Got a slight problem.

Did a cam swap on an '86 TA. We finally fired it up last night.

First couple of times it didn't want to start. We had to advance the distributor twice in order to get it to catch and run. The guy working the gas pedal was having a terrible time keeping it at a steady RPM.

After about two minutes the y-pipe was glowing bright orange all the way down to the cat. Last I checked, that's fuel-air mixture continuing to combust coming out the exhaust port.

What could be causing that?

 

Prolly stuck the dist. in a tooth off. Have you stuck a timing light on it yet?

Have you checked the valve lash yet?

 

Running lean most likely.

 

Valve lash was checked.

I don't think it's a lean issue. Y-pipes just do not glow bright orange all the way down to the cat from lean exhaust. Header primaries might glow a dull red, yes, but this is WAY beyond that.

Jester, I've never understood the whole "tooth off" issue. That only positions the rotor relevant to the camshaft, which should be correctable by rotating the distributor (which turns the cap but not the rotor). Timing is always the relative position between the cap and the rotor; the actual position of the rotor shouldn't really matter. Well, I guess if you car which direction the cap points, but I don't and never have. Am I missing something here?

What are the chances that the distributor is 180* out and the plug is firing on the exhaust stroke?

 

the whole "tooth off" issue
what happens is that some vechicles don't have adjustable distributers (there's a pin) and you put in the distibuter 'one tooth' off. this in turn messes up your fuel injection and timing; and your car runs like crap.
there are also injection systems where the fuel injector pulses are set by the timing. too retarded, and your headers glow red.

i don't think either of these apply to you. though i think it is important to note that the orientation of the distributer is said to be important in lubing the upper part of the shaft and possibley some other stuff. you want the dist oriented as it would have come from the factory. i would say vacuum advance pointing forward, but you probably don't have one.

i'm going to assume you have a carb, given your year. more info in the future would be helpful. when you took off your old carb, it probably got inverted, jostled around, turned upside down. this probably caused your float to stick and pour tons of unspent fuel down the exhaust. there is too much fuel to burn in the combustion process. it is continuing to burn as it is pushed out your exhaust ports and down your headers. hence the red glow from the extra heat. i had the same problem, except i would describe the exhaust as cherry red.
check your float level (easier on a holley) and see if your plugs are getting wet or carbon fouled (they will burn clean again).
Jess

 

I'd agree that putting the distributor a tooth off can be corrected by spinning the cap. The car wouldn't start if it was 180 degrees off, though. I'm gonna go with too much fuel and maybe incorrect timing, but telling us how the exhaust is and how you actually set the timing could help in the future.

 

It's not my car. It's an 86 Trans Am w/TPI, formerly with the famous "peanut" cam. It does have a coil in cap distributor just like my 84, though (well, not just like, but close enough).

I've seen glowing orange and I've seen glowing red. This car has the stock exhaust manifolds and the y-pipe was glowing bright orange from the ends of both manifolds all the way down to the cat. I've heard of header primaries glowing dull red from running lean or having the timing excessively retarded. Not the entire y-pipe!

Obviously it could be any number of things, I'm sure you know how much crap has to come off of these cars to do a cam swap. The cam was installed straight up and dot-to-dot (cam dot at 6 o'clock, crank dot at 12 o'clock). New timing chain.

Timing was set by bringing the #1 cyl to TDC on the compression stroke and pointing the rotor at the #1 cyl. The cap was then bolted on so the #1 plug boot was in line with the rotor. That SHOULD have been firing at very close to TDC on the compression stroke, but the car would NOT start like that. I then rotated the cap quite a bit and then it finally started. I can't for the life of me remember which way I rotated it while sitting at my desk at work, though. Which way does the rotor turn when the motor is running, clockwise or CCW?

#1 on the compression stroke is piston at TDC and both valves closed, right?

 

yes #1 both valves are closed, rotate the motor until the intake valve opens and just closes, that's tdc, hmm the manifolds dont glow? but the y-pipe does? that's weird, is it throwing codes? sounds like timing to me, when you aligned the cam dot towards the crank, 6' oclock and the crank at 12 o'clock that's actually #6 TDC, so you would have to rotate the motor 180 degrees for #1 to be TDC, first remove the valve cover, rotate the motor until the #1 intake valve opens and then closes, (both valves should be closed) then check your damper on the crank the line should be around 0 on the timing tab, then check where the rotor is pointing too, should be #1

 

Yup, no glow from the manifolds. I imagine they would have had the car run long enough, but probably the thicker cast iron hadn't had a chance to heat up enough. I'm just guessing though.

They were certainly hot enough to set the oil that dripped on to them on fire. That's when I nailed the thing with the fire extinguisher and had him cut the motor off.

 

just out of curiosity, what are the specs of the cam you put into it?

does the exhaust smoke at all? if so, what color?

does the car happen to have nitrous or anything, and maybe the nitrous is spraying?

was the cam degree'd? if the exhaust valve was opening way early, it could be blowing still-combusting gas out the exhaust.....

how bad is it running? Is it hitting on 7 or 8 most of the time or just barely enough (1 or 2) to keep spinning?

 

Cam specs:

210/216 .440/.454 114 LSA (not sure about the LSA, it's not on the cam card)

Cam was not degreed.

Didn't see any obvious smoke out the tailpipe.

No nitrous.

The guy working the pedal while I was under the hood says it was pretty tough keeping the motor running. It was oscillating back and forth from 2000 to 2700 or so. He says it almost felt like it wanted to flood out with steady pressure on the gas, so he had to keep feathering it.

I'd say it's probably running on 6 or so level of roughness. Certainly not just 1 or 2.

 

well i would double check everything, start with making sure all the plug wires are on the correct cylinder, then double check that you are at #1 TDC and the rotor pointing to #1 it should start that way, also i noticed it's TPI, i dont know a lot about TPI, but check the fuel pressure, that cam isnt that big, so it has to be something with the timing. or the wires on backwards

 

I don't know much about TPI either. I let the guy who does put it back together.

I plan on triple checking the plug wires and the timing. Hopefully we haven't wiped the cam already.

I hate flat tappet cams.

 

Hey Ron I didn't know you had another acct on here. I guess you aren't using 84ZZ4 since your 84 w/ ZZ4 isn't moving ... :-)

Just to clear something up, when we installed the timing chain we had it dot to dot, 6 o'clock on the cam gear 12 o'clock on the crank, then we rotated the engine until both were at 12 o'clock (should be #1 tdc) since we knew we'd have to time it later.

So when they inserted the distributor and lined up the #1 terminal, it should have been damn near TDC on #1.

Also the car definitely won't start with the distrib 180 degrees out. Been there done that :-). And I believe the rotor turns clockwise while the engine is running.

 

No, my other account is banned. Dirk didn't appreciate my comments when the board went down.