OK, I got a buddy, Bryon, that I used to always race. He has an 89 Lincoln Mark VII and he talked alot till I finally told him all or nothing and we both put some cash down and I smoked him in my little stock 92 LO3 Camaro. Since then he hasnt raced and now says he is looking at buying a Grand National, 87 I believe. He says how fast it is going to be, and so on, paying like 4600-5000 for it. So, he talks how he'll smoke me stock and such. What Im wondering, is how fast are these cars STOCK and such. Reason I ask is because I know the LO3 has no chance and truthfully neither does the Berly. However, I am planning on building an 87 IROC L98 up, putting 2000 into the car over the winter. So, what will it take to beat a GN? ALot? little? I know L98's are low 14's cars but Im wanting to do some good on that budget. I know im going to get some new exhaust and such, long tube headers, but what about cams, working with the intake, new injectors, etc.? THe IROC already has the 3.42 Posi gears. I just need to know what it'll take to beat the Grand National. And if I cant, then what? BTW, Im not looking into buying new heads, id like to use the pre-existing heads. I've NEVER taken heads off a motor or messed with heads, so a respectable machine shop will be due up, so, will the stock heads, after say, being ported, polished, 3 angle valve job and 1.6 roller rockers, be any use at all? Or should I look at Vortecs and throw the L98 heads in a pile of car parts? Im looking at some solid 13's out of the L98 and maybe even a high 12 second pass perhaps. Thanks.

 

My guess is that a grand national for 5-6 grand is one hell of deal or POS.

Any way, 87 is last year and the best in my opinion. Lots of power. GNX's ran mid low 13's but regular GN's are high 13's if not LOW 14's. somewhere around 250hp and 360 torque. similar to vette tpi's

oh and they are about same weight as thirdgen too.

2000 can be applied in many ways to an L98. i would suggest torque converter like 2800stall, good suspension for launches, exhaust and upgraded TPI system or other intake.

I have about 3g's in my car and running 14 flats with untouched L98. thats shocks/springs/stall/tranny rebuilt/headers/catback

You can save on tranny cost if its good shape and doesnt need rebuilt. that will nock off about a grand. Also 140 for header coating isnt always necessary either. LOL

A vortec head and intake combo with SLP runners ported to hell with mild cam and gears would run high 13's. that can be done for less than 2grand if shop around.

Else just spray it---150 shot and you got low 13's high 12's.

 

A good running GN from 86 or 87 is tuff to beat stock if the driver is even only a bit familiar with it. I had some friends in the 90s that used to tinker with 'em. Mid 13's stock if you tweak fp and practice your spool up at launch with some brake pedal manipulation. For only a few hundred bucks of exhaust and fuel parts they go 12's.

 

ive heard 11s with a boost controller. but yea for that cheap the gn maybe on its last miles. if not ima steal it from him
jon

 

but guys remember
"the thirdgen always wins. even if the thirdgen loses it still wins"


doesn't that apply here? and come on it's only a 6

 

That's tuff talk comin' from someone with scrambled rotors!! Anyway, what do you think made the 89 20th anniversary T/A such a demon? That's how the 3rd gen wins that race, they nabbed Buick power!! I'm pretty sure it was the fastest stock 3rd gen.

Oh, yeah... don't take it personally about the rotors. My best friend back in CA has a 91 rx7. After he continually lost to my beat up 87 formula I eventually made him a believer, too!!

 

hey man no hard feelings
I've been around the block a time or two here and have had many v8 rammed in places they don't belong without using molybendium lub and I'm still around.
and yes I'm a believer just like the fact unlike your car I can go grab groceries and then go home and mow the lawn without ever getting otu of my car unlike you

thing I'm shocked about is there is a TTA around here and I remember seeing a GN run at the track around here. low 12's quiet enough to hear the wind comming off the car at 100 yard but yet not hear the exhuast at all.... things are crazy

 

I do believe the TTA was the fastest F-body produced till the LS1

 

i dont know if id say that or not .....

look back at the late 60's camaro's when you ordered a yenko camaro and got the 427 in it ....that i believe would smoke a stock tta considering both were stock ....

 

true but those kind of cars were special order from aftermarket kinda companies. Not reg production cars.

 

okay well how about a C.O.P.O. camaro with a 427 .......

those were cars that you could get from a dealer not a special dealer made car...but regardless the tta isnt the fastest f body ever made .....

there were alot of fbodys made that could walk over it ....you got to take into consideration everything from the late 60's and early70's

 

maybe i spoke too soon. Those 427 cars were quick and with modern day tires, could run some real impressive times. lots of power but heres a link for ya.

50 Fastest Muscle Cars

ZL1 camaro at 430 hp was low low 13's car like LS1's
Forgot about the 73 TA 455! Lots of torque running 13.5's. That is awesome.

 

The big problem with the early F cars is that in STOCK form, they were on skinny little plastic tires, so they would probably still loose to the TTA, but not for lack of power. You guys are diverging from the topic.

IF the GN is in good shape, it will not sell for 5 grand. If they have high mileage and are not well maintained, they can be trouble. However, these guys are right on in that in stock form, they run very well. With minor mods, they are amazingly quick. With serious mods, you can go to the grocery store in an 8 second GN.

If your buddy is clueless, most of the standard hot rodding tricks DO NOT WORK on a turbo car. Driving skill is also very important. If he thought a Mark VII was fast, and loves to shoot off his mouth, he probably is all that and nothing else.

Troy
So Cal

 

hey thanks for that site, How come the Zl1 has 430hp and runs low 13s? When the Ls1 has 325hp and does the same?

 

Biasply radials are why! They are skinny and look like ***** of plastic. Not the way i would plant 430hp

 

now imagine how this car would do with a good set of meaty radials under it .....

if it ran that good with bias ply tires

 

I bought my 86 hard top grand nat for $3k it was in fair condition and have the recipts to prove it....230hp/330tq...it ran a mid 13s I also have a 88 gta and the grand nat is hella faster in almost every aspect...

they launch pretty hard to 3.42 gear with an 8.5 rear end

I wouldn't race him until you are sure you run about a flat 13 and make sure you don't give him a chance to get any modds

 

with the L98, it will be fun for alittle while, but a GN will out run you down the stretch. A bit more power than what L98 can produce.

Go ahead and race him, but dont expect much. he will trash talk and has right to. He is now legitamately fast now. LOL



calico you got a GN? Damn thats nice and for 3K thats a steal!! Are you sure its a GN and not a Type T regal? Or its in decent condition? Cuz most I see are over 7-8grand and thats pretty ratty. LOL

 

what engine did the 1990 firehawk have in it I know it had a 35o but which one?

 

I my gn dealer has one that runs 11s for $8k if your interested 70k miles...let me know

no you cant confuse a gn with a t-type....also the grand national is a package like a z06...all turbo regals of the same year have the same engines...the grand nats had front buckets that have a black and light grey cloth, all black paint job, special 15x8" wheels, grand nat badging, a rear lip spoiler, a lsd posi 3.42, 8.5 rear end and a special suspension. but with that came weight so the t-types are a little quicker

 

The T-types are slower than the Grand National, not quicker.

 

Different way of rating HP. Also the ZL1 picked up 125 HP by uncorking its exhaust and ran easy mid to low 11's with slicks.

 

I do believe that 430 is severely underated. More like 500hp

 

stu-lol come now...I'm new to this board NOT TO CARS!

1.84-85 turbo regals are called hot air....(non-intercooled)
85 grand national-3.8 v6 turbo-200hp/300tq
85 T-type -3.8 v6 turbo-200hp/300tq

2.All turbo regals of the same year have the same engine/tranny/ecm/ect! No differance...

3. The differance however can be found outside! The grand nats only come in Black and the regular t-types can come in any color. Also grand nats come with concert audio, climate control, power windows, power seats, heated mirriors and defroster and many other options that weighted these cars down! Not all t-types have these options and so are considerable LIGHTER so are a better choice for a drag car but not nessarily for and cruiser.

If you don't belive me go over to the buick boards ask them or search lc2(all turbo regals engine code)

ps my friend jeff has a high milage t-type for sale for $3k cash runs a stock 13.5

 

Calico is dead on! It doesn't take much $$$ to put a Turbo Regal in the 11's. The T-Types are quicker than the GN's but the GNX owns all!

 

 

fastest of all non-GNX turbo regals was the 87' WE4 Ttype

 

i was looking at this site, and they say more then once that the LS1 is a 350, but i belive it is avtually a 346ci...just a technicality.

 

exactly the we4 was a special light weight option with aluminun drum brakes and other options...oh yeah another friend of mine has one for $4k....DAMN I GOT TURBO BUICK CONNECTS...if anyones interested hit me up I can get his#

 

Wait a minute. Is there a differnce between a GNX and just a regular GN? If so, I was talking about the GNX being faster, my mistake.

 

I was thinking of putting a lc2 drivetrain in my gta but for the money I would be spending in getting the parts from a gran nat I could buy a bbs turbo kit and rebuild my 350tpi for a forced induction application, run 10lbs of boost and be faster.

 

stu

The gnx was a special edition grand nat with a special build up by mclearen...kinda like the zr1 vettes build up by lotus...the gnx was only made in 1987 and had a special trick suspension set-up with a ladder bar...16x8 wheels...look like black gta wheels, ceramic coated turbo impeller and improved electronics with a hi-flo dual exhaust...made about 280hp/400lbs tq(very rare only 576 made)

gn-all black aka a highly optioned t-type 84-87...all were sfi and 86-87 were intercooled...also have front buckets

t-type any turbo regal 84-87

we4 a special light weight race version of the t-type alittle more than 3k lbs...

the times vary from 13s-15.5 depends on what year and trim you have...

 

The GNX also had the TTA intercooler(well, the TTA had the GNX intercooler lol), a ceramic coated impellar in the turbo, a different chip...that helped make the power difference.

Still not as fast as the TTA though

 

The GNX was only made in 1987 and i hear it runs 13.1's-13.3's

http://www.buickgnx.com/

 

yea the zl1 copo nickey yenko etc all were faster than the tta but the tta could turn after the 1/4 was up and are alot easier to live with for day to day driving not like you would use these cars as dds but with teh tta you can actually talk in the car. and in 30 yrs the tta will prob be worht just as much as the super cars. just as the zl1 4th gens will be worth more than some mansions in yrs to come.
jon

 

fly89gta

I dunno from my experinces the tta runs even with a we4<gnx

 

nah, the WE4 was about a mid 13 second car (a few tenths faster than a GN)

ive heard of at least one TTA breaking into the 12s stock

 

It's all about the tune of the car.

I've seen GN's STOCK run 15's and seen them mid 13's.

ON AVERAGE the TTA will run low 13's

 

tpivette89-a stock tta ain't breakin 12's sorry...low 13s yes 12s no

 

tta vs gn would be a good race

 

I would like to see it but they say theoretically the TTa should win becasue of better aerodynamics..dunno though becasue when they tested them both the Grand nat won in all the straight line races..so its anyones guess

 

No it didn't. Pick up the Motor Trend issue where they tested head to head. The TTA couldn't drive it. Then on the third race he finally learned how to launch it and blew the GN's doors off lol.

I've NEVER EVER seen a bone stock GN dyno what the TTA's are putting to the wheels.

 

QUOTE]No it didn't. Pick up the Motor Trend issue where they tested head to head. The TTA couldn't drive it. Then on the third race he finally learned how to launch it and blew the GN's doors off lol. [/QUOTE]

they soulda switched drivers...everything Iv'e learned says they make the same power #s... I know alot about the lc2 engine and worked on many turbo buicks and owned an 86...Are you sure your not over exaggerrating about the TTA because you like and model you car after it? please tell me what a TTa engine has in it that a grand nat doesn't? Blew the doors...isn't that a stretch...both cars are low 13 sec cars neither is blowing the doors off either...lol...go to the turbo buick boards where this topic has been beat to death...the tta is technically slightly faster due to better aerodynamics...

honestly now where am I gonna "pick up" a motor trend issue from 1989?...

 

Show me a GN that puts down 300hp to the wheels BONE stock. Isn't happening. No disrespect the to the GN..I'll be owning one in the near future but the TTA is faster, case closed. The TTA and GN motors ARE NOT exactly the same.

The TTA has better flowing heads, a more efficient intercooler and a different chip(though it doesn't make that much of a difference).

I'm not biased, I love everything and anything that's powered by a turbo buick.

I'll see if I can dig up the issue of motor trend.

 

how can a gn put down 300hp to the wheels when its rated at a conservative 250hp?! Hell the TTA ain't makng a bone stock 300hp ether..maybe 300lbs tq but hp hell no!

I'm sorry man you seem like a really cool guy, generally knowledgeable (heck I even wanna add you to my buddy list )but your slightly biased and indenial...

Aren't we 2 typical turbo buick guys...were on a predominatly 350cid+ v8 message board discussing lc2s...lol

 

QUESTION real quick

Low 13 second cars? uhhhhh, they are rated at 250 hp and 350 lb ft torque!! Thats the same as L98 speed density vettes and they pushed high 13's at best.

I once thought GN's and TTA's were real fast but now after seeing the power ratios, i am not sure i believe that anymore. Probly high 13's at best for both of them. TTA should be better cuz isnt it lighter by a bit?

 

yea, i didnt think 13's sounded right either.

 

ummm how to explain..its not so much the amount of power... its when you make it...very low end...Its about staying in amost constant boost with little lag and excellent traction...TTA and a fully loaded grand nat weight near the same...the average to be expected from both cars is a 13.5...but that was brand new...17 years later who knows...also remember that when the grand nats came out they came with 175/45/r15s or something like that, and they acomplished a 13.5, so when the guys put drag rads on them they get a traction improvement and better times.

ps and they "Blew the doors" off the tpi vettes...Its one of those things that really hard to explain to some one that doesn't/didn't own a car powered by an lc2...

 

yeah low end power in LC2 is great but so is TPI. Even then, vettes are lot lighter still, and that difference in power at different rpms wont make up for the fact the vette is lighter and matches the power.

Are the LC2's underrated? Thats the only way i could justify it.

dont get me wrong here, i love GN's and TTA's but just trying to get the facts clear here, cuz i been a longtime believer in the 13.5 timeslips but now it aint so clear. LOL

 

thats it orr89rocz ill draw you in to the lc2 by hook or by crook lol

naw they both are definatly underrated...on paper it says 250hp where in real time it makes near 300hp...nothing can make more power on paper than the vette...its bad for bussiness and we both know that lol

why is the 88 vette so much faster than the 88 gta?

oh yeah you would be surprised how light the low optioned grand nats are...remember they are just a 6