i ordered my cam for my 86 305 tpi i got it from comp it is the extreme energy it has 212/ 218 at 0.50 and 449/ 456 with 112 lsa how would this cam move my car . running 15.8 in q- mile all i did was gears 3.42 k@n air filter,8mm wires ,aifoil,free flowing muffler

 

please someone? you guys must no if i will gain a second or what kind of power

 

You need to address the intake, heads and eprom before the full potential of the cam will be realized. Of the four mods needed, I recommend eprom burnign first, then modify the intake, then the heads and lastly the cam. A cam by itself on a TPI car doesn't do much and has the potential to make your engine perform poorly.

 

i will port the plenum and for the restrictive air .i will put an slp cold air induction on. with an afpr as for gears i got the 3.42 posi as for the chip i got the hypertech stage 1, as for the exhaust system it has the original 2 2.5 inch coming from manifolds to a 3 inch to the cat and from the cat back it is a 3 inch to a free flowing muffler .
now for the 86 it has the peanut cam where they have done tests that changing the cam made 40 horsepower by it self and cut a full second on 0-60 .

 

"They" do lots of tests, don't they. Sometimes "they" lie a little to get you to buy "their" camshaft.

Take that cam, put it in your closet, and don't install it until you put a set of headers on. It's not a bad cam, but you haven't done the work involved to take full advantage of it. Get youself some heads too, I'd suggest the vortecs with that cam. They have really good low lift flow numbers. That will also require the www.SDPC2000.com vortec manifold. You'll be glad you did it.

 

40 HP does not translate into a full second from 0-60 (unless you have a 30 second car). If I were to believe ALL the manufacturers claims for "HP increases", I should be pushing 500 HP....I'm definitely not.

Often these manufacturers when they do "comparisions" they take an engine, do ALL the mods first to ensure the engine can fully breath (like head/intake) THEN they add their part and compare it to the original part...and that is the HP increase they advertise.

PS: That Hypertech chip does nothing. Save your money and buy the eprom burning equipment or go all out and buy a custom eprom for $300-500 (and even those will not be optimal). But those "off-the-shelf" eproms are garbage. You are better off doing "manual fixes" like bumping up the base timing...but that usually triggers the knock sensor if you go too far. Again, only if you go inside the eprom will you be able to fix that.

Lastly, if you heads are stock, you will experience "detonation" all over the place as you start to advance it. I have found that you need to "clean up" the sharp edges in the combusiton chamber and "smoothen" the surfaces to be able to run extra spark advance WITHOUT detonating...and that's when you start to make power.

 

thanks for your input. the thing is on this site all i been hearing about is this peanut cam(change the cam ) now i go out and buy the cam and you guys tell me it won't work is this a joke or what.besides the point i have everything the same as the 85 305 tpi thats mass air flow sensour ;and a better ecm and better exhaustnow what i read was the real diff is in the cam from the 2 years and i believe there right , so i am not on hear trying to make 50 hp all i want is my 86 305 tpi running mid 14's .

 

by the way the heads that i have now worked well on the 85 and there both the same so like i said thanks for your input i will let you no how it went

 

Anyone who says changing the peanut cam out of an 86 with no other changes wont help doesnt know what they are talking about. There are other things like exhaust and programming that will help, but in my experience are not a requirement.

<-- Owner of an 86 who has done cam changes and has timeslips to prove it.

 

thanks madmax and how did changinging the cam on your 86 help for power i like to no what exhaust you had and gears ext.
thanks man

 

I'd be guessing, but I was able to run .4 and 6mph faster after the cam change. Make of that what you will.
Stock exhaust cept for a dynomax muffler and tips, hypercrap chip, auto tranny stock stall, 3.27 rear (posi), K+N filter, crappy B+M shift kit.

 

Max, before you make a response like that, read the user's original post (cam change giving a full 1 second increase) and then my post (address the intake, heads - cam by itself will not give it's full potential). And yes, a cam change by itself can result in a car that perform poorly. I've seen that too often.

Smoken, you won't see a 1 second improvement from 0-60 with your cam change AND IN SPITE OF WHAT MADMAX says, you DO risk making your car run poorly due to the ECM. MAF cars ARE NOT "modification friendly". In fact, the MAF system used on your car is one of the "first generation" ECMs and frankly, it is not a good one to be all honest.

First, a MAF sensor is strictly a heated wire that the ECM will convert "via internal tables" to derive Air Flow. When the elevation, ambient air temperature or humidity changes this causes an effect on the heated wire which the ECM translates into air flow. Now for the news flash...that translation is not perfect. GM relied too much on the MAF sensor alone. They do not recognize any correction based not the MAT/IAT, it doesn't rely on a MAP sensor for barometric/elevation changes. If you "tune" your 3rd Gen MAF car "perfectly" and then either the elevation or air temp changes - the MAF car "will now be off". Because the "rate of cooling" of the wire based on elevation or air temp is not 'corrected' within the ECM.

For "day to day" driving, it will be okay and most guys won't notice it. But when you start playing with these things and strive for consistency regardless of elevation or air temp, you notice it.

Sorry to tell you this but DON'T rely on the MAF system to correct for your modifications. You will find yourself "unpleasantly surprised". For minor modifications, it will do a "reasonable" job on air flow (within limits). But it does NOTHING for you spark curve or in controlling detonation.

And spark is where the power is - that is why this "myth" that you don't need to modify the eprom on MAF cars is all wrong. MAF cars respond to eprom changes VERY MUCH - especially when you control the spark curve properly.

 

Well I agree he isnt gonna see a 1 second 0-60 change, thats a bit out of line. I was just reading what you first said, which was not that it would not give its full potential, but that the cam by itself "doesn't do much." Sure, tuning the chip is gonna help and so will other things like heads, exhaust, intake... but the fact of the matter is the cam he has sucks and there is much room for improvement there. A chip change with that cam is no more a requirement than it is on a completely stock engine. The ecm is fine too, nothing wrong with an 86 ecm. The 87-88 programming is similar, but I am pretty happy with the swap to the 89 chip I am running now on my 86 ecm.

But that cam will get along fine with his ecm, I've run quite a similar cam (less exhaust duration by 6 degrees and ever so slightly less exhaust lift) on a stock 86 chip that ran no different than stock from a good/bad standpoint.

Not trying to pick on you, but I think maybe you are a little out of the realm of experience here with this particular application.

 

Please be careful what you say to me Madmax or you will find me saying "ditto to you" when it comes to ECMs and programming. You do know my skill level there and how DEEP I have gone into the code.

I have obtained the same results you mentioned with a cam change just by reprogramming the eprom...and yes, it was a basically stock MAF car. The only difference is the car ran smoother and got better gas mileage.

I have yet to find a car (even a bone stock one) that did not respond well to a properly tuned eprom.

But if you want a real "controversial subject", you wait until I tune my recently installed Miniram with mildly ported Aluminum L98 heads WITH THE STOCK CAM!

Right now I am running a "detuned" eprom (I set my timing back from my original setup as I am ensuring everything is fine while I am tuning the fuel tables). But to all those people who say you "loose torque with a Miniram vs. a stock Long Tube Runner, it is absolutely false. This Miniram has MORE TORQUE everywhere except a littl between 3,000-3,500. And there is no comparison after 4,000 rpm. It screams to 5,500 rpm now.

And once I finish the fuel tables and move on to the spark advance, I expect that even that brief range from 3,000-3,500 where the TPI felt just a bit stronger (and mean only a little bit), I expect to fix that too.

ALL WITH THE STOCK CAM! No, it's not the peanut cam, but the L98 cam is no hell either in my books.

And yes, I do have a cam available for it, but I REALLY wanted to see what a Miniram with mildly ported Aluminum L98 heads really does and the answer is A LOT.

Also, now that I have the intake and heads addressed, a cam in my car will REALLY have it's full potential. My problem is that I don't have the money to get a new transmission and rear-end right now, which are most likelyt to die if I had a decent cam installed.

You see, I DO practice what I preach.

 

Yea, but what about return for time and money invested? I spent about $250 and a day to do the cam swap on my car, and IMO got great results. I've spent countless hours (and no doubt you have as well, way more than me for sure) on tuning a chip to get more out of a car. I've also spent nearly a grand just to do it, between all the parts and stuff I needed to acquire to get decent data. Granted, you could find stuff cheaper if you were lucky or spent more time with it or had an EE degree, but I dont and I dont have the time, luck, or patience to pick up a laptop for $50 like some people around here. I actually had to PAY for mine. Its great that you can get such good results out of some tuning, but not all of us are that skilled or that lucky. I'd question that I could even get half of what you did out of prom changes and I feel I know a fair amount about what to change and how.

Like I said before, I know with prom tuning you can get good results. However, if you have been following this guy's posts at all (and no offense to him either, I've been there myself before) he would have a long path to travel to get as much out of a prom as he would out of a cam swap, especially on that car. I owned one, I've been there, I know what I would do if I were in his shoes. Today, I'd probably do the same thing. To me spending hours upon hours making small modifications to a chip isnt any fun, its work. If that floats your boat, more power to you. I think the return for the time and money invested just isnt there, not for a person with no knowledge and no tools to attack a prom.

As for what you quoted, you said the 86 ecm was a 'first generation' and would be difficult to deal with. IMO its not, you just change the chip. I read that as it being the same as an 85 ecm, which is an entirely different ball of wax and really is the 'first generation' and a total PITA to deal with, not to mention that as far as MAF's and ecm's go, it IS the best way to compare MAF to SD if you wanna wave the SD banner, simply because of the cost of the MAF module. You could buy a DFI for what a MAF module costs. I think you'll agree that just changing the chip from the 86 to an 89 is a simple solution. Even taking an 89 305 auto chip (which is what I did) and turning off the VATS makes a huge difference all for the cost of $35 plus my burning stuff that I already have. I'd even do it for someone, if they wanted.

Again, I mean no offense to you. I just think if you weigh the knowledge and tools needed to burn a prom against the knowledge and cost to stick a cam in there (and I get the impression he is going to do it himself and has enough knowledge to do so) that its the best route for him at this point in time, not only from a time invested standpoint but a money invested standpoint as well.

 

1985 tpi ecm #1226870 prom and calpac design
1986-1989 tpi ecm #1227165 mem-cal design
so another words from 86 to 89 everything was the same on the tpi engines

 

Well, the ecm itself is the same from 86-89. The chip, which has all the programming on it from fuel curves to timing curves, vats, etc etc is different each year and different during the years as well. Not to mention different for different engine sizes.

 

Sure you could. I won't get into the SD issue (if you really looked at it and played with SD tuning, I think you would REALLY learn to love it). But you could gain a lot of power just with playing with the right mixture and spark. The biggest problem I've found on these engines are the stock heads. You DON'T even have to port them. Just cleaning up that combustion chamber can go a long way to reducing detonation, getting more spark advance and more power.

I almost think there should be a law that requires people to learn eprom burning BEFORE they even touch a wrench to their car. I wish I had gotten into it far sooner, but glad that I did before I started to mod my engine. In fact, I delayed my modifications BECAUSE I decided to learn eprom burning FIRST. And I am glad I did. When my "exercise" is finished, I plan to do an article on how to "draft a bin" for SD and then how to optimize it. I believe that ANYONE can "draft" an intial bin that other than playing with the "injector constant and/or fuel pressure" they will be able to modify their SD engine and immeditately drive around with it running a smooth as from the factory (an possibly in better tune - the stock programming leaves so much room for improvement). And, then with a little more effort you can "dial in" those fuel tables and move onto "spark" (the fun part that yields the power).

I consider ALL the 8 bit processors (including the 7730 SD) first generaion ECMs. I would call the 86-88 GM's 2nd revision and the 1989 3rd revisioin. But I agree that the best thing to do with an 1985 is upgrade - to ANYTHING.

Yes, if a person were to come visit me and wish to improve his car BUT did not want to convert to SD, then I would go with the 1989. I am finding the best method is to take one of the later 1989 Bins and then "graft" the MAF Scalar Tables from the ARAP bin. In fact, cut the WHOLE AREA from the first byte of the MAF Scalar Tables in the ARAP Bin to the last byte of the MAF Scalar Tables (there are some important info there that people always miss, I don't think TunerCat has even defined those yet). And, then start playing with the spark table.

I guess my opinion is that if you WANT to modify an EFI car, then the person should learn about the EFI system first...and that means the eprom. I think you would admit that when you first started to "dive into" eprom burning, you too found it a lot easier than you initially thought. The tough part is the "tuning", but I still say "tuning" EFI is much easier than a carb - a person just have to overcome that inital "learning curve".

BUT, now that this poster HAS purchased his cam AND is about to install it, this is what I would STILL recommend that he look at, now that he's committed to the cam

1) Do something with that intake. Though I personally would recommend John Millican's modified LT1 intake ($400) based on MY personal experiences with the Miniram on a basically stock engine...ANYTHING is better than "bone stock". Port it AT LEAST.

And I DO recommend the modified LT1 intake on a 305. It DOES NOT ruin low end torque...in fact, you will notice gains below <2,500 rpm.

2) While heads would be nice, AT LEAST clean up the combusion chamber. There is so many sharp edges on the stock heads (even the Aluminum L98 heads) that it is highly prone to detonation. I haven't had a chance to FULLY test the spark advance yet (I have other committments until the first week in August), but so far, on the brief tests that I've done. A simple clean up of the combustion chamber is allowing me to increase my base spark advane (without audible detonation occurring) about 4-6*. With "as from the factory" stock heads, I found 25-27* was about as far as you can go (when you "cap" the Knock sensor to 1* of max retard). That 4-6* extra spark advance makes a big difference in power from my intial tests.

3) Do get into eprom burning. Even bone stock MAF cars will benefit with a little tuning (and greatly with a lot of tuning) AND the cost of the gas savings from invoking Highway Mode quickly pays itself back. This is one of the few modifications where you can actually save money in the long run - all due to fuel savings.

A further benefit of getting into eprom burning, you will quickly learn what the ECM can REALLY do, and what it cannot. There is a lot of "mis-information" where people think the ECM "self-learns". There is SOME learning capability, but it is far more simplistic than most people think.

Lastly, if you modify your engine in the future, you will know better how to address the eprom. You won't have to worry whether the modification you plan to make is "computer friendly or not". You can make virtually anything "computer friendly" if you take the time.

 

I knew this already. This is where your opinion is 180 from mine. This statement reminds me of years ago, when everyone said you could not modify a computer controlled car, and the reason being was the programming. Countless people time and time again since then have done amazing things on stock programming, totally ignoring the insinuation that you couldnt modify a computer controlled car. I hardly think its a requirement. Read the latest Hot Rod? The 89 Formula running 10's on a SLP chip (which as you know, may as well be a stock chip)? Before you run off and say what that car could run with chip modifcations, keep in mind that unless I'm guessing wrong (and I doubt it), it'll suck the doors right off your car. On an essentially stock chip. My point? There are a million ways to go fast. It doesnt matter how you get there, as long as you get there. Just because your programming is 'perfect' doesnt automatically put it in front.

 

guys i would like to thank you both for your info now you guys seem to no your stuff when it comes to tpi .now tell me how would i make my 305 tpi respectible (14.3-14.8) i no the 845 iroc 305 tpi ran 14.95 .anyways i best friend has an lg4 305 trans am last year we raced each other we were both stock i ate him for lunch i mean he wasn't in my mirrors, this year comes around and he bought an edelbrock performer intake,carb 600, and the same exhaust that i have it is the 350 tpi exhaust .guess what he whips my ***.i even went and put 3.42 gears in my car he still beats me he runs 15.2 in the q-mile now guys give me your honest opinion should i get rid of the tpi for a carb, maybe with that cam i would run some good #####

 

You and I both know they had to address the fuel issue. There is no way you can run 10s without maxxing the MAF (which means the SLP chip is woefully inadequate if this is the sole method to address fuel). I've played with MAF cars long enough to know that usually a MAF car hitting deep into 12s is maxing the MAF. 10s? Of course it is. Thus the ECM can no longer correct for fuel. Therefore they have to add more fuel OR they will detonate. You and I both know that.

You can use "mechanical methods" (like massive injectors) to make a car deliver enough fuel for a "single purpose", (say drag racing). But there is no way that car will run properly in closed loop. Or they have done "other" mechanical methods like an FMU. There is obviously a lot of information not given, especially about "fuel delivery" and whether that car is running properly on the street.

You and I both know that many magazines and newspapers DON'T tell you the whole story. Much like the recent "Elvis sightings".

 

Maybe, but some guy owns the car (not a magazine buildup job) and supposedly has the stock shortblock, a fistful of timeslips, and a blue baby bottle in the back of the car. I know a guy locally who was at least running low 12's on a TPIS prom. I'll have to find his info too. Its not news really either, there are lots of fast cars out there on stock programming if you really look around. You and I both know theres much to be desired on even a stock engine, let alone a modified one, but I dont think its a death warrant to forget the chip and just go after the engine. BTW, that Formula I am pretty sure is a single purpose car at this point in time, from what they said about it.

<---- Running low 14's and maxing the MAF.

 

My opinion- On an 86 car, i'd go for the cam just about first thing. Even before headers. Time and time again, the peanut cam just can't produce results. The best of relatively modded peanut cars run the very low 90mph range. At best that'll get you mid 14s.

And that is why i can believe i could easily believe a 1 second 1/4 mile increase and 3-6 mph. How do i figure. Average peanut cam car runs ~16 flat. Average L98 cammed 305 runs ~15 flat. And thats ignoring a lot of relatively quick stock SD 305s, to which there is no peanut equivalent (i.e. more 14.2 92 305s, than 15.2 86s)

All well and good if you want to get into the chip once you start getting a little further. There is other stuff to learn in the mean time, and in the case of a peanut car, the cam is in the goddamn way, lol. Stock car results show that much.

 

Sorry, but I stand by my comment. I doubt he will see a 1 second improvement from 0-60 (see his third post) - not 1/4 mile....but I doubt that too. A 1 second improvement in the 1/4 mile equates to approximately 75 HP in a 3,400 lb car (sans driver with minimal fuel).

Ed, look at his car and mods (3.42s, K&N filter, wires and air foil and "free flowing exhaust). You have (from you sig) headers, tuning and a TC. Your car runs about 1 second quicker than his from 0-60. Do you think with the cam alone (no tuning...nothing else done) that he is going to "hang" with you?

PS: Why aren't any of you guys warning him that if he doesn't get the timing cover properly with the oil pan that he is most likely going to have an oil leaker? Also, the TPI intake is really not "fun" to re-install. Only the pita Superram beats the TPI for "fun of installation". This is why I am suggesting other alternatives that will attain the same (if not better) effect, with a lot less hassle.

 

guys relax i really don't want to hang with you all i want is some good advice i really want to keep the tpi but if a carb is better than so be it but looking at ed's times 14.1 is awsome for me now tell me what can i do to get my car runnig 14.1 .when i get the cam installed i'm going to port the plenum and clean all the carbon off,the the car has only 22000 miles on it the runners have never been off the car hasn't even been broken in yet .another one of my friends has a 91 rs with a 350 vortec engine in it goes like snot he uses the same exhaust as me it is the same as the 350 tpi cars which are pretty good for a 305 .

 

Glenn, i run 0-60 in about 5 seconds flat. My et is all built in my strong launch. A peanut cam car is going to be a couple of seconds off of that. If you read one of his later posts he says " even went and put 3.42 gears in my car he still beats me he runs 15.2 in the q-mile " - this is what a 15.2 car looks like next to mine, the RTs were similar...http://home1.gte.net/res0t8sj/vert/extension.jpg

But yes, i do think a 16 flat peanut cam car could run even high 14s, WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A CAM SWAP. Even with small TBI sized exhaust, 2.73s and being a tank i ran 15.2 stock, just because my 305 has the good cam. A lighter coupe, with bigger exhaust easily, and does run faster than that.

And no amount of PROM tuning is going to make up for the peanut cam, it is simply mechanically junk, and thats why just a difference in cam can be over a second difference in stock ET. It just doesn't flow air. If we were talking about an L98 cammed 305, i'd agree with you that a cam isn't a good first move. Exhibit A, have i done a cam swap yet? But

 

ed mayer thats a good 0-60 5 flat my car gets there 7.4 seconds and finishes the q-mile at 15.7 so with that cam i'm putting in and my 3 inch exhaust with those 3.42's ,and a ported plenum .i'm also getting an afpr .what can you see my car running hopefully 0-60 in 6 flat and q-mile in the 14.5's????? thanks

 

I want to put my two cents in here too. Don't look at user name and think I'm a newbie. I have years of experience with 3rd gens AND eeprom tuning. Here's my experience with MY fbody and what gains I got from different partsI put on it in the last 4 years.

The cam upgrade netted me a full second decrease in my ETs. Went to a 210/220 cam from stock.

EPROM changes made it 2-3 tenths quicker in addition to the cam.
No matter what I did to the TPI, the car did not get ANY faster. Had a different lower base and different runners. Nothing...

Now I'm running a carburator and a much bigger cam (240/250 duration). The car is about 2 seconds faster then my previous setup with the TPI.

I'm getting sick of always have to tune the carb so I'm switching to an LT1 intake and going back to EPROM burning..

For a guy with a stock car, I would definetly reccommend a camshaft and better cylinder heads first before EPROM burning. This will allow you to get MUCH better aquinted to your engine, therefore making it a lot easier to burn EPROMs.

 

odyssy was your car a peanut cammed 305 if it was then you can talk if you had the 350 you had a decent cam and yes i wouldn't make any more power

 

"then I can talk" ? LOL

If I started out with a decent cam and gained a lot, then YOU starting out with a smaller cam dont you think you would gain more ?

Do whatever you want buddy. I started out with a 350, now I have a 406. My car runs mid 11s on motor. Does yours ? When it does... then YOU can "talk".