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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
As stated in the title my 1990 Iroc-Z left me stranded yesterday with a No Start/No Crank Condition. Long story short, went from home to AutoZone, Shut car off. Left AutoZone and went to HFT, shut the car off. Left HFT and went to my parents as my mechanic was replacing the Rear Diff on my Chrysler 300... shut the car off. It sat for a few hours while we scoured the earth for these Axle Seals. Thought we found it at another AutoZone so I started the Camaro right up and drove over, shut the car off. They didn't have the part, went outside and started her right up... drove 1 mile down the road to NAPA, shut her off. Came out of NAPA and she absolutely wouldn't start. My mechanic followed me so he tried to give me a Jump, No-Go... The lady at NAPA goes in & grabs one of those Jump Packs, hooks it up, NO-GO.
My Observations/Questions:
- Dead/Bad Battery X2, but if each attempted battery was low/dead wouldn't it still take a Jump and the Alternator continue charging the battery?
- Bad Alternator?
- Bad Starter? I thought I read when we start a car the battery voltage shouldn't go below 10V? Well with both attempted batteries the Battery/Voltage gauge in the dash goes up to nearly 13V with KOEO but when the key it turned to the start position, the starter doesn't make a sound. No Click, No whine, Nothing. The only observation I have here is that all the interior lights etc went dim and the Battery/Voltage Gauge is flatlined on the 8V when trying to start. Furthermore the battery that tested good, and has started my 92 without issue even after sitting days did the very same thing as the battery that was installed and running up to the point of the No Start.
The 2 GMSM's I have I can't find a No Start: No Crank Troubleshooting Guide, can anyone lend a hand?
First thing I'd do is bypass the start enable relay with a jumper wire, it's probably in the driver's side footwell area. If the car cranks and starts, that relay was probably bad. If the car cranks and doesn't start, VATS might be bad. If the car still does nothing, I'd be suspicious of the ignition switch. Another place to look is at the starter itself for burned fusible links, but I'd start at the relay because it's easy. Could also be dead starter.
First thing I'd look at would be the fusible links.
I will look at them as soon as I have access to my jack & tools, they're stuck at my parents house. I think there's a total of 3? 2 down at the starter and one that can be seen near the battery? If so I can check that one by the battery. Also thank you for taking the time to assist!
First thing I'd do is bypass the start enable relay with a jumper wire, it's probably in the driver's side footwell area. If the car cranks and starts, that relay was probably bad. If the car cranks and doesn't start, VATS might be bad. If the car still does nothing, I'd be suspicious of the ignition switch. Another place to look is at the starter itself for burned fusible links, but I'd start at the relay because it's easy. Could also be dead starter.
I'll look into bypassing the relay, but is that with a Fused Jumper Wire? If so, 30A? As it relates to VATS, with KOEO the Security light comes on then goes off after a second or two and I thought that meant VATS module or whatever read the correct value from the Key? The Ignition Switch is also something I can check, but I may have to start at the starter and wires leading to it. I found this thread Can a starter motor get "weak"?where it was stated
Originally Posted by ASE doc
On the flip side I was close to calling out a battery on a Ford F150 this summer because the engine would barely crank and when cranking the battery voltage dropped to the floor. Performed a starter draw test and found 1000 amps draw due to a faulty starter. A new battery wouldn't have helped that.
What's your thoughts on this? Do you know how I can do that "Starter Draw Test"?
I'll look into bypassing the relay, but is that with a Fused Jumper Wire? If so, 30A?
A wire of vaguely reasonable size and two male spade terminals, a paperclip, a strategically placed pair of needlenose pliers. We're not fixing the car here, we're trying to manipulate it into giving us a different result temporarily to aid in troubleshooting.
Originally Posted by 92RS-HeritageEd
As it relates to VATS, with KOEO the Security light comes on then goes off after a second or two and I thought that meant VATS module or whatever read the correct value from the Key?
Yes that is clearly happening, but it doesn't imply VATS is grounding the wire to the start enable relay, and it doesn't imply the start enable relay is functioning. The point of doing the VATS relay bypass is that it's an easily accessible five minute test that eliminates suspects in your circuit.
Originally Posted by 92RS-HeritageEd
Do you know how I can do that "Starter Draw Test"?
No, but you can test the starter with the key on, car in park / neutral, screwdriver bridging big terminal to solenoid terminal. If you like what you see fusible link-wise when you're down there.
Well with both attempted batteries the Battery/Voltage gauge in the dash goes up to nearly 13V with KOEO but when the key it turned to the start position, the starter doesn't make a sound. No Click, No whine, Nothing. The only observation I have here is that all the interior lights etc went dim and the Battery/Voltage Gauge is flatlined on the 8V when trying to start. Furthermore the battery that tested good, and has started my 92 without issue even after sitting days did the very same thing as the battery that was installed and running up to the point of the No Start..........
Hi Ed, what I'd like for you to do is to take a known good handheld voltmeter to the battery's terminals and do your KOEO and attempted cranking tests and report back the results. Checking it at the big positive wire's mounting stud on the starter (using the starter's frame for the negative) would give helpful info as well. If your 13V truly goes down to 8V at the battery during the attempted start your starter's solenoid could be partially shorted, and if the battery voltage remains at 13 I would suspect a possible bad connection. I one time saw a solenoid short bad enough to draw a bunch of current, but of course didn't magnetize well enough to move the plunger. It wasn't shorted enough to take out a fusible link, but it was shorted enough to dim the lights and not move the plunger. I believe of the 100s of turns of wire in the solenoid's coil several hundred had melted their enamel insulation and shorted to each other, creating a far less effective and far more power hungry electromagnet. I'm not saying this is for sure your problem because it's kinda rare for a solenoid to fail in this way (Transformers handling AC are far more likely to) , but it's far more likely than a fusible link is, the dimming of the lights means that power IS flowing, and fusible links are generally an "All or nothing" proposition, either able to pass the required current or burnt open (open circuit / no connection) ....
First thing I'd look at would be the fusible links.
Found them, but I thought they were clear/translucent? I hate to ask such a noob dumba** question but it there a fuse in the blk plastic piece that's I can see if it's blown? Again, I appreciate it.
The wire itself is the "fuse" in a fusible link. The plastic cylinder is just a molded cover for the connection to the Big Red Wire the link protects.
FLs are color-coded for their size/rating. They are generally about 3 - 4 gauges smaller (larger #) than the wire they protect. The Big Red Wires in these cars are #12 (or rather, the metric equivalent thereof), therefore the FLs are about #16 or its metric equivalent. The color code for that size FL is "rust", as yours are.
It is somewhat normal for the drive to stay "stuck" like that if the solenoid popped it out to start the motor but the process was interrupted before the motor began to run. Once the motor runs it will force the drive inwards unless the solenoid stays energized.
Those FLs all "look" OK, for what that's worth.
The source of your problem is most likely a bad connection involving the Big Red Wires (hence the focus on FLs), batt cables, or batt itself. Which of course is what a bad FL acts like. Might be helpful to see what else does or doesn't work at the instant of enjoying the no-start symptom. Headlights, power accessories, interior lights, accessories such as radio & HVAC, etc. May help pinpoint the location of the failed connection.
The wire itself is the "fuse" in a fusible link. The plastic cylinder is just a molded cover for the connection to the Big Red Wire the link protects.
FLs are color-coded for their size/rating. They are generally about 3 - 4 gauges smaller (larger #) than the wire they protect. The Big Red Wires in these cars are #12 (or rather, the metric equivalent thereof), therefore the FLs are about #16 or its metric equivalent. The color code for that size FL is "rust", as yours are.
It is somewhat normal for the drive to stay "stuck" like that if the solenoid popped it out to start the motor but the process was interrupted before the motor began to run. Once the motor runs it will force the drive inwards unless the solenoid stays energized.
Those FLs all "look" OK, for what that's worth.
The source of your problem is most likely a bad connection involving the Big Red Wires (hence the focus on FLs), batt cables, or batt itself. Which of course is what a bad FL acts like. Might be helpful to see what else does or doesn't work at the instant of enjoying the no-start symptom. Headlights, power accessories, interior lights, accessories such as radio & HVAC, etc. May help pinpoint the location of the failed connection.
Since the FLs look ok, I did test all "Headlights, power accessories, interior lights, accessories such as radio & HVAC, etc." while stuck at NAPA which left me wondering why everything power related was working but the starter.
Hi Ed, what I'd like for you to do is to take a known good handheld voltmeter to the battery's terminals and do your KOEO and attempted cranking tests and report back the results. Checking it at the big positive wire's mounting stud on the starter (using the starter's frame for the negative) would give helpful info as well. If your 13V truly goes down to 8V at the battery during the attempted start your starter's solenoid could be partially shorted, and if the battery voltage remains at 13 I would suspect a possible bad connection. I one time saw a solenoid short bad enough to draw a bunch of current, but of course didn't magnetize well enough to move the plunger. It wasn't shorted enough to take out a fusible link, but it was shorted enough to dim the lights and not move the plunger. I believe of the 100s of turns of wire in the solenoid's coil several hundred had melted their enamel insulation and shorted to each other, creating a far less effective and far more power hungry electromagnet. I'm not saying this is for sure your problem because it's kinda rare for a solenoid to fail in this way (Transformers handling AC are far more likely to) , but it's far more likely than a fusible link is, the dimming of the lights means that power IS flowing, and fusible links are generally an "All or nothing" proposition, either able to pass the required current or burnt open (open circuit / no connection) ....
Ok, I have 1 set of voltage test results. It's all I could get with no assistant to turn the key to run position.
Test #1: Pos DMM Lead to Large Stud + Neg to Starter Body = less than 1V
Test #2: Pos DMM Lead to Wires On Large Stud + Neg to Starter Mounting Bolt = 12.6V
Pos DMM Lead to Large Stud + Neg to Starter Body = less than 1V
That would be a problem either in the Big Red Wire feeding the half of the ignition switch that has the Start contact in it, or in the starter ckt downstream of the ign sw. Which might include but is not limited to: ign sw itself, wires, neutral safety sw, starter relay.
The Accessory contact (HVAC) is in the same half of the ign sw as the starter. Do you have blower when you turn the key to On? (where it goes after you're done starting) No = Big Red Wire; Yes = ign sw or some one of those downstream things mentioned above
That would be a problem either in the Big Red Wire feeding the half of the ignition switch that has the Start contact in it, or in the starter ckt downstream of the ign sw. Which might include but is not limited to: ign sw itself, wires, neutral safety sw, starter relay.
The Accessory contact (HVAC) is in the same half of the ign sw as the starter. Do you have blower when you turn the key to On? (where it goes after you're done starting) No = Big Red Wire; Yes = ign sw or some one of those downstream things mentioned above
Ran out, with Key On, HVAC set to Defrost, Blower Motor works on ea setting.
The big red wire is the largest one that goes onto the Large Stud, w/ the FL's? If yes, That's how I got 12.6V when using the starter mounting bolt as ground vs starter body. Not the Large Stud nor Wires on the Large Stud gave 12.6V when using the any part of the starter body as ground. Is the Purple Wire lonely on the other stud the wire from the ignition switch? I believe it is per my GMSM but I can't check it for Battery Voltage without someone to turn the key. wait, let me try and rig up some long jumper wires where I might be able to get the DMM connected and in the passenger window where I can see it while turning the key!
There are 3 Big Red Wires leaving the starter in your photo. They go toward C100 on the firewall, then once they get inside the car, there are splices that add more to route to all the various consumers of battery inside there. (ign sw x2, HL sw, fusebox, power accessory block up above the parking brake release, etc. etc. etc.)
Yes the purple wire is from the ign sw but the 12V goes through abuncha other stuff to get there. If memory serves it's yellow at the ign sw and becomes purple at the NS sw.
#1) Red Lead to Big Red on Large Terminal/Stud / Ground Lead to Bare Screw by Gas Pedal = 12.7V (Key On)
#2) Red Lead to Big Red on Large Terminal/Stud / Ground Lead to Bare Screw by Gas Pedal = 7.5V-8V (Key In START Position)
#3) Red Lead to Purple on Other Terminal/Stud / Ground Lead to Bare Screw by Gas Pedal = Less Than 1V (Key On)
#4) Red Lead to Purple on Other Terminal/Stud / Ground Lead to Bare Screw by Gas Pedal = Unknown? (Key In START Position). The voltage was increasing, the car actually went to crank and actually started. Using the same battery that was in it before the no start condition.
Is this any solid indicator the Starter Motor / Solenoid is on its way out?
The voltage was increasing, the car actually went to crank and actually started.
Sounds like you have a bad connection somewhere. Probably melted itself together a bit as you held the key down until it eventually conducted enough to operate the solenoid.
So, no, doesn't sound like the starter. Or the solenoid or the battery.
You should find 12V at the big red that feeds the ign sw, 12V on the yellow (I think... consult your FSM to be sure) coming out of the ign sw when your assistant turns the key to start, 12V on the terminal of the thing that wire goes to next (starter relay maybe? Iunno), 12V coming out of that, 12V going into the NS sw, 12V coming back out, and 12V at the solenoid. You might get a quarter or half volt drop here or there, but that's not what you're looking for. Wherever the 12V goes away altogether, that's where the bad thing is. Like, the yellow wire at the NS sw (in) has 11.8V on it, and the purple one (out) has 0.5V on it. In that case, the NS sw is bad. Use your FSM wisely with purpose and BE an electron: follow the path they must take to get from the battery to the solenoid, and through each wire, each connection, and each little gewgaw they encounter. Wherever the 12V goes away, that's where the problem is.
Keep in mind also, you might be able to move something, let's say hold the key down and move the shifter, and it miraculously jumps into action when you come out of Park and hit Neutral. Although I'm sure you've already tried the simple obvious stupid stuff like that, that you can do without even any test equipment.
Well as quick as it randomly started, it randomly quit starting. For good measure I did clean the Large Stud, ring terminals, and mounting bolts/surface on the starter.. result good ole nothing. So back to the drawing board, well the good advice to use my GMSM with a purpose.
Step 1: Test for Bat Voltage while key in Start position at the Purple Wire on starter... DMM read somewhere in the 5.5V-6V range absolutely not 12V. Step 2: Test for Bat Voltage at Tan/Wht & Ground from the "Gear Selector Switch Connector"
Gear Selector Switch Connector? As in the shifter? Anyone have a pic or know if it looks like a Blk Relay, large square directly beside the shifter?
Well I found what I assume to be the Tan/Wht wire referenced in Step 2. It's the only lone wire under the shifter plate, but looks like it's connected to something on the eBrake. I took the best pic I could. Provided this is the correct wire... 12V Key On, Less than 1V when key is turned to Start. Step 3 won't be happening tonight. It's talking about testing wires direct at the ignition switch now and I don't have the comforts of a garage. Pulled the battery for recharge, will pick back up on this tomorrow.
Turns out that was the wire. Today I got back to using my GMSM with a purpose and slapped in the freshly charged battery, removed lower trim, dropped the dang column...
Step 3 Pt 1: Check for 12V at the (2) Big Reds on the ignition switch connectors Result: 12.6V at both
Step 3 Pt 2: Check for 12V at Yellow Wire with Key in Start position Result: FAIL, it was somewhere in the range of 5.5V- but reached 7V while the key was held in the Start position. Lights dimmed, sounded like it gave it's last breath trying to engage the starter
GMSM Diagnosis: Replace the ignition switch... just great, all while I was pressed on it being the starter.
So I finally got the Standard Motor Products US105, but how to install the SOB is going to require a video. I'm in desperate need of I have 2 questions.
#1 - Does the column drop ANY lower than this?
#2 - How on earth would you get it from the lower? There's a whole other thing blocking it!
Go to Home Depot and get one of these. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-8-...W8MM/204759320 You'll need to determine exactly what size you actually need; probably (almost certainly) isn't that one; probably either ¼" or 7mm. Doesn't too much matter, they're hanging on pegs in the aisle, all about the same price.
2 screws hold the switch on, one at the top and one at the bottom. You'll need to make sure it's adjusted right before you raise the column back up.
Piece o cake. So eeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzy even I can manage it.
Interesting, I wonder who welded the steering column bracket to the steering column ?????
The last time I did one, I took the four bolts outta that bracket (took all of about10 seconds) and with that bracket out of the way the switch replacement was a very simple job......
Go to Home Depot and get one of these. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-8-...W8MM/204759320 You'll need to determine exactly what size you actually need; probably (almost certainly) isn't that one; probably either ¼" or 7mm. Doesn't too much matter, they're hanging on pegs in the aisle, all about the same price.
2 screws hold the switch on, one at the top and one at the bottom. You'll need to make sure it's adjusted right before you raise the column back up.
Piece o cake. So eeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzy even I can manage it.
Your advice is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MOTIVATINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG . I gathered myself and took a 7mm & 8mm wrench out there. I think the 7mm is a tighter fit. My wrenches aren't ratcheting so I'll have to hit a Tool Store tomorrow.
Interesting, I wonder who welded the steering column bracket to the steering column ?????
The last time I did one, I took the four bolts outta that bracket (took all of about10 seconds) and with that bracket out of the way the switch replacement was a very simple job......
How on earth did you drop the column so LOW?!?! You have FULL clearance. Can I drop my column to "seat level" where the wheel is resting on the seat??????? Yes, I'm a bit afraid of breaking something
Last edited by 92RS-HeritageEd; Sep 14, 2022 at 07:40 PM.
Interesting, I wonder who welded the steering column bracket to the steering column ?????
The last time I did one, I took the four bolts outta that bracket (took all of about10 seconds) and with that bracket out of the way the switch replacement was a very simple job......
Is that big chunky bracket a 91-92 thing or did I just find another part my car doesn't have? My whole column drops down with two bolts and I have nothing like a big metal blocking thing in there.
How on earth did you drop the column so LOW?!?! You have FULL clearance. Can I drop my column to "seat level" where the wheel is resting on the seat??????? Yes, I'm a bit afraid of breaking something
I took the three bolts out of the lower column flange where it bolts to the floor (firewall) and with the tilt wheel tilted fully up I dropped the wheel right onto the front seat. But, like you can see in my pic, my column to dashboard bracket wasn't welded to the column, so removing that contributed greatly to my available access. I've done at least three Firebird columns, and that bracket wasn't welded on any of them, and yet your welds don't look like backyard welds, it looks too neat for that.......
Is that big chunky bracket a 91-92 thing or did I just find another part my car doesn't have? My whole column drops down with two bolts and I have nothing like a big metal blocking thing in there.
Hi Komet,
The big chunky bracket is held to the dashboard by two nuts (which screw onto studs in the metal frame of the dash), and the steering column has four bolts holding it to that bracket. My car is a 1989 and I also had a 1987 T/A that was exactly the same as my 89 in my pic. I'd like to see a pic of that area of your car to see what your seeing that's different, I always thoughts Camaros & Birds were the same, steering column wise. Believe it or not, although I've worked on a good number of Birds, I've not once had a good peek under the dash of a Camaro.....
A view from up above, I don't know, , , , maybe Birds & Camaros are that much different that my Bird experiences ain't gonna be of any help to you Camaro guys
A view from up above, I don't know, , , , maybe Birds & Camaros are that much different that my Bird experiences ain't gonna be of any help to you Camaro guys
They might be different. My 92 Camaro looks exactly the same as this 90, and I personally didn't weld anything. Also is there some cable that "mounts" to the ignition switch in a Blk Connector piece that runs into the gear shifter? The Blk piece didn't come on the new US105, so I'm assuming I just use the one already there as it's not an actual part of the switch?
They might be different. My 92 Camaro looks exactly the same as this 90, and I personally didn't weld anything. Also is there some cable that "mounts" to the ignition switch in a Blk Connector piece that runs into the gear shifter? The Blk piece didn't come on the new US105, so I'm assuming I just use the one already there as it's not an actual part of the switch?
Yes that's the interlock between the gearshift and the ignition, it's what keeps the key from turning to the lock position when the gearshift is in any gear besides park, and keeps the gearshift from moving out of park when the ignition is in the locked position. My new switch didn't come with it either, so I reused the original pieces.
And Thank you to both you & Komet, I learned something new here tonight, that there are differences in Camaro VS Bird columns.......
Thank GOD for @sofakingdom for the REAL MOTIVATION and @OrangeBird for telling me about the column flange at the firewall!!! I got the column dropped to the seat, old switch removed and new switch "Adjusted" and mocked up to the BEST of my abilities. By "Adjusted" I'm praying that meant make sure the notch where the rod goes is in the same spot as the old switch, mocking the SOB up, inserting the key, turn to Start, release to Run, back to Off position being able to remove the Key from the cylinder? If yes... YESSSSSSSSSSSS so far so good! Question is can I connect the battery & test start with the column resting on the seat?
I'm BUMMED. While I'm glad I didn't destroy anything in the Ignition Switch Replacement however that must NOT have been the problem. Battery at 12.7V, turned key to On, cluster lit up like normal, turned to Start position, same ole No Click - No Crank. If we look at Post #4, I posted the whole GMSM guide. I grabbed the DMM, 12.6V at 2 big reds on new switch when connected, KOEO. At the yellow wire, when the key is turned to start I'm still not getting 12V, the DMM is in the 7V-8V range so I'm back where I started.
Could I have a bad out the box US105?
Is there something inside the switch that moves the 12v from the big red's to the yellow wire? Essentially how does the yellow wire get 12V
First thing I'd do is bypass the start enable relay with a jumper wire, it's probably in the driver's side footwell area. If the car cranks and starts, that relay was probably bad. If the car cranks and doesn't start, VATS might be bad. If the car still does nothing, I'd be suspicious of the ignition switch. Another place to look is at the starter itself for burned fusible links, but I'd start at the relay because it's easy. Could also be dead starter.
As my efforts continued, I used a 30A fused jumper between Big Yellow (E) & Big Tan/Wht (A) on the Starter Enable Relay connector. Result was the same sadly.
Inside the switch, there's just a big plastic block with a few brass or copper things in it that slides along with it as the rod moves up & down, and those touch the various contacts as it passes over them. About as simple as it gets.
Sounds like the problem is likely farther upstream. Check the 2 Big Red Wires coming into the switch as you try to start it. Keep in mind, a bad connection may very well allow enough current to pass to make a meter read 12V, but have enough resistance to cause voltage drop when high current like a starter solenoid load is trying to flow through it.
If memory serves there are 2 red wires going to the ign sw. The various loads (starter, ign itself, acc, etc.) are distributed between them, with half of the connector being devoted to each. Looks to me like the blue half is the one you'll be concerned with. Verify that you have 12V at the red wire right next to the yellow one while you're turning the key to start. You may find that there's 12V there when it's just sitting, but it goes away when you turn it to Start. In which case, the problem is in the 12V being fed to the switch by the Big Red Wire, and you'll need to trace back from the ign sw toward the batt, along the wire. Rather than the "troubleshooting" guide, I'd just use the wiring schematic, starting at the ign sw; and trace back upstream from there. I'm expecting there will be a splice, then C100, then the wire under the hood, then the fusible link, and then you're at the batt cable.
Yes you can start up the car with the column dropped, as long as the gearshift stays in Park. No I seriously doubt you got a bad new switch. Possible, yes of course; likely, not so much. What would you think the odds are of buying a new switch that has exactly the same problem as your old one? Let's say, you have some small odds of the switch being bad somehow; then out of all the possible ways for it to be bad, what are the chances that it's bad that EXACT way? I'd tend to discount that possibility.
While you're at it, it's a good opportunity to make your dimmer switch work as perfectly as possible (adjustment), if that has ever given a hint of any imperfection.
Per the wiring diagram in the Haynes Manual (My GMSM is open on the troubleshooting guide) 12V comes IN from the 2 Big Reds into the Ignition Switch. When they key is turned to Start contacts inside the Ignition Switch close sending the 12V onto the Yellow wire which runs into the Starter Enable Relay. Should 12V be present on the Yellow wire contacts inside the Starter Enable Relay close sending the 12V onto the Tan/Wht wire. The Tan/Wht is what routes to the Gear Selector Switch. Should 12V remain, if the Gear Selector is in Park or Neutral the 12V continues onto the Purple wire down to the Starter Solenoid and boom you have a started car.
Considering I took a calm moment to think this though logically... my DMM says I am not getting 12V at the Yellow Wire right out of the Ignition Switch. We know this was a NIB part. Should I toss another US105 at it, or hit a parts store? Never in my life have I seen it but again could this NIB Ignition Switch be bad?
Inside the switch, there's just a big plastic block with a few brass or copper things in it that slides along with it as the rod moves up & down, and those touch the various contacts as it passes over them. About as simple as it gets.
Sounds like the problem is likely farther upstream. Check the 2 Big Red Wires coming into the switch as you try to start it. Keep in mind, a bad connection may very well allow enough current to pass to make a meter read 12V, but have enough resistance to cause voltage drop when high current like a starter solenoid load is trying to flow through it.
If memory serves there are 2 red wires going to the ign sw. The various loads (starter, ign itself, acc, etc.) are distributed between them, with half of the connector being devoted to each. Looks to me like the blue half is the one you'll be concerned with. Verify that you have 12V at the red wire right next to the yellow one while you're turning the key to start. You may find that there's 12V there when it's just sitting, but it goes away when you turn it to Start. In which case, the problem is in the 12V being fed to the switch by the Big Red Wire, and you'll need to trace back from the ign sw toward the batt, along the wire. Rather than the "troubleshooting" guide, I'd just use the wiring schematic, starting at the ign sw; and trace back upstream from there. I'm expecting there will be a splice, then C100, then the wire under the hood, then the fusible link, and then you're at the batt cable.
Yes you can start up the car with the column dropped, as long as the gearshift stays in Park. No I seriously doubt you got a bad new switch. Possible, yes of course; likely, not so much. What would you think the odds are of buying a new switch that has exactly the same problem as your old one? Let's say, you have some small odds of the switch being bad somehow; then out of all the possible ways for it to be bad, what are the chances that it's bad that EXACT way? I'd tend to discount that possibility.
While you're at it, it's a good opportunity to make your dimmer switch work as perfectly as possible (adjustment), if that has ever given a hint of any imperfection.
Sorry, I was typing up my last post while you were posting this helpful reply. I ran back out and on the Big Red on Blue Connector right next to Big Yellow and verified 12.6V while sitting. When key was turned to Start it dropped to the same 7V-8V shown on the Big Yellow... so I guess it's on up the Big Red I go hunting. Thank you!!!
Here's the wiring diagram. Do the 2 Big Reds come to one leading to a Fusible Link? As in the MAIN Pwr 12V from Battery has one BIG Red (Blk) going to the Starter Motor Large Stud. On the same Large Stud there are 2 Fusible Links. Fusible Link G routing back up to the Alternator & Fusible Link B. Fusible Link B seems to route back up to the Ignition Switch, powering the 2 Big Red's on the connector. If this is the case is Fusible link B toasted?!?
Do the 2 Big Reds come to one leading to a Fusible Link?
Looks that way.
12V from Battery has one BIG Red (Blk) going to the Starter Motor Large Stud
Correct: that's the battery cable. IOW, if whoever drew that schematic had an ounce of sense, they would have shown those 2 FLs (B & G) meeting the batt cable over to the right a bit, instead of stopping in space like they do. [mr spock] Humans. [/mr spock]
If this is the case is Fusible link B toasted?
Maybe. Do both Big Reds on the ign sw do the same thing? Track back upstream with your meter from the switch: you come to S200 (a splice) which is probably physically very near or underneath the fusebox), which of course can be bad; then C100, which can be bad, could be a problem on either side where the pins/blades are crimped onto the wires or where the connector blades meet up; then the rest of wire #5, which goes from C100 over the bell housing toward the starter; then FL B. At some point you'll find a spot where on one side of it, the 12V disappears when you turn the key to Start, and the other side it stays 12V: that's the thing that's bad, whatever it is. TO be completely honest you can't even really rule out the battery itself at this point in your diaagnosis, as those sometimes develop bad connections internally. Batt cables can certainly fail this way as well.
I'm kinda thinking that whenever you find the problem, it'll be obvious. Probably there'll be something burned up looking.
At some point you'll find a spot where on one side of it, the 12V disappears when you turn the key to Start, and the other side it stays 12V: that's the thing that's bad, whatever it is. TO be completely honest you can't even really rule out the battery itself at this point in your diaagnosis, as those sometimes develop bad connections internally. Batt cables can certainly fail this way as well.
I'm kinda thinking that whenever you find the problem, it'll be obvious. Probably there'll be something burned up looking.
OK, I did an improvised test given all things considered. Disconnected the Battery, Removed Big Red & 2 Fusible Links from starter. Hung them right in the center as to NOT touch any metal surface around, connected Big Red + 2 FL terminals together with the DMM Jumper. held that wire in place with a wrench on the ground to make 90% sure it wasn't moving. Connected the Battery, KOEO 12.54V... Key turned to Start roughly 11.8V. So when removing the physical starter from the equation voltage loss was nearly eliminated .
Does this improvised test mean it could truly be the starter?
By removing the starter, you also removed all the load, and therefore the current that makes the whole thing screw up. Without current there's no voltage drop, ever; therefore you'll never find it that way, EVER. It may have felt a little like a "test" but it wasn't one at all.
Put the car back together. Leave everything wired up exactly as it belongs. Have your assistant turn the key to Start as you probe at each accessible point with your meter. For example, you can easily get to both of the 12V (Big Red) connections to the ignition switch; are BOTH of them affected by trying to start it? If so, then the problem is upstream of BOTH. There's a "splice" feeding them both, which is just exactly what it sounds like: a blibbet of wires all twisted up together and crimped and soldered and taped; not quite as easy to get to. But ONE of the "outbound" connections at S200 goes to "Cell 10"; what's that? Have you checked the voltage there? Is whatever it goes to affected? If it is, then it's either the splice, or something farther upstream. C100 goes through the firewall; if memory serves there's a connector block that clips onto the back of it under the dash, which you can unclip, and see the cabin side of all the wires. Does the 12V go away from there when your assistant turns the key? One screw in the middle of it under the hood and it comes right apart; have you looked at it? Have you tried taking a sewing needle and CAREFULLY probing the Big Red Wires themselves? Use logic.
There are so many ways like that for you to attack it logically and with discipline, there's no reason to just pull out the parts cannon and start a broadside, or get all hung up on one "theory" (such as the starter or solenoid being bad) that you don't have any evidence for yet let alone proof, or otherwise deviate from the path of logic and reason. The single-minded focus should be, FIND THE VOLTAGE DROP. It's a bad connection of some sort somewhere in some thing, you may be sure. Look at the schematic, follow the path that the current has to follow to get from the batt to the solenoid as if you were an electron ("I come out of the battery, I travel along the batt cable, I get to a FL and go up it, I jump into a Big Red Wire, I travel over to C100, ..."), except in reverse, and find where it gets blocked. DO NOT descend into "maybe it's this maybe it's that can it be the other". FIND the problem, not guess at it. It's about 99.999% certain that it's NOT some big part (starter for example) that you just go to the store and buy; it's almost positively going to be a corroded or burned up connection.
This situation is a little like when people complain that their car bogs, sputters, spits back, or whatever, when under heavy load, although it runs fine at idle. That's an OBVIOUS fuel delivery problem. So we ask what's your fuel pressure WHILE IT'S IN THE ACT OF SCREWING UP? and they go out in their driveway with it happily humming along sitting there idling and tell us what it is, but that's NOT WHILE IT'S IN THE ACT OF SCREWING UP. What the gauge reads while it's running right is WORTHLESS. We have to catch it WHILE IT'S IN THE ACT OF SCREWING UP and see what the gauge tells us AT THAT TIME. Same deal here: there's voltage drop SOMEWHERE when heavily loaded, but if there's no current flowing, it doesn't show up. By disconnecting the wiring from the starter you did the electrical equivalent of measuring your fuel pressure at idle instead of WHILE IT'S IN THE ACT OF SCREWING UP. It only shows up when you turn the key to Start, and it only screws up because of the current that's trying to flow toward the solenoid. IOW, if you aren't replicating that EXACT set of conditions, then you're not catching it WHILE IT'S IN THE ACT OF SCREWING UP.
Get your head back in the game and be logical. It's just electricity, and it's just a car's electrical system. It's almost as simple as a ball of mud. You'll find it if you just look correctly.
After the disaster in Post # 44 I'm stuck. Can't get back to troubleshooting because I can't get the old starter out. All wires are disconnected, the mounting bracket, and the 2 bolts. I let it drop down but no matter what way I rotate it this 4800LB sob it's not sliding down though the space by the Control Arm
-Check for worn Engine/ Trans. Mounts...
-Raise/ Lower Trans. Cross-Member...
-Loosen TC to Flex-Plate Bolts in case any Flex-Plate Bolts Holes are opened-up/ shifted/ wallowed-out.
Used my phone-a-friend option out of frustration, and my buddy swung by and got the titan out in less than 8 minutes. His response was my "twist, lift N drop" just wasn't right . I'll get the new one on tomorrow to resume troubleshooting.
In the last 24hrs.... I rerouted the harness with the 3 FL's and big red for a smidge more clearance, got the Jeg's Mini Starter installed. Relocated the Battery To Chassis ground, the PO's sheet metal screw wasn't holding tight.
End result... she started (insert tear) it's been a long journey, THANKS everyone!
my 1990 Iroc-Z left me stranded yesterday with a No Start/No Crank Condition. Long story short, went from home to AutoZone, Shut car off. Left AutoZone and went to HFT, shut the car off. Left HFT and went to my parents as my mechanic was replacing the Rear Diff on my Chrysler 300... shut the car off. It sat for a few hours while we scoured the earth for these Axle Seals. Thought we found it at another AutoZone so I started the Camaro right up and drove over, shut the car off. They didn't have the part, went outside and started her right up... drove 1 mile down the road to NAPA, shut her off. Came out of NAPA and she absolutely wouldn't start. My mechanic followed me so he tried to give me a Jump, No-Go... The lady at NAPA goes in & grabs one of those Jump Packs, hooks it up, NO-GO.
wait, let me try and rig up some long jumper wires where I might be able to get the DMM connected and in the passenger window where I can see it while turning the key! 
As in the shifter? Anyone have a pic or know if it looks like a Blk Relay, large square directly beside the shifter? 
. I gathered myself and took a 7mm & 8mm wrench out there. I think the 7mm is a tighter fit. My wrenches aren't ratcheting so I'll have to hit a Tool Store tomorrow. 
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****. I'm done for the day lol
it's not sliding down though the space by the Control Arm 
