now i know that normally a GTA doesnt stand a chance against a car like the intercooled 86/87 Grand Nationals. however, the GN involved in this race is an 85... which means no intercooler. could one of our fbodies keep up with a hotair turbo Buick? thats what i want to find out. heres the mods on both cars:

85' Grand National:
- 2.5" downpipe (factory DP was a measly 2")
- solid uppipe
- 2.5" straightpipe catback
- 30# injectors
- AFPR
- hotwired SyTy fuel pump
- 160* stat
- K&N 9" cone filter
- Kenne Bell chip

88' GTA 350 TPI:
- Dynomax 3" catback pipe w 3" Ultraflow muffler
- 160* stat
- TB bypass

both cars run very well and are in an excellent state of tune. i believe the hotair GN ran somewhere in the mid - low 15s stock, while the GTA was mid - high 14s stock. boost on the Buick will be kept at the stock level (10 - 12lbs) because i dont have an adjustable wastegate for it yet. which one do you think will come out on top?

 

The GN should have the advantage here. That GTA is stock. Those "mods" are worthless. Regardless, if that GTA is anything like your TPI Vette, it should run a full second quicker than any other TPI GTA ever with similar mods, so I change my mind: GTA wins!

 

it oughtta be a good race. my money is on the GTA though.

 

geez! you still think my Vette was a freak? there are a few guys on corvetteforum.com with setups similar to what mine had and are running the same times mine did or better. some of them are:

- Vic89
- TA
- MadMic (hes on this site as well)

alls my Vette had was a front ypipe, rear ypipe, 2500 stall converter, DRs, and some free and cheap mods. best run was 13.16 at 103.79 with a 1.76 60ft

keep in mind, when it comes to Vettes, 95% of their drivers have no idea how to properly run a car down the 1/4 mile. this is why you see so many TPI Vettes running mid - high 14s stock. these cars were all about launching... if you screwed that up, kiss the whole run goodbye

anyway, back to the original topic... i thought the GTA might have a chance due to the GNs stock turbo (which is smaller than a 86/87 unit) and stock boost levels. not to mention the dinky 215/65R15 tires vs the GTAs big 245/50ZR16s

 

Just bustin your ***** a little. I've still yet to run into one that can run decent against me on the street, even with more mods than what you had.

And you made no mention of the junk tires on the GN. Is that even the stock size?

 

My 1988 GTA with quite a few more mods than that ran a 15.1 at 90mph. At the time my tranny was in pretty bad shape and I couldn't launch very well to save my life. The first time I tried to stall the car up I ended up spinning at the line before the final amber. Anywho, a stock 88 GTA ran somewhere from mid to high 15s and I don't know what a hot air gn ran but I know they weren't that fast but weren't slow either. My vote is on the GN but I think it also really comes down to a drivers race. Key point in the race being the launch. I think whoever has the better launch might have the race.

~Roger

 

the tires arent in bad shape, just a bit small for the given application. im not sure if theyre the stock size or not, its what came on the car. ive got a set of 235/60R15s on my 84' Z28 that im thinking of swapping over to the GN. thats still probably not enough tire for a decent launch though

is your car a 305? those times would be on par with a 5.0L GTA. my car is a 350, and the trans is brand new. also, i managed mid 1.7 60fts out of my old 89' Vette, so im no stranger to launching effectively

 

I live in Newark, so if you want to hand me over the keys to one of them with you in the other we can test it out

 

a few months ago didnt you want to race my GN after you were done modding your Formula a bit? would you still be interested?

 

My car was a 305 and is now a 350. That 15.1 was with the 350 and I know run what ya brung and hope you brung enough but I think my very tired and broken tranny may have along with my mediocre launching technique caused that run. If you're in the GTA then my money is on the GTA. Especially if you're cutting 1.7 60's in that vette.

~Roger

 

GRAND NATIONAL baby! one of the greatest American cars of all time!!
No, seriously. GN.

 

It should be a good race but I think the GN will edge out. Hot air cars ran mid 15's stock and those mods should take a second(or more) off those times.

 

Yea, that was me...right now I'd be content to have my formula running, much less be faster than anything. She probably won't be out till mid spring

 

My vote goes to the GTA provided it's in good running condition.

 

whats up with it? i remember you said you were putting in better gears i think... did something go wrong with that?

i know what you mean though. my GN has been apart since October. im hoping sometime next month ill finally have it back together

 

ya my vote goes to the gta. i own a 91 gta and all i got is a corvette torque converter and some injectors and it kicks some a@@.

 

The upgrades consist of gears, intake and headers. Gears aren't the issue since I'm putting in a whole new rear, right now its the intake swap. Didn't run into a snag except it went and got real cold on me and I have no garage to work in. As it sits the new intake is on there but not bolted down so I gotta get back out there and re-do the gaskets before I bolt it down. My friend also just bought a nice 87 firebird with a heads and cammed 355 TPI which we are trying to get to pass emissions. I'm about ready for spring now...

 

my moneys on the GN

 

Grand National. Warning! Boost is potentially more addictive then crack.

 

Not when it's not intercooled

 

UGH, Hot air! My money is on the GTA. I really doubt the non-intercooled GN is as fast as an 86-87 would be, actually, I know it isn't. It's gonna be a close race, but my money is still on the GTA.

 

GN, hotair or not will own your GTA...

 

GTA! Hot air GN's are sloooooooow.

 

Exactly.

 

I'll have to disagree with you. We have guys around here that run mid 13's with those mods on hot air cars. That's with race gas though. Figure pump gas and take a hefty conservative 1 second off that and you'll be low-mid 14's.

It should be close but the GN should take it. Especially if he knows how to launch the car.

 

i guess boost can only be turned up when you have an intercooler? no you cant run upwards of 20psi on the stock turbo like the intercooled cars, but lots of hotair guys have run 18psi on their stock turbos WITHOUT race gas
haha, tell that to the numerous people who have runs 12s and 11s in them NON intercooled. Lee Thompson has run as fast as 10.7 in his hotair STILL running without an intercooler

 

He will beat your GTA, I got $20 paypal bux that says so

 

if both drivers launch equally, then i agree with you. i think the GTA only has a chance if the GN driver blows his launch.

however, alot of people here dont seem to think so. dont underestimate the hotair buicks, they can be fast too

 

Thanks Capt. Obvious. Do you not see the GTA I had in my sig? I know what kind of boost numbers you can run without race gas and without an intercooler. I was referring to the hot air GN we're discussing in this thread.

 

We'll see....I still think the GTA will pull this one out

...and what do you know LS1 boy???? Oh wait...

 

It will prove interesting. Let us know how it plays out.

 

 

sure i saw it... in fact ive seen it in there for the last couple years. what i was refering to was the following post:
followed by your post:
this led me to believe that you thought because the intake charge wasnt intercooled that it was impossible to turn up boost higher than the stock level without doing damage

if that wasnt your meaning, what was?

 

Forget it. Not going to explain anything because it will turn into a pissing match and ruin the thread. No that's not what I meant.

 

Sounds like the '85 GN is pretty much stock.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't those non-turbo cars come with, like 200 hp??

 

yep... 200hp/300ftlbs in the 84/85 version

the only other thing i can think of is that you meant no matter how high the boost goes on a hotair car, itll still be slow

BTW, im not going to get all bent out of shape because you think pre 86/87 GNs are slow. the only thing that bothers me is when people say they absolutely CANNOT be made to go fast. people have gone 12s and 11s with them (although it takes ALOT more mods to do so than the intercooled cars)

back to the topic... since my GTA probably wont be running for a few months, what do you think the hotair GN will need to run at the track to claim it can beat a stock 5.7L GTA with a catback?

 

Where did I say they're slow? Where did I say they couldn't be made fast? Stop putting words in my mouth because I never, EVER said they couldn't be made fast or that you can't turn up the boost. Reading comprehension is good.

Just drop it.

 

i never put words in your mouth. you agreed with people who posted about them being slow. thats the same as calling them slow right?

i was simply trying to figure out what you meant by your previous comment... but i guess you dont care to explain so nevermind

 

The only thing I agreed with was the comment that someone said they weren't as fast as the 86-87 intercooled ones

 

I said the non-intercooled ones aren't as fast as the intercooled ones. they dont respond to mods as well either. Never once did I say they were slow, because they're not! I was stating that because the GN is hot air, its gonna be a closer race than an 86-87 gn. BTW, I still give it to the GTA.

 

all of the above is true, thats why i was pairing up these 2 cars. a intercooled GN would mop the floor with a stock GTA. its not that statement i had a problem with

what i really wanted to know is why turning up the boost on a hotair buick would NOT be addictive as it would be on an 86/87 model... oh well

but back to the original topic: so what E/T & mph would the hotair GN have to run to claim it can beat a stock 5.7L GTA with only a catback?

 

My guess would be that intercooled boost is more efficient and makes more power. If you boost a hot air set up too high it will eventually no longer be helping performance bacause the air will bo so hot, it will promote detonation. I think thats what he was getting at.

 

i know u can find all the info on our cars. but i hope its alright to send this link bout the gn. it should help the fued. look at both the specs on the gn and the 3rd gen from our page.


http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...national.shtml

 

Sounds more like a bunch of people with nothing more than alot of hot air

Just f'n already.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love GN's but there is no comparing the Hot-Air and Intercooled, stock for stock. I've embarrassed many a Hot-Air GN at the track. Mostly stockers running mid-high 15's but Hot-Air cars just the same. If I bought a GN that wasn't intercooled that would be one of my first mods. I'm fully aware of the fact that there are some quick Hot-Air cars but what's the point of not running an intercooler when it's available and would make a huge difference?

 

this is true of all turbo equipped cars, not just non-intercooled ones. once you reach certain boost #s (depending on the turbo), youre simply heating up the intake charge so much you negate any performance gains the extra boost should have provided. i believe the stock hotair turbo was good for 18psi... after that turning up the boost any higher is a waste. regardless, turning up the boost from the stock 12psi setting to 16psi should still make the car faster and more fun to drive. the opinion i quoted earlier stated this would not be true
i would except the GTA is currently down and wont be running for about a month or so. if both cars were running, this would be a race STORY instead of a question
im not trying to compare a hotair to a intercooled GN. like you said there is no comparison. when maxed out, intercooled buicks are running 7s and 8s while the hotairs are in the 10s. what i was trying to do is see if a 5.7L GTA would be more of a challenge for a hotair regal, cause its obviously not for the 86/87 version
some people just like to be different (like the people on this site who mod 305s when a 350 would respond to those same mods much better). i look upon it as a challenge to see how far i can make the hotair setup go. besides, you see quick intercooled buicks all the time. a fast hotair would be unique

 

I understand the challenge part but you can throw that out the window once the combination is tapped out and you start losing races. I'm aware of what you're comparing. I only said that in reference to my prior statement about Hot Air GN's being slow. If both cars were totally bone stock, the GN would get owned bad. Honestly, I don't see those mods helping that much but we'll just have to see.

 

Did this race ever happen? Was curious how the 85GN ran?

 

My GN


Wanna race

 

holy old thread