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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
So, this is awkward. Just got this project a month or so ago. Obviously, it doesn’t start. I narrowed it down to the fuel system. Boy, was I right. Pop the trunk and find a cut to the fuel pump has already been made. Go to pull the pump out, and low and behold, there is literally nothing there. What do yall think my best course of action is?? Thanks!
That's pretty hyeeenous. Someone set very low standards for their work and then failed to even come close to achieving them.
Looks kinda like Cletus and Billy Bob were rippin' out all that computer s*** and slappin' a carb on it. Looks in fact, by the amount of rust on the hose clamps and whatnot, that they did this A LONG time ago. Maybe it even ran like that for a few years.
Maybe... get a fuel pump and put it in there? After dealing with all the rust of course. Depends greatly on what induction system you are putting on it. The CeaseFire will need a pump obviously; a carb setup really only needs the hose in the tank (which needs to be continuous-immersion rated, which that there is NOT) and a filter on the end to keep out the crusties.
PO really screwed that up! Just wow! Are you still running the Cross Fire Injection? If so, there has to be an add-on pusher pump somewhere in-line on the fuel supply side. If the car is converted from CFI to Carb, there is again an add-on pusher pump or someone bolted on a regular fuel pump on the block. Crawl under the car and look at the fuel lines.
What would I do? I would buy a new sending unit (since by the looks of it the gas gauge is not working), and either add the correct fuel pump for the CFI or a L69 pusher pump. Then weld up the hole in the trunk (after pulling the old fuel tank), find and eliminate the pusher pump, but if the car was converted to carb leave the regular fuel pump on the block.
Wow. Ok. Thank you guys! So, it is a crossfire still. I really don’t know what the PO was thinking when they did whatever they did to the fuel pump lol. Here’s a pic of the fuel line (or at least what I think is the fuel line, right after it drops down below the tank)I noticed that one of those lines looks cut?
I thought I would add a pic of the engine. It’s gonna need a lot of work, more than I probably should have released. I have the intake off in that pic.
Pictures are always better than words; and by the looks of them what Sofa said was correct. The Red thing on the passenger side frame rail is the pusher pump. That is what "Cletus and Billy Bob" added to get fuel to the Cease Fire Injection (haven't heard that in years). The disconnected line that you provided the picture of was probably the fuel return line. You have a big mess on your hands. This is decision time, and it comes with cost. What are your intentions for this bird? Factory stock or LS swap (joking - maybe not). That entire fuel system from the tank to the TBI units needs to be replaced (including the tank), just to get stable fuel introduced into this system in my humble opinion (which means nothing to anyone else). Are you attached to the CFI? Do you want to swap out for CARB? By tossing money at the problem and time might not be the best option if you plan on upgrading later...
That Crossfire setup looks pretty haggard. They don't have a great reputation. There was a guy on YouTube once, ran a channel like Crossfire Garage or something. He was really into it, his car almost completely ran for tens of dozens of miles. Started having problems keeping them in sync. Needed parts that were hard to find. He ended up swapping to TBI which actually worked correctly and renamed the channel.
The point is, since you're in it for a fuel pump, now would be a great opportunity to choose something more reliable and easier to live with for an induction system.
Wow; that is a level of hackitude rarely seen on this website, and believe me, we've seen some. At least it looks like it didn't take a whole lot of diagnosis to figure out the problem(s).
What do yall think my best course of action is??
As already stated, that will be determined by what you plan to do with the intake / fuel system.
Thank you guys for your insight. I really do appreciate it. I’m a high school student, and this is my first project car, and it looks like I’ve probably made a poor choice in choosing this one😂. I was originally going to buy and import to work on, but decided to give American a try. Well, here I am. So, my options appear to be:
Completely rehaul the fuel system, and most likely delete the CFI system
Or
Get rid of this one and try again on a better platform.
Yeah the old Crossfire system was pretty much the absolute outer limits of what was electronically possible, in 1979 or 80. Needless to say, everything about it has been supplanted since then. Even the late 80s TBI system, which it's possible to almost DROP-IN DIRECTLY replace the problematic electronic parts of CFI with, is VASTLY superior to the rev 0 TBI that Crossfire was merely 2 of. In fact that's one of the upgrade paths people used to take back when anybody was still bothering to try.
Then of course, that doesn't begin to address the worst shortcomings of CFI; which if you're not already familiar with, you'll discover when you take off the intake, turn it upside down, and look at the ports.
I'd strongly recommend NOT trying to revive that CFI as-is. That one looks like it's enjoyed WWWWWWWAAAAAAAAYYYYYY too much sodomy to be brought back to life successfully. Time to swap to something else. Not necessarily a carb; butt that's certainly one of the options.
The cut hose is probably the tank pressure release. If so, would have gone to the "UFO" valve. Butt that's only a guess, since Cletus might have taken his box cutter to almost ANY of them and considered it A Good Idea. There's just NO TELLING what people like that might do to a car thinking it's an "improvement".
What you end up with depends on your budget, and the crossroads here is largely whether you want to go with a carburetor or fuel injection. One wants about 5psi of fuel pressure, the other wants 43 or 58psi so the fuel pump should match.
Carb is probably cheaper overall, fuel injection gives you modern convenience. I did a TPI swap for a little under $2k ecm included but I got the majority of the components for free.
This car is also a good candidate for an LS swap which sidesteps the issue entirely but that'll end up costing twice what just an induction system will.
Yeah, I have considered maybe doing an LS swap, as opposed to buying a whole new car. I just don’t know what quality of car you would want to have in order to make the swap worth it.
Yeah, I have considered maybe doing an LS swap, as opposed to buying a whole new car. I just don’t know what quality of car you would want to have in order to make the swap worth it.
A good candidate is a car that you can complete and get on the road. That depends mostly on your financial situation, access to tools, and mechanical aptitude.
If that car has all its parts and isn't too rusty, it's probably fine. We all know the CFI took it out early so the motor is likely good. If a motor swap is intimidating, just go for the pump and intake and get it running.
That Crossfire setup looks pretty haggard. They don't have a great reputation. There was a guy on YouTube once, ran a channel like Crossfire Garage or something. He was really into it, his car almost completely ran for tens of dozens of miles. Started having problems keeping them in sync. Needed parts that were hard to find. He ended up swapping to TBI which actually worked correctly and renamed the channel.
The point is, since you're in it for a fuel pump, now would be a great opportunity to choose something more reliable and easier to live with for an induction system.
Lore.
The CFI systems does not come out of synch normally, unless it's messed with. And even if it does, slightly, it doesn't affect operation. TBI parts are not hard to find; it's a "Tech 4 TBI", if which there were 100's of thousands made.
Now, that's not "hearsay"...or my friend's-buddies-dad's car. I actually owned one for over a decade, drove the wee out of it, put three engines in it...CFI part always worked great. It ain't hard/complex or "mystical"...it's a basic, speed density, TBI system.
As for that fuel pump abortion, I'd rip everything out that the PO did, put in all stock fuel pump parts, lines, hoses, etc. then I'd weld the floor pan back together, grind/prime/paint it.
Last edited by Tom 400 CFI; Feb 25, 2025 at 11:44 AM.
I do like that idea. I think this car is such a cool piece of history. It’s a 25th Daytona edition, with Ricardo seats, and the original color was the Daytona white with graphics. I think it would be pretty cool to restore it back to its original condition.
I do like that idea. I think this car is such a cool piece of history. It’s a 25th Daytona edition, with Ricardo seats, and the original color was the Daytona white with graphics. I think it would be pretty cool to restore it back to its original condition.
This car is actually a somewhat desirable car to some people. It may not be hard to get going once the fuel pump fiasco is fixed and the sardine can is properly closed. Another option is a standalone EFI. An edelbrock pro flo xt would fit in there easy. Add a fuel pump and you're all set.
the car looks pretty straight. You could also sell
it.
If you have an 04 Subaru, you have something that could be really reliable. Those kind of go forever. An 83 TA will never be an ideal daily driver. But it could be pretty easy to make fun.
Last edited by Firechicken82; Feb 25, 2025 at 05:43 PM.
All true things. The subi only has 60k miles on it so I’m not worried about needing a daily. If I could get this one running, I think it could be pretty sweet. Also, another thing. Is it common to have true duel exhaust on one of these? It appears as if it has long tube headers also…
Do you have anyone that knows what they're doing or are you in it by yourself? Easiest way to get on the road would be to drop the tank and stitch that sardine can back together. Get a replacement tank and sending unit for a carb'd car, should hook up to the existing lines. If not, replacement lines are cheap. Pop the crossfire intake off and sell it to pay for a Chinese aluminum intake and get a 600cfm carb. The block should have provisions for a fuel pump.
Get a replacement tank and sending unit for a carb'd car, should hook up to the existing lines. If not, replacement lines are cheap. Pop the crossfire intake off and sell it to pay for a Chinese aluminum intake and get a 600cfm carb. The block should have provisions for a fuel pump.
Certainly not easier than having it towed to the crusher, but way easier than a full engine swap or figuring out what the previous owner did and undoing it.
"True dual" exhaust is known to be a MAJOR can of worms on these cars. Notoriously difficult to make it fit and work right. There simply isn't enough space in certain places. Either the craftsmanship has to be exquisitely excellent, kinda like that fuel pump installation and tank modification are, or it ends up being a low-hanging disaster that drags on driveways and tears itself off and actually flows worse than an off-the-shelf good-quality single kit.
Long-tube headers are the same way. The regions that they have to route through are just too small. There are only a couple of such options available, for that reason; they are expensive, and installing them tends to be ... invasive. Headers for any other chassis don't fit right, and if somebody took that route, there's no telling what they did to graunch them in there. Although, looking at the fuel pump installation and tank plumbing, I can guess.
Frankly, I'd have to see a photo of the car from underneath, to believe that it ACTUALLY has either of those things. And if it does, more than likely (again looking at the fuel pump installation and quality of tank modification) it needs to be ripped completely off and redone ANYWAY.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the transmission. Since CFI only came with auto, it was a 200C, originally; one of the steamingest buckets of elephant plop GM ever released. It was VERY popular back in the day to replace that with a Turbo 350, which is a direct drop-in, except for the torque arm, for which the 350 never had provisions. There used to be solutions for that, some better than others; some quite good in fact, and some, well, NOT. I'd need to see photos of it to be able to tell how they did it, and I'm betting that it either still has the 200C in it (in which case it's fornicated and that's probably why it was for sale), or that the 350 is installed with the same degree of professionalism and pride of workmanship and overall show-quality excellence as those other things we've already seen.
Put it on Facebook Marketplace or Craig's List and sell it for what ever you can get out of it. Get out while you can.
The more you tell us about this thing, the more I agree with this. If what you're telling us is true, you've got a mess on your hands that you'll probably NEVER be able to de-hackify to the extent that you can actually DRIVE it. Make it somebody else's problem. Trust me when I tell you, there's ALWAYS A Greater Fool out there somewhere, no matter how bad you think something is; might take awhile to find em, butt THEY'RE OUT THERE. Send it down along that line and don't regret it. You WILL regret keeping it and trying to "restore" it. It's too far gone to become "a nice car" ever again, at least at any kind of cost that could compete with just going out and buying a car that isn't pre-trashed. You'll end up with an UNBELIEVABLY expensive useless garage ornament, AT BEST. A giant money pit that swallows whatever you throw down it and begs for more at every turn.
So, not long-tubes since the driver's side collector would exit somewhere behind the bell housing thereby rendering the crossover in the stock location under the oil pan impossible, and about 2" or maybe 2¼" pipe...
actually flows worse than an off-the-shelf good-quality single kit.
It's a CONSIDERABLY neater installation than I was expecting, though, except for the 10 lbs or whatever, of U-bolts. Most of the crush bends aren't even too dreadfully brutal.
The car has definitely been sitting around for awhile. Any idea why that is?
So, all the history I know of this car is that it was originally white with Daytona decals, owned by someone here in Southeast Idaho, it eventually made its way to Utah, where it was painted with flames (which you can kinda see under the purple paint), then some highschool kid here in Blackfoot, Idaho, bought it as a project car in about November of last year, but then went on a mission. At that point, it was sold to me. And, now it sits here in Pocatello, Idaho.
[QUOTE=exiled350;6554747]Do you have anyone that knows what they're doing or are you in it by yourself? Easiest way to get on the road would be to drop the tank and stitch that sardine can back together. Get a replacement tank and sending unit for a carb'd car, should hook up to the existing lines. If not, replacement lines are cheap. Pop the crossfire intake off and sell it to pay for a Chinese aluminum intake and get a 600cfm carb. The block should have provisions for a fuel pump.
A am pretty much doing it by myself. My dad is helping a little in any way he can but we both have minimal project car experience
Well that's gonna be one hell of a way to learn. Thankfully there are tons of resources available online and most parts are easy to source. I got pretty lucky, my dad was a mechanic so I learned all this stuff young. Now I'm somewhere between a mechanic, engineer, and software developer and my kid had been wanting a project car since she was like 14. I know all about other peoples projects and what they're capable of, that's how she ended up with a $12k IROC instead of a $6000 look at all the upgrades screaming deal. Live and learn, gotta start somewhere.
The photos are not completely revealing, but those that are provided do not show an oxygen sensor screwed into one of the pipes. Then again, that's often on the pilot's side, and the photo showing the insulation on the intake doesn't reveal that angle. That would make operation of the EFI pretty tough.
The photo does seem to show a mechanical fuel pump and inline filter, so the spaghetti pickup in the tank is at least a little more viable (short-term).
I'm with Tom, that car looks pretty savable to me. Of course, he changes induction systems more frequently than I change my underwear and I'll pull a motor in a gravel driveway so maybe we're both crazy.
Id think about what you're up for. Do you wanna take the time to figure out if the crossfire works or do you wanna move on from that system and do something else. I wouldn't rush dropping the tank till you know what direction you go. If you don't need emissions a standalone efi setup is the move and pretty simple. If you want to mess w the crossfire, you need to see if it fires over and then will it run. Who knows, you may be able to stick a fuel pump in and it will run fine. I doubt it but also doubted the quality of the dual exhaust!
