pick up block from shop in this condition, take to quarter car wash early in the morning on a day that will be as sunny and windy as possible, use rifle & shotgun brushes in conjunction with solvent such as diesel fuel and liberal spray soapy water to clean ALL internal oil passages along with a toothbrush shaped one to do the same to the cam bearing grooves to be SURE that he gets ALL the metal chips out of the oil passages so that the VERY FIRST TIME he starts his new build they don't all get flushed right straight into the new bearings he's gonna have to buy, bring block home and let dry in the sun and breeze, oil cyl walls lifter bores & bearing journals, primer & paint, take block back to machine shop, have cam bearings and all plugs installed, COMPLETELY rebuild motor.

By the time all this is done, he will have pulled the motor, disassembled it, spent around $200 at the machine shop, he'll need new rings at the bare minimum and if the cyls are worn he'll need to pay for boring & honing & buy new pistons too, crank turning most likely, full set of new bearings, … for a 305.

NO. Wrong answer.

As said earlier and often, the OP has to make a choice now, between several possible futures. The "right" choice, TO HIM, will depend on his priorities. We can't make that choice for him, the best we can do is point the way by illuminating what happens farther down the chosen path.

In one such future, his priority is to get the car back on the road with the best possible chance of success, the best possible results, the lowest possible cost, the least possible labor (turning of bolts and buying of tools), and the least possible risk. In that future he will find a L31 long block and purchase a Performer intake for it, an electric fuel pump, a few might-as-wells, and that's it. He'll get a roller motor that's easy to upgrade when/if that time comes, and meanwhile, a relatively low-mile, reliable, late-model, leak-free motor with around 250 - 260 HP compared to his LG4's 145.

In another such future, his priority is to spend as little money as possible, he is willing to take the risk of repeat destruction, he doesn't mind getting his hands dirty, and he's willing to buy a bunch of tools. In this one he will buy some cheeeeeeeep cam & lifter set like the 1102, and attempt to revive his LG4. In the end he'll have the same old tired LG4 he had before, with metal chips and damaged bearings, however many miles are on it, the cyl walls in whatever shape, and so on; just, with a new cam in it. He could even just stick the heads back on without a valve job and take the risk of those being less than ideal as well, but of course at minimum cost. Odds of success will be less than 25%; maybe less than 10%.

In yet another, he will "clean the motor" as described above. His priority will be … I'm not sure. He will spend more money on the engine itself than the L31 option, get (if he's lucky) a motor that will produce 200 - 225 HP, he'll have to have a garage and full set of tools for engine building, and he'll have to assume the full risk that always comes with a first motor build. This option will take the most time, so if getting the car back on the road is ANYTHING LIKE a priority, it doesn't fit. He gets the chance to put in a roller cam if he wants, thereby minimizing (though not completely eliminating) risk of that particular failure repeating itself. Upgrading to a roller cam will cause his final bill JUST FOR THE MOTOR ITSELF to be AT LEAST twice what the L31 option will cost, apart from the tool purchases. He'll have to R & R the motor, same as the L31 option. Of course, if he chooses this path, he will "learn" the most about building motors, IF that's a priority to him.

Yet another possibility is to get some random 350 core and do all the same stuff as "clean the motor", except to some motor other than the LG4. It will be riskier in some senses because he will have no clue about the condition of the castings he starts with. But I'll throw it out there as a potential path he could take.

I know which way I would go, and it SURE AS HELL would NOT be "clean the motor". But it's not up to me.

BIRD91ZRAG

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=FRMULA88;6362331]You're welcome. You never mentioned cleaning the motor out in that post I took the quote from. I do read your treads, you're down to the wear bars... LOL!

BIRD91ZRAG

iTrader: (1)

If he throws a cam in the 305 and puts it back together, I'm betting the bottom end will be trashed before the new cam gets broken in...
I agree, get a junkyard L31 350 and put it in.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I couldn't remember if it was the driver's front or passengers rear. I gave a buddy a pair of HO manifolds to run in a pure stock race car. Minus one bolt, and plugged the dipstick tube hole, they fit great. We just changed the oil after every race, and it was all good.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Pass side rear.

For those who aren't familiar with oil flow inside the block of a SBC, here's acoupla REALLY CRAPPY diagrams.







These show (hard to read, but w/e) how the oil leaves the pump, goes through the rear main cap, up into a vertical passage from top to bottom of the block, at 2 angles toward the oil filter, one drilled from the ream main bearing saddle at an angle, and the other from the filter boss at an angle; the vertical passage is blocked by a plug about an inch above the cap register surface; from out of the filter it goes horizontally through a passage drilled from the outside world above the filter (a plug in this passage can be used for OPSU and In fact is, in some installations); to the same vertical passage mentioned above, above the plug; upwards; to the rear main cam bearing; around the outside of it in a groove; 3 passages then carry it from the rear of the block toward the front; the driver's side goes through the lifters on that side, on the pass side the distributor housing "completes" the passage; the center passage goes above the cam, and has grooves behind all the cam bearings going downwards to the mains, and as the crank turns, the rod bearings.

Very simple, very "bulletproof", but there are certain places that can cause trouble. Lack of that one plug causes oil to COMPLETELY bypass the filter, and dirty oil goes EVERYWHERE into the motor. Obviously the mains & rods are kinda out at the very end of the whole thing. And, if the dist doesn't seal well, it creates a MASSIVE internal oil leak. Some dist mfrs actuall put O-rings on the dist body to seal that up.

Yes I've built 1 or 2 SBCs over the course of my few hours on this cinder of ash circling this very ordinary star.

NTXCAMARO

UPDATE-- tore the rest of the engine down (just top end). Lapped the valves and replaced the valve seals. Replaced the cam (summit 1102), replaced the cam gear and timing chain, flushed the engine(as best i could), Cleaned and cleaned and cleaned.. Replaced the water pump..old one was not turning smooth. Fired right up(after i unstuck the choke,it was stuck closed). Ran it at 2K RPM for 20 minutes..So far i have driven it for almost 100 miles. Fingers crossed every time i take it out but so far so good.
The process was a lot of fun for me...i learned a lot and ready to upgrade to more HP...just got start saving up and keep an eye out for the Vortecs!!
I really appreciate this forum and everyone that took time to post comments, advice and suggestions.
Picture of the reassembled engine attached

mikeceli

iTrader: (2)

Great! Thanks for updating!

NTXCAMARO

From what i could tell the zero compression on Cyliner 6 was due to the lifter sticking from all the varnish build up from the car sitting for 22 years.

mikeceli

iTrader: (2)

I am NOT big on additives, but in my 25+ years in Automobile Repair Business, I have had good luck replacing 1 quart of oil (on and oil change), w/ a bottle of Rislone brand "Engine Treatment 100QR. The one that (slowly) cleans inside engine parts, lifters etc.

FireDemonSiC

I know I'm a little late to the party on this one and I didn't read many responses after the lifter photo. However, I have experience with engines that have had cam failures. Assuming that you are planning on keeping the 305 for now until other plans are made, here is what I would do.

Get yourself a new cam/lifter set. This is the ONE good aspect of flat tappet setups. They're cheap. Remove the oil filter and the filter adapter. Install a pipe plug into the internal bypass of the adapter. This will force all the oil through the filter at all times the engine is running. Motors with the bypass open typically will NOT pass oil through the filter unless the engine is idling. If you do this, make sure you only run premium filters from here on out that have increased flow capacity and canister burst strength. I would also recommend running the taller truck filter.

Grab yourself a filter that does NOT have an internal bypass. This will ensure that (almost) all the metal debris released into the engine will be forced through and caught by the filter as it is circulating in the oiling system.

Make sure you break the new cam/lifter set in properly with high ZDDP oil. This is VERY important for flat tappet setups. After break-in, grab yourself 2-3 oil changes worth of cheap oil. Let the engine idle in the driveway up to operating temperature. Maybe even drive it a few miles. Change the oil several times to clean as much as that crap out as you can.

It may live for a long while or it may not. There is no 100% telling but you do have a decent chance for not alot of money if an engine swap is not in your immediate plans and you just want the car running for now,

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Good advice above.
If you do decide to do this, MAKE DAMN SURE you get quality lifters. There are still import knock-offs out there.
Unscrupulous people would buy both import and real GM lifters, put the knock-offs back in the GM boxes, and then return them for a refund.
So you could potentially buy real GM and get the garbage in the boxes. Don't buy anything that comes in a plain white (as in Skip White) box!