so on friday i was out hanging out with my buddy who owns a 95 or 96 eagle talon tsi awd turbo. as of now he just got it maybe a week ago at most and it has a nice still upgraded clutch from previous owner it also has the boost upped to 14Ibs on the stock turbo. my car only has a 2.5" catback, open element, gutted cat nothing special.

so we lined up he launched at 3k rpms and i was at 2500ish in second gear i pulled about half a car immediately then he sped by and he beat me by about 2 car lengths to 100.

second race he launches at 4500 rpms and i launch at 2300 maybe in second again this time he had the sweet spot and took off and beat me by about 5 6 car lengths.

moral to story is damn quick car for being pretty much stock but thats ok revenge comes next weekend when i roast him with me newely installed 125 shot of laughing gas

 

you going to launch on the bottle in second gear too?

 

Like I said in the Iroc Vrs Suby AWD thread...

GSX's are not to be toyed with when done right.
Just so you know if he gets DSM link and about 1500 in pars, you can have all the laughing gas you want it won't matter.

 

My co-worker went from mid 14's @ 95 with his '95 TSI to 12.8 @ 106 for less than $500. Very cheap and easy to mod!

 

Yeah, I agree. The GSX is not to be fooled with, as their very easy to mod (with excellent results). Rather than go with the laughing gas, why not get yourself a stall speed converter, and better rear cogs...?

 

If he got those he would still be slow as hell atleast with the gas he can take a full second off his time. Your not going to do that with a stall converter on a stock engine.

 

The problem though is the LO3's launch. Despite knocking off a full second off w/nitrous in the 1/4, he'll still be seeing the GSX's tail lights the entire way. At least with a good stall, and better gearing, he can try to match it's 60 foot on the street... IMO.

 

yea i know dsms are easy modded ive seen some street driven ones in the 9s and what not and theyre all in 12 13s but im all set up for spray and i paid a small price for it and im about to figure out where i stand next weekend. im gonna race an ls1 and find out

 

There still is no way a stall and gears is going to compare to 125 shot on a stock engine best bang for buck and you know it! Get the 125 shot now get the other stuff later. If you want to go quick fast and in a hurry for less nitrous is the way to go. I haven't even put gears nor a stall in my car yet and its able to run 13's on 2.73 gears, stock tranny and stall.

Sure the stall and gears do help a lot if he were to get 125 shot w/stall his car would be even faster. But out of the two combination the 125 would be the quickest way to get fast.

 

There is quite a big difference between a 327 w/HSR, in comparison with an anemic 305 w/TBI. Nitrous will obviously have a much better impact on your setup, as your not initially limited to begin with...

I'm not arguing the benefits of a good nitrous system, as I've ran it in the past, and was very pleased with the results. But to say that a stall speed converter is not as beneficial is completely ludicrous (do you have any idea of the differences in times, 1/4 mile wise, between a great, and poor sixty foot)? There is no way his LO3 can hang with a modded 4g63, even with NOS (and I seriously doubt he's planning on hitting it from a dead stop, especially if he's sane). At least with a stall, and better gearing (and better tires, of course), he'll consistently keep up with it on the street, from a dig...

 

funny ive done both of these mods as far as fun goes ill take both but bang for your buck i like the modded tranny an rear cogs youll feel it every time you put your foot in it then do the bottle you might even keep it straight an be able to hit the bottle sooner

 

Man will you please read and don't put words in my mouth I never said a converter/gears is not benefical nor did I say my car is running nitrous! Thats just raw power my car makes and thats what 125 shot will give his car. Nor did I say his car will beat the talon with the nitrous. But I will bet 125 shot up against stall/gears the 125 shot will win every time well atleast with me behind the wheel! ITS A LO3 what is stall and gears going to do with a engine that ain't making any power to begin with! Give the car power first then you worry about where its power band is.

 

.

 

Yes it will take both! You say bang for buck tranny and cogs but was your car ever a LO3? Which did you do first your engine or your tranny and gears?

 

The nitrous is going to make that L03 go plumb crazy as long as he updates the exhaust manifolds. The nitrous can get past the swirl port heads and peanut cam, but if it can't get out of the engine there's going to be issues. If the car has a posi now then nothing is going to compare with the spray dollar for dollar, even if he has 2.73 gears the nitrous will give him the torque to make those fast and not blow them off horribly on the street. A stall and gears would be great, but dollar for dollar nothings going to compete with that spray. Open up the exhaust with some good headers and 3in single or dual 2.5's and up your shot if you need to.

 

i personally agree with street lethal. Also the best part about his combination is that it works all the time, not just for a short span of like 4 secs.

 

Yes thats right that 170hp crank and about 90hp to the wheels will work all the time in a 3500lb car.

 

Okay, I'll retract the previous statement of, "to say that a stall speed converter is not as beneficial", to, "to imply that a stall speed converter isn't as beneficial as nitrous". How's that?

lilbowilson, maybe if you actually read what I wrote, you wouldn't get so defensive. I've owned an LO3, and am quite familiar with it's potential performance level. I'll reiterate, yes, I'm extremely pleased with nitrous performance. But again, we're talking about an LO3 beating a GSX, not what an LO3 can run in the quarter mile with nitrous....

With a stall speed, and gearing, he'll consistently keep up with him from stoplight to stop light (nitrous eventually runs out, not to mention not really being able to hit it off of the line, repeatedly). Like the post above had confirmed, the stall and gearing is always there. Nitrous will catapult the LO3 yes, but it's still not enough, alone, to edge out a GSX with a max of 15psi (using the stock turbo). At least matching the AWD with a good sixty foot, he can obtain some type of respect from the guy....

Lets not turn this into an arguement. We both have our opinions, and I more than respect yours. If you don't respect mine, thats okay (holds back tears)...

 

ok im gonna race the kid this weekend then ill let you all know the results of nitrous on my LO3 i have set up for the past week. at least itll stop all the arguing here

 

I'd have to say it's going to take more than gears and a stall to 60 ft. with even a stock AWD DSM. Even with the 340+ ft. lbs. I've got at the wheels, Vigilante converter, 3.23's, Limited Slip, Nitto DR's, SLP Adj. Torque Arm and the rest of my suspension mods, I'm not much up on a well driven stock AWD Talon or Eclipse. Once they start modding, forget it. The FWD cars are a totally different story.

 

The question here though is, what is your best sixty foot, with the mods you mentioned above? That alone will tell everyone what we need to know. Even an LO3 with gears, and stall, will have no chance against a modded GSX... but the LO3 will not be humiliated off the line. An experienced driver should honestly have no problem "matching" the GSX's sixty foot....

 

Also, I'm talking about something a little lower (higher, numerically) than your 3.23's out back....

 

Gear's and stall are necassary for being fast with a weak motor I agree with that there. However with nitous the only thing that's really necassary is free flowing exhaust and a posi (don't count on moving much with a 1 wheel peel). I've also never had anyone care if I 60 footed them, half the time when the runs over and I'm on the brakes they think they beat me beacause they end up ahead. There is one big advantage to having a killer 60 foot, when you jump out on someone that hard they usually panic and overpower the road. Race him 8th mile with spray and if you do really good go for the 1/4.

P.S. I used to do 2.0 60 foots with a stock L98 on street tires so that put me on par with alot of the Talons I've seen run in the 60 foots.

 

ya the talon is a bad car but you guys talk like these things are untouchable that just crazy if its a 11 sec car and your in the 14s adjust with lengths heads up is silly

 

you want bragging rights build a faster car

 

Where I'm from we adjust with nitrous jets

 

I definitely agree there, but by the time he hits the nitrous, the GSX already has a couple of car lengths. At least with a higher stall, and lower gear, he'll somewhat keep up in the beginning. Ultimately, he should attempt both mods that are in question here...

The majority of the EVO's, GSX's and TSI's that run here are very much into reaction times, as well as sixty foots. Heck, most spectators watch the first sixty feet of the race, then immediately turn there heads back to the burn out box to see who's racing next...

Exactly my point. Now, if you set up that L98 to launch appropriately, your 2.0 sixty foot would have dropped a great deal. Nitrous is great, especially on an LS1, but installing it on an LO3, so it can still be embarrassed by the GSX, is really not to clever to me. Now, if he swapped to an HSR system, then I'd say spray that GSX's @SS...

 

get the great 60 foot time then spray the hell out of

 

Without a doubt, posi would be a must...

 

I raced a GSX once that I beat by 1/4 of a car length. Car was pretty fast!!! I saw the guy two weeks later and the motor had blown with only 15,000 miles on it. Go figure but I guess he learned his lesson because he went out and bought a 02 WS6.

 

My best 60ft. is a 1.81. The problem I have right now is dead hooking with 17" DR's. I just don't feel I have enough sidewall so I just picked up some 15" ET Streets. That should solve the problem. Honestly, the co-worker I mentioned above was cutting lower 1.9 60 ft regularly when he was stock on junk dry rotted tires. There's no way an otherwise stock, full weight L03 with just gears and stall will cut a sub 2.0 60 ft. It just won't happen! The best I did with my stock 3.23 geared, L98 with limited slip was a 2.03. I'm not saying it's not possible with an L98 but we're talking 245 HP and 345 TQ. The torque difference is huge and that's what gets the car moving from a stop.

 

Amen to that! Tell him again Blu91Z28 PREACH to tha brotha! AMEN!

 

... and an otherwise stock LO3 with nitrous will? Your missing my point, in which he has a better chance of hanging (in fact matching with the proper setup) with a modded GSX throughout the sixty foot, then he would with spray. This is what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the LO3 is the preferred choice of all engine builders.

Your referring to peak torque numbers in reference to 345 foot pounds. Yes, torque gets you moving, but too much gets you spinning. Many 305's, stock (regardless if it were LG4, LB9 or LO3) had gotten the jump on L98's when we'd race way back when, stock. Too much torque can be a burden on the street, even on the track, when not prepped...

Getting back to the question concerning an LO3 running sub 2 second sixty foots, who in their right mind would even "run" a stock LO3, and think its competitive? The fact remains that a stall, and gearing will do much better for the LO3 (against a modded GSX) than just nitrous. Because by the time you hit the trigger, it's too late. You won't even be able to play catch up, because a lightly modded 4g63 (we're talking stock T25, set at 15 pounds, 1g blow off valve, three inch exhaust and a tune), will be running in the 11's with a good driver....

 

this is funny talkin bout what would be better if that talon is already in the 11s scrap the motor rebuild the trans swap in a 12 bolt put in a 350 with vortech or better heads an give her a 200hp of juice now you got a race

 

Just listen to what your saying! Stall and gears will have a better chance to keep up with the talon than nitrous? Then you are also saying that a L03 with stall/gears will out run a completely stock L03 with nitrous.

That 125 shot isn't going to turn the car into a spinning viper it will be a average L98 at best! Something that a average driver can figure out after a couple of practice runs. He will have about 200hp at the wheels at best any stock F-body can handle it.

 

ok well im probably going to run this guy friday night again with the juice so ill let you know how it goes. btw i already bought and installed the juice but i dont have enough money for a stall and i really dont feel like a posi just yet i know i need one and i do want better gears but my cousin has 3.73s and spins with the touch of the gas and i beat him every race because of. i can outlaunch him and his 350

 

The kid is 17 with very little money I'm sure. He wants to go fast real quick and real cheap. I don't think his pockets can factor in a new engine right now anyway. People been doing Nitrous for years on stock cars this is no different let the kid have his fun!

 

Did you beat him with or without Nitrous? Have you tried the system out yet?

 

So were debating whether its better to maybe almost kind of keep up in the first 60' and then get destroyed, or better to get waxed out of the hole, hit the bottle and try and play catch up with a car thats probably still faster???

Personally I dont race 60', and I dont race 2 miles... I run a 1/4 mile race. On the street on a street tire hes probably doomed out of the hole no matter what (short of the perfect tranny, tires and a built rear) so why not play the catch up game your already going to play? Personally if I hold close for 60' and then he kills me, it sucks, whereas if he walks hard out of the hole and you have the juice to play catch up, you stand a better chance.

In the end he is going to play catch up no matter what. Id rather run a 2.2 60' and spray trying to reel someone in, then cut a 2.0 60' (when the other cars gonna dog you out of the hole anyway) and know from then on hes just adding lengths!

 

Simply put, a near stock AWD DSM will rely soley on a great launch. They typically do not trap high MPH wise compared to their ET. The lighter FWD DSM's are the opposite. With that said, mod for mod, I'd rather have the nitrous. With factory stall and gears you can come off the line calm. You should have no problem hooking and spray the top of first gear. I believe the extra 125 HP and 125 Ft. Lbs. will close the gap rapidly. It's very possible that the addition of a high stall converter and gears will make launching difficult, even with a lowly LO3, especially on street tires. Blow the launch and the race is over before it ever began. Also keep in mind that most stock LO3's are running high 15's- low 16's, you can expect solid 14's from any decent running AWD DSM. Besides nitrous, what other mods are going to make up that difference. Granted I'm talking a 1/4 mile race not 60 feet.
As for 305's getting the jump on L98's, I can honestly say I've never seen it myself. Yes, you can blow the launch but with the factory converter, limited slip, 3.23's and 245/50/16's I never had many problems launching. I know modded 305's that will but never had any near stock ones pull me.

 

Same here!

 

I'de rather put lengths on him out of the hole then put on more as the run goes on

 

Okay, umm, let's forget the track for a moment here, and concentrate on "Theoretical and Street Racing", which is what I initially referred to in the first place. I don't know about your neck of the woods 25th, but the majority of street races here don't last 1/4 mile each and every stop light. On the street, the gears and a stall is the obvious choice... not nitrous. Gears and stall are always there, nitrous runs out, and can't be hit the moment the street lights repeatedly turn green.

The LO3 is toast either way you look at it, but at least he'll have some type of dignity keeping up with it during the first sixty feet or so. Much like that classic video that we all seen, with that low 13 second Talon, out launching that red Doug Rippie/Lingenfleter inspired vette. Even though the vette wins easily in the end, and pulls by the Talon in a matter of seconds.... the focus of everybodys attention is on how the Import out launches it.

Vipershark, you have quite a few different opinions on what to do. Good luck with whichever route you go with, and most of all, have fun doing it.

-Lethal

 

very true and if your street racing 200 feet beyond the light your gettin out of it or you are not gonna have a licence gears an a stall. long strip of four lane at three in the morning gears stall an nitro. just nitro an your playin catch up top end youll probally get around him.

 

Nitrous would still help him more.

 

Alright with a PLANNED street race which is what this sounds like its going to be, it wont just be a run from a stop light, it will last more than 300 feet. In my neck of the woods its mostly highway rolls, where the stall means absolutely nothing, so dont just go by my area because then it wont matter what his tranny has done short of a shift kit!

Personally if he wants a quick cheap thing to buy to try and beat that car hes smarter going with a bottle. Whether he has the stall or not the AWD car is going to take him out of the hole.

Here is how it goes, he is going to have to play catch up, his TBI car with a stall and gears will NOT out launch a well driven AWD car. The race will probably last well over 60' and here is where the nitrous shines. If its a race to the 60' mark, then nitrous isnt smart, but who the hell races 60' and calls it a day? I would rather have a car that CAN catch up when I know Im going to have to than a car that can keep close on the launch and then get beat badly!

 

Knowing these cars, the other cars, and street racing fairly well ... gears and stall? C'mon guys. Gears maybe - I can see that argument. But gears AND stall? Combining gears and stall will just cause this guy to burn his tires out of the hole and allow the GSX to launch hard and win. You need something that is going to increase upper RPM power. Gears and stall won't do much in a street race because you can't heat up your drag radials to get a good launch. A higher stall converter is all about getting a good launch. It won't do squat while you are moving. He'll need to become an expert on feathering the throttle with gears + stall and I don't believe that is possible in this case whatsoever.

Launch and then hit the bottle as quick as possible. That's the only way with that crappy POS motor on street tires. IMHO.

t

 

maybe im missing something or im just stupid.. probably alittle of both.. but why do you keep launching in second?

 

I just noticed that as well, second gear launch = BAD. Take the tire pressure down and launch it easy in first you'll be better off. The only reason you would want to launch in second is if you had 4.10 gears, alot of power, and crap tires. It's definetly costing you speed launching in second, the car may jump out hard but then it's lugging to catch it's breath the whole way through. Practice the 1st gear takeoffs with the spray, come out easy and hit it as soon as you get full throttle, if that doesn't work wait till the RPM's come up a bit, if you're still spinning tires wait till second gear. Either way get the launch in 1st down it'll help.

 

Everyone has their own individual method to launching. I'm not talking about a posi inspired 4.56 rear end, along with a 50,000 stall speed. I'm talking about stepping it up some notches over factory. The LO3's launch capabilities, stock, is pathetic... and I can't understand why you would think what I'm saying is irrelevant (note, I know you didn't say "irrelevant", just embellishing on your opinion).

My 3500 stall, and 4.10 gear (with no other mods) dropped my LS1 (I know, different engine, but serves a purpose) from 13.10, to 12.80. The stall speed also made a HUGE difference when running against the neighbor's '00 6-speed Z28 on the highway. I have no idea what your referring to when you say, "A higher stall converter is all about getting a good launch. It won't do squat while you are moving". Yes, a stall is all about getting a good launch, but it's also about keeping the engine in it's desired RPM range during shifts...

Well, we can't assume that the driver of the GSX/TSI to be an excellent launcher. I've seen STI/EVO's cutting 2.20 at the track, with people who've owned them for quite sometime. At least with a stall and gears, he will not be humiliated. What is nitrous going to do? He'll lose anyway, and the owner of the TSI will only rub it in even more (if he's aware) once finished...

Vipershark, don't take this the wrong way, but if that 4g63 is modded the way I think it is, you'll never beat him with your LO3. Unless your racing from off of a cliff to see who gets to the bottom first, your going to lose. Nitrous is an awesome power builder, and proper stall speed and gearing is a must if your planning on running todays factory terrors. I personally dont believe nitrous to be the end all, be all, everytime an anemic engine comes into play. But hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect everyone's that I heard so far.