Tech / General Engine Is your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: CARiD

357: My Assembly of Parts

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Jan 19, 2024 | 07:10 PM
  #1  
skinny z's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 892
From: 53.0907° N, 113.4695° W
357: My Assembly of Parts

One forum member inquired as to the engine I've assembled. I figured then I may as well post and update. If for nothing more than conversation although I've some thoughts on the combination.
The list.

357: 4.040” x 3.48”
10.24:1
Wiseco forged 5 cc piston
Eagle SIR rods 5.7”
GM forged crank
Balanced
.008” deck
750 Barry Grant VS
RPM Air Gap
RHS Pro Torker Vortec heads. 175cc, 254@.500
Jones Cam: 280°/284° @ .006", 232°/236° @.050", 108° LSA, 104° ICL
.360"/.360" Lobe Lift
.576"/.576" Valve Lift
1.6 rocker ratio
4.100" x .032" head gasket
Headers: 1 5/8” x mid length, 3" collector

It started. It ran. Got about 80 miles on a break-in cycle.
Now it's waiting for another transmission and the spring.

@NoEmissions84TA
Reply
Old Jan 19, 2024 | 09:16 PM
  #2  
NoEmissions84TA's Avatar
Supreme Member
5 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,185
Likes: 576
From: Meriden, CT 06451
Car: 84 TA orig. 305 LG4 "H" E4ME
Engine: 334 SBC - stroked 305 M4ME Q-Jet
Transmission: upgraded 700R4 3200 stall
Axle/Gears: 10bolt 4.10 Posi w Lakewood TA Bars
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

It's nice to see that someone did the machining correctly:
.008” deck, 4.100" x .032" head gasket, 4.040” bore.
Reply
Old Jan 19, 2024 | 09:31 PM
  #3  
skinny z's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 892
From: 53.0907° N, 113.4695° W
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
It's nice to see that someone did the machining correctly:
.008” deck, 4.100" x .032" head gasket, 4.040” bore.
It worked out well.
That .008" ended up with those Wisecos. A different compression height compared to the previous Speed Pro. The block wasn't decked. What happened though is the go to .026" Victor Reinz (now Mahle) head gasket made for too close a deck (.034") for my liking despite others having success. That led me to sourcing another Mahle gasket. Their Marine line had a 4.100 x .032". Spot on really.
That said, there is a quality to the machining. A lot of work went into the balance given the heavy metal removed that was previously used for the heavy Elgin rods that went into the bin.
I like to think I paid attention to those details that you don't get a chance to when you're hustling to get your ride back on the road.

Last edited by skinny z; Jan 19, 2024 at 09:44 PM.
Reply
Old Jan 19, 2024 | 09:47 PM
  #4  
skinny z's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 892
From: 53.0907° N, 113.4695° W
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

Edited above:
I'm thankful too that the block cleaned up at .040". Sonic checked, crack checked.
That old block has got history too.
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 12:38 AM
  #5  
Fast355's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (2)
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,450
Likes: 510
From: Hurst, Texas
Car: 1983 G20 Chevy
Engine: 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 14 bolt with 3.07 gears
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

If it is undecked, same meausrements in all 8 holes, I would say that has to be an 880 block. I do not think the 638s were even that close dimensionally.
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 09:48 AM
  #6  
skinny z's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 892
From: 53.0907° N, 113.4695° W
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

I suppose saying the block wasn't decked is a little misleading.
It wasn't decked this time around. This is a 70's vintage 010 block. When it went to 30 over about 30 years ago it got the full monty. IIRC about .020" came off the deck to get it square. It's fair to say it didn't change after all of these years.
This time it got a line hone and bored to 4.040". Torque plate honed and some additional detailing. The Wisecos have a 1/16th ring pack which was one of targets when selecting the pistons. Forgings too as I wanted to get away from the hypereutectics I've always used. I'm hopeful this engine will see more racing duty than any of my past builds. The drag strip is just too close to pass up the opportunity.
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 10:24 AM
  #7  
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (20)
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 25,896
Likes: 430
From: Pittsburgh PA
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: 555 BBC Turbo
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: MWC 9” 3.00
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

Need more head lol

why a 1/16 ring? Pretty thick rings. Probably could go thinner unless adding nitrous
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 10:35 AM
  #8  
skinny z's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 892
From: 53.0907° N, 113.4695° W
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
Need more head lol

why a 1/16 ring? Pretty thick rings. Probably could go thinner unless adding nitrous
The 1/16th was what was readily available and shipped in less than several months (at the time). As it is I waited 2 months for these. I was just happy to get away from 5/64ths.

As for the heads, given the cubes and RPMs, they look to be a very good fit. Small volume runner. MCSA in or around 1.900 sq in. At 254 CFM, (without a manifold) I'm not using all of that for a 6200 RPM HP peak that Jones has suggested. It should carry past 6500.
Further on the heads, they're still untested after the latest valve job and pocket porting. So my curiosity is peaked wanting to see how these work.

Last edited by skinny z; Jan 20, 2024 at 10:43 AM.
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 11:44 AM
  #9  
skinny z's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 892
From: 53.0907° N, 113.4695° W
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

Looking at similar builds, (CID, heads, cam) I'm hopeful that 450 CHP is the result. Given that the infamous Sledgehammer Vortec 350 made 447 with less cam and heads, I should be in good shape.
Taking sims for what they are, simulations, it looks to be 450 HP flat from 6000-6500. Peak torque is 4000-4500. This is all open header simulation.
I know a lot of that will go out the window once it's in the car, but as a theoretical base, I'm liking it. If a new converter can get me to that 4000 RPM target, track results should be a step up.
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 12:46 PM
  #10  
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (20)
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 25,896
Likes: 430
From: Pittsburgh PA
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: 555 BBC Turbo
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: MWC 9” 3.00
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

By the cfm 500 hp capable head. Pipemax says 112% ve at 6200 rpm to get there. But recommended csa is 2.18 for 260 fps. Smallest recommended is 1.89 for 300 fps. So it has potential no doubt. That cam would spin way higher tho than 6200 with larger csa head, and even at 1.89 i think it will go higher. Def will hold onto power well beyond 6200. Probably 6600-6800. Seen similar in stock lt1 head deals get up that high, 6200 ish peak but hold to 6600
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 01:22 PM
  #11  
skinny z's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 892
From: 53.0907° N, 113.4695° W
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ
By the cfm 500 hp capable head. Pipemax says 112% ve at 6200 rpm to get there. But recommended csa is 2.18 for 260 fps. Smallest recommended is 1.89 for 300 fps. So it has potential no doubt. That cam would spin way higher tho than 6200 with larger csa head, and even at 1.89 i think it will go higher. Def will hold onto power well beyond 6200. Probably 6600-6800. Seen similar in stock lt1 head deals get up that high, 6200 ish peak but hold to 6600
This is exactly why I posted Orr. That's the kind of input I'm looking for. In that it's similar to my own findings gives some validation. Thanks.

In keeping with the smaller head, I'm hoping to see some benefits other than outright output. Maybe a little better torque at peak due to improved VE? That would help the smaller cubes make more power. I'm looking to keep revs in check although I'm confident all of the parts are capable of more. The valvetrain is nice and light. Good cam and lifters, New PAC beehive springs. Tool steel retainers. Previous engines went 7k but that said, I did lose a link-bar lifter albeit with dated Comp short travel lifters.

6200 was Jones' estimation and past peak was part of my cam request. 6500 would be especially helpful on the 1-2 shift what with the ratio split of the 4L60. The converter is game changer there too if past experience is anything to go by.
The .360" lobe lift is the same lift as the Comp XFI lobe I'd used before, It revved and was dead nuts reliable. Maybe it was a little noisy? Hard to say. I'd asked about durability and maybe endurance too as in an open road event but answers were difficult to come by.

If I crossed the stripe at 6000 RPM, I'd be flying (in comparison) given the gearing and tire. 115 MPH is about that depending on converter slip.

Which version of PipeMax do you have? Mine is severely dated. Probably going on twenty year old. I've talked with Larry Meaux about his latest package but I've yet to pull the trigger.
It'll be my go to for finalizing the collector sizing. I think that'll be key to reaching my goals.

Last edited by skinny z; Jan 20, 2024 at 01:28 PM.
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 01:33 PM
  #12  
vorteciroc's Avatar
Supreme Member
15 Year Member
Loved
Community Favorite
Top Answer: 1
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,924
Likes: 803
From: 212 is up in this Bit@#
Car: Resto-Mod 1987 IROC-Z Clone
Engine: Alky fed L92 Vortec Twin-Turbo 6.8L
Transmission: My own built/ design 4L80M
Axle/Gears: Custom 12 bolt (4.10:1)
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

I like the Build!!!


If the flow Numbers I found for that Head are Correct...
I would have gone with less Lift (I actually prefer the 1.6 Ratio Rocker-Arms, but would have gone with a Smaller Lobe) taking advantage of all the Low-RPM Intake-Runner Velocity that the Head offers.
As well as a different LSA and Install Position relative to the ICL.

Sadly the Low-RPM Intake-Runner Velocity is wasted with this Cam (More Static Compression would help).

Duration remain the same or have been Longer.
With this Camshaft, Power probably does not come in until a Higher-RPM.


Gearing and Stall-Speed will help hide this.

Are the Heads stock?
Have you Flowed them?
Have you had it on a Dynomometer?

Last edited by vorteciroc; Jan 20, 2024 at 01:39 PM.
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 02:08 PM
  #13  
skinny z's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 892
From: 53.0907° N, 113.4695° W
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

Originally Posted by vorteciroc
I like the Build!!!


If the flow Numbers I found for that Head are Correct...
I would have gone with less Lift (I actually prefer the 1.6 Ratio Rocker-Arms, but would have gone with a Smaller Lobe) taking advantage of all the Low-RPM Intake-Runner Velocity that the Head offers.
As well as a different LSA and Install Position relative to the ICL.

Sadly the Low-RPM Intake-Runner Velocity is wasted with this Cam (More Static Compression would help).

Duration remain the same or have been Longer.
With this Camshaft, Power probably does not come in until a Higher-RPM.


Gearing and Stall-Speed will help hide this.

Are the Heads stock?
Have you Flowed them?
Have you had it on a Dynomometer?
The heads have had more than one valve job over the years. This latest, I feel is nothing to write home about though. It was specified to be a 5-angle as the originals although it looks to be 3. The exhaust were radiused out of the box but that's gone too.
It's difficult to go by what RHS originally posted for these heads as they used a 4.200" fixture bore! Somewhat inflated. Stan Weiss' website has a few other examples.
Mine were flowed when the guides were done last time.


As for the cam, I went to Jones Cams with the plan to build a drag racing engine. Drag and Drive is the term I used as I'd like to focus more of the racing side this go around. Target stall speed is 3500-4000 RPM. Naturally there'll be some street duty but race is foremost. It's a quick lobe profile by my estimation. Not too long on the seat but pretty good at .050". .200" numbers are also listed on Jones' website.

No dyno. That I would have liked but it's somewhat impractical given my circumstances.

I'm counting on the converter and new tires to claw back some of the 60'. Personal best in street trim with bias slicks and an off the shelf TCI converter (rated at 1500 RPM over stock stall) was 1.7 flat. I'll take a tenth there if I can get it. As the tires aged, the 60' went south.
It trapped at 108+ with these heads in unported form and a smaller self-spec'd XFI cam. The transmission shifting was always a bit of a let down. 1-2 was like lightning. 2-3... not so much. That's where the new transmission I hope will also be a game changer. That part is still in the works.
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 03:12 PM
  #14  
Orr89RocZ's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (20)
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 25,896
Likes: 430
From: Pittsburgh PA
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: 555 BBC Turbo
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: MWC 9” 3.00
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

I think mine is version 3.98. They are on 4.00 now I guess
Reply
Old Jan 20, 2024 | 03:30 PM
  #15  
skinny z's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 892
From: 53.0907° N, 113.4695° W
Re: 357: My Assembly of Parts

v4.70 to be exact.
There's a discount too even with my ancient version.



Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
AR420
Tech / General Engine
9
Nov 17, 2022 11:40 AM
SilverChicken
Tech / General Engine
7
Jun 19, 2016 10:06 AM
acidpad
Tech / General Engine
20
May 22, 2006 11:51 PM
OctaneJunkie_10
Engine Swap
5
Mar 26, 2002 08:22 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:17 PM.